Thread: Why do we think Lucifer is bad and God is good?

The Bible is God's book, and we've only heard that story from it so I'd say, unless Lucifer writes his own holy text, we will never hear both sides of the conflict so we can make an unbiased decision.

glad to see im still featured on the front page here. thank you all, thank you.

Originally Posted by Silent_Lucidity

Hahahaha. Crying in chains in Hell sounds like some kind of human concept of Hell, not divine.

Funny, I've always thought a divine concept of Hell is simply total separation from that divine entity.

Hey, look! I'm back.

Originally Posted by TheGritz

The Bible is God's book, and we've only heard that story from it so I'd say, unless Lucifer writes his own holy text, we will never hear both sides of the conflict so we can make an unbiased decision.

Not quite!
After talking for a couple hours with one of Satan's five sons (he was indwelling the body of a guy I met), I have a bit of a better perspective on this.


A: God was and is and shall be. He is outside of time and space and all limitations. He is first, and He is ultima. The is no "beyond God". There just isn't.

B: Satan. That guy? Yeah, he rebelled. That's the basis of the answer to your question.

C. When you decide to forever pit yourself against God (who is the only One who is not finite), it doesn't matter who or what you are, you are going to lose and you are going to be labeled as the "bad guy".
It's just like in human life; the winner writes history and the greater power is assumed to be "good" until it is overthrown.

D. Because God is the infinite ultima above all, he will never be overthrown.

Ergo, Satan will always be "the bad guy", since he will always be below God. Satan was created, and thus must lose.

HOWEVER...
If you really hate God for some petty, human reason (or if you happen to start chatting with demons a lot and you agree with their prideful grudge against God), then you might consider joining forces with them. I mean, if you only want to exist to give God a whiny "fuck you!", then Satanism is right up your alley!


Anyways. That's what I've got to say.

Originally Posted by Signet

A: God was and is and shall be. He is outside of time and space and all limitations. He is first, and He is ultima. The is no "beyond God". There just isn't.

B: Satan. That guy? Yeah, he rebelled. That's the basis of the answer to your question.

C. When you decide to forever pit yourself against God (who is the only One who is not finite), it doesn't matter who or what you are, you are going to lose and you are going to be labeled as the "bad guy".
It's just like in human life; the winner writes history and the greater power is assumed to be "good" until it is overthrown.

D. Because God is the infinite ultima above all, he will never be overthrown.

Ergo, Satan will always be "the bad guy", since he will always be below God. Satan was created, and thus must lose.

HOWEVER...
If you really hate God for some petty, human reason (or if you happen to start chatting with demons a lot and you agree with their prideful grudge against God), then you might consider joining forces with them. I mean, if you only want to exist to give God a whiny "fuck you!", then Satanism is right up your alley!


Anyways. That's what I've got to say.

You seem to be implicitly equating "good" with "powerful".
Whether or not God is the the 'ultima' does not necessarily have anything to do with whether or not he is good. I don't doubt you when you say that rebelling against an all powerful (or even just very powerful) entity will mean you lose and that you will be labeled the "bad guy", especially if that powerful entity has followers and wants to uphold a reputation.

But if you consider examples such as the obvious Hitler, you see the problem. He was seen as "the good", he was powerful enough to do the same thing that you say God does to Satan; He can make any rebel lose and can label them as the "bad guy". It is possible that the only difference between the two is that God, as you say, cannot lose, whereas Hitler eventually did.

If that is the case, and it may be - because as it has been pointed out before, we can't make an unbiased decision - then none of his power and none of his limitlessness makes him any good. You might even say it makes him that much worse; If I actually believed in him, I would definitely be on Satan's side, (except he might be worse, but I guess I'm going by the "the enemy of my enemy"-principle) and God would be like the Final Boss.

The fact that he is unbeatable does not give me any less reason to object. I'd rather be a rebel and lose against a tyrant than give in to his tyranny. One could go so far as to say that siding with him due to his power would be cowardly. I find it to be an intriguing fantasy; imagine if humanity's quest was to unveil the lies of God and ultimately to overthrow an omnipotent ruler. That would be so cool.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Signet

If you really hate God for some petty, human reason

Human reasoning is all that we have, since we are humans. If our human reasons are not good enough, then why are they good enough when they are used to determine God as the right answer? If we conclude that human reasoning isn't capable of making the right decisions, then we can't trust any of our decisions; be it a decision to rebel against God, or a decision to let God be our guide - both decisions are initially made through human reasoning.

If what I read from that quote is correct, then you agree that "God works in mysterious ways", in other words, our human minds will find that his Godly reasoning is objectionable, such as when he asks Abraham to kill his son, or when he kills innocent people using natural disasters, but the reason why we object is because our human minds are simply too weak to see things the right way.

But to that I say, that very same idea (The idea that our human reasons are petty and insufficient) is necessarily an idea that started in the human reasoning; and thus the rejection of reason is paradoxically a product of petty human reasons itself.

Originally Posted by Maeni

If we conclude that human reasoning isn't capable of making the right decisions, then we can't trust any of our decisions; be it a decision to rebel against God, or a decision to let God be our guide - both decisions are initially made through human reasoning.

And therein lies one part of the basis for being a follower of Christ. Since we humans ultimately can't guide ourselves through life properly, we must rely on the omniscience of Yaweh to guide us.

Obviously, at that point one has to be able to believe the Bible (as it is the basis for such a life), but that's not the question that this thread is addressing.

Originally Posted by Signet

And therein lies one part of the basis for being a follower of Christ. Since we humans ultimately can't guide ourselves through life properly, we must rely on the omniscience of Yaweh to guide us.

Obviously, at that point one has to be able to believe the Bible (as it is the basis for such a life), but that's not the question that this thread is addressing.

But choosing to rely on God is still a self-guided decision, and that's the paradox I was trying to point out. Believing in the Bible is something humans choose, it is a decision they make based on what they feel and what they think makes sense about the world. They come to the conclusion (through human reasoning) that their own reasoning isn't sufficient, and then they reject it because of their own human reasons, and then they follow the Bible because that's what feels right according to their human reasons.

I did actually hear of a group of "Satanists" that don't actually worship the evil side to the devil. They believe that "Satan" or "Lucifer" or whatever you want to call him is actually the one that humans should be worshiping. They believe that he freed us from God by giving us the ability to think for ourselves and giving us free-will. They do not see him as an evil deity, they see him as the true "Benevolent God".

Originally Posted by Maeni

But choosing to rely on God is still a self-guided decision, and that's the paradox I was trying to point out. Believing in the Bible is something humans choose, it is a decision they make based on what they feel and what they think makes sense about the world. They come to the conclusion (through human reasoning) that their own reasoning isn't sufficient, and then they reject it because of their own human reasons, and then they follow the Bible because that's what feels right according to their human reasons.

Um, excuse me? I already said that's not the issue at hand. Another arguement. For another time. Onegaishimasu, sensei?

Well I mostly did speak about the issue at hand, I only got response to that other part though, so I figured why not engage in the discussion since it came up. Since it's related. But alright. Mind responding to what I said about what you said about the difference between good and evil, then? I mean you don't have to, but if you're intent on not talking about off-topic things, surely that means you want to speak about the actual topic? So do you still think that God must be good guy just because he is unbeatable?

I only presented it that way because I didn't want my own personal bias to influence what I said. So I just went with what I'd heard from the possessed dude and what little logic I could muster.