Thread: Occupy Dreamviews

Originally Posted by Xei

But you agreed with him? Herp.

"most of your and other countries problems are caused by the failing economy."

^ the above statement means that the economy is secondary to environmental and security problems.

Yeah, the above quote might seem that way when you cut off the first half of it and ignore the rest of my post/s.

People who claim the economy should come second will have a hard time fixing other problems if the economy actually does "come second."

It was mentioned earlier that Occupy Wall Street is at the "root" of the problem, but this is a multi-rooted problem. Why aren't we occupying THIS building too?



The root of the problem isn't only the bankers and investing firms who were incentivised for malinvestment, but the system that gave out faulty incentives. In the wake of the Dot Com bubble when the Fed manipulated interest rates to increase bond transactions, it was actually mortgage bundles that were being traded under the new, lower rates. Banks were encouraged to loan more under a false rate since they were getting both lower rates, and Fannie and Freddie were getting subsidized while issuing funds to banks for subprime loans.

It's not just Wall Street's fault... they were simply doing what you would NORMALLY do if the market wasn't manipulated. Unfortunately for them, it was manipulated.

The market is essentially just a bunch of dudes betting their money. It's not a secret club either, anybody can do it. What's sinister about that? Somebody please explain how vilifying investors is anything but a colossal derp?

How can the problem lie anywhere except government?

Originally Posted by Xei

The market is essentially just a bunch of dudes betting their money. It's not a secret club either, anybody can do it. What's sinister about that? Somebody please explain how vilifying investors is anything but a colossal derp?

How can the problem lie anywhere except government?

In b4 the word "greed" is brought up as if everybody doesn't act in their own self-interest.

The majority of the fault lies with the government. However, investors were stupid enough to NOT see how investing in a government-backed and subsidised industry might be bad...

While they have good intentions at Occupy Wall Street, do they not see how much of a part the Federal Reserve had in this financial crisis?

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

The majority of the fault lies with the government. However, investors were stupid enough to NOT see how investing in a government-backed and subsidised industry might be bad...

Bad investors should lose the money they gambled. Surely this is how it works? Making stupid investments isn't immoral, it's just that - stupid - and in any decent system it should just have the natural comeuppances.

Originally Posted by Xei

Bad investors should lose the money they gambled. Surely this is how it works? Making stupid investments isn't immoral, it's just that - stupid - and in any decent system it should just have the natural comeuppances.

It SHOULD be how it works, yes. Bad investors should have had the foresight. Banks who were foolish shouldn't have been REWARDED either... Goldman Sachs was given 10 billion for failing to function.

No such thing as "too big to fail." The greater the boom, the more painful a market correction will be, and the Federal Reserve is attempting to stretch out the market correction with quantitative easing... so instead of letting it hit us hard and fast, they will force us to suffer through economic recession for an extra couple of years.

Originally Posted by Xei

The market is essentially just a bunch of dudes betting their money. It's not a secret club either, anybody can do it. What's sinister about that? Somebody please explain how vilifying investors is anything but a colossal derp?

How can the problem lie anywhere except government?

On the one hand, I agree. The government should be above corruption, they should know that they should refuse bribes, not give favors for campaign contributions, etc. On the other hand, I look at our government and I see a lot of people who used to work officially for the financial corporations and most likely still do, and will continue to long after they leave office. They are essentially regulating themselves. They are passing legislation that benefits themselves. They are bailing themselves out with public funds. If you want to change things, do you go to where they pretend to work for the government or do you go to where they really work, the companies like Goldman Sachs, BofA, jpmorgan, etc.? It isn't about trying to get the attention of the people who are committing the crimes. They already know what they are doing. It's about getting the people to realize where the real seat of power is in this country.

Funny you mention them, because the top contributors to Obama and Romney (and Pawlenty) in the second quarter were all banks, Goldman Sachs was one of them, so was Morgan-Stanley.

Ron Paul was the only candidate who had ANY branch of the military in his top 20. (All 3, Army, Navy, and Air Force were in his top 7.) He doesn't have any bank support, because he doesn't support them back.

Same goes for Gary Johnson but to a lesser extent. He's mostly small business-financed.

Wall Street isn't the issue, the government is. All the power to Occupy Wall Street, but it won't solve anything until they start supporting efforts like Americans Elect and candidates who care like Kucinich or Paul.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

On the one hand, I agree. The government should be above corruption, they should know that they should refuse bribes, not give favors for campaign contributions, etc. On the other hand, I look at our government and I see a lot of people who used to work officially for the financial corporations and most likely still do, and will continue to long after they leave office. They are essentially regulating themselves. They are passing legislation that benefits themselves. They are bailing themselves out with public funds. If you want to change things, do you go to where they pretend to work for the government or do you go to where they really work, the companies like Goldman Sachs, BofA, jpmorgan, etc.? It isn't about trying to get the attention of the people who are committing the crimes. They already know what they are doing. It's about getting the people to realize where the real seat of power is in this country.

Still government. The banks still only have power through its ties to government. Want to stop this? Stop voting for politicians who do it.

It's all about government and it can all be fixed by a willing, educated electorate.

The electorate isn't educated or willing? Well, democracy's a bitch.

Originally Posted by Xei

The banks still only have power through its ties to government.

10 Points to Gryffindor!

Also, End the Fed, and whatnot.

LIST OF PROPOSED "DEMANDS FOR CONGRESS"

CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" H.R. 1489: Return to Prudent Banking Act of 2011 (GovTrack.us) ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act#Repeal . Vote Here

USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list. Vote Here

CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media. Vote Here

CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's. Vote Here

CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.

CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS. Vote Here

CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control. Vote Here

ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". THE CORPORATION [2/23] Birth - YouTube . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.

Originally Posted by Xei

Still government. The banks still only have power through its ties to government. Want to stop this? Stop voting for politicians who do it.

It's all about government and it can all be fixed by a willing, educated electorate.

The electorate isn't educated or willing? Well, democracy's a bitch.

The electorate isn't educated in large part because some of the same people behind the corporate coup of our government own all the major media outlets in our country. Wonder why you haven't heard about Occupy Wall st. in the news? Probably because Billionaire Mayor Bloomberg of new york happens to have his own media conglomerate and doesn't want anyone to know what is going on. The major media of this country is controlled by just 5 corporations.

Actually it's probably because I'm British. But what do you suggest doing about it? It seems to me that the American public is too stupid to understand rationality and scepticism; the information is freely available, you just have to have the sense to go and get it rather than being spoonfed bollocks by some corporation or other.

The people of this country need to accept responsibility. We are to used to being spoonfed, as you say. I think one solution would be to actually strike at the heart of the problem, education. We have one of the worst education systems in the first world. Our government has been purposely raising the citizens to be stupid dependent and lazy. We've been taught that we are entitled to the benefits of one of the largest economies on the planet without doing anything to deserve those benefits. Instead of cutting education to finance debt and bail out the financial sector, we should be funneling as many resources to our schools as we can afford, and reforming the way those schools teach our children. We should take the power to define our curriculum out of the hands of a few text book publishers in Texas of all places and actually set rational and informed standards for what should be taught.

I meant to say something about your "stop voting for politicians..." comment. The problems that we are facing are so deep that voting doesn't really seem to have much of an effect any more. Looking only at the presidency, how am I supposed to vote for someone who doesn't work for the corporations when the corporations are choosing who gets put on the ballot? When I have only 2 choices and both of them are corporate stooges, what on earth can I hope to accomplish through voting?

But of course, that would require the people to vote sensibly to change said spending (in order for them to be educated well enough to realise that they should vote sensibly...). We're back to the same problem.

Edit: the OWS protests just made it across the pond to the BBC news front page as a result of mass arrests.

Originally Posted by tommo

YES!!!! GO!!!!

And encourage everyone you know to go as well!

This is the time to make a change.

Ya I'm for sure going now and I'm bringing some friends from work too. I'm mainly going to document the event, Ill post some pictures as soon as possible(probably Thursday night or Friday). I don't plan on rioting or anything of that sort but I do want to show my support and document it. These are some pretty crazy times we are living in...

I'm just nervous about the police instigating violence to delegitimize the demonstration. I hope its a peaceful march I'm not into the wannabe anarchist black bloc bullshit.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

I'm just nervous about the police instigating violence to delegitimize the demonstration. I hope its a peaceful march I'm not into the wannabe anarchist black bloc bullshit.

Exercise caution in that respect. It doesn't take much to get caught up with the wrong crowd in the chaos of a protest, you DON'T want to end up with a criminal record... Ideology is all fun and games but that would really fuck up your life later on.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

People who claim the economy should come second will have a hard time fixing other problems if the economy actually does "come second."

Yeah a good economy is always a sign of a happy populace.

Extremest sarcasm possible ^

It's not impossible to use the system to try and beat the system. Ron Paul has been doing it for 12 Congressional terms, Gary Johnson did it, Dennis Kucinich does it...

Oh yeah. This: Americans Elect 2012 | The first direct presidential nomination

If you're registered to vote and an American, you should probably join this organization.

Originally Posted by Xei

Want to stop this? Stop voting for politicians who do it.

That's not possible in the united states. The ruling class decides who can run for office, the people only get to vote on the ones they pick out for us. A congress campaign costs about two million dollars, and presidential campaigns cost even more. Only the top 1% can afford to finance those, and the require something back when they do. Bribery is legal in the usa, we just don't call it bribery, we call it lobbying. If the ruling class doesn't like someone who is running, they simply give the guy they do like suitcases full of money to saturate the market with more ads. Getting elected isn't about the views of the politician, it's about how well their marketing department is. We only get to see the political views at the very very end.

Only in extreme cases can the people actually get someone elected. Obama is the only one in a very very long time who did not accept bribes, and that was only possible due to the overwhelming Fuck Bush attitude.

On a very related note, Chase Bank (one of the one's who helped cause the financial meltdown) just "donated" 4.2 million dollars to the NYPD. The timing and the fact that they've never done anything like that before is indicative that they are trying to buy the cops to get the protesters to be quiet because people are starting to take notice.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Obama is the only one in a very very long time who did not accept bribes, and that was only possible due to the overwhelming Fuck Bush attitude.

I'm pretty sure that Obama's presidential campaign was funded by the Bank of America..

Originally Posted by stormcrow

I'm pretty sure that Obama's presidential campaign was funded by the Bank of America..

You are right, my mistake. It wasn't bank of America though. No one can run for any office without the permission / financial backing of the corporate giants.