Thread: Google Announces Privacy Policy Changes Across Products. No Opt-Out.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Okay I may be opening a can of worms here but... Why should we be unhappy with the patriot act? The world is heading towards zero privacy anyway, and if you've got nothing to hide why should you be unhappy?

I despise this "nothing to hide" argument and greatly wish it would be dragged out the back and summarily executed, and proponents of it beaten with large pointy sticks. My business is not your concern, just because I have "nothing to hide". My personal life is likely not something anyone would be particularly interested in, but people still have a fundamental right and expectation of privacy regardless.

Further, EVERYONE has information they want to keep secret, or at least limit who has that knowledge. A classic but fairly trivial example is claiming you have plans to avoid an invitation from someone without hurting their feelings where obviously you do not want them to find out it was a lie.

If you have nothing to hide, then publicly post all your personal information and all kinds of aspects of your life for the world to see. Not going to? No, I didn't think so either.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

I despise this "nothing to hide" argument and greatly wish it would be dragged out the back and summarily executed, and proponents of it beaten with large pointy sticks. My business is not your concern, just because I have "nothing to hide". My personal life is likely not something anyone would be particularly interested in, but people still have a fundamental right and expectation of privacy regardless.

Further, EVERYONE has information they want to keep secret, or at least limit who has that knowledge. A classic but fairly trivial example is claiming you have plans to avoid an invitation from someone without hurting their feelings where obviously you do not want them to find out it was a lie.

If you have nothing to hide, then publicly post all your personal information and all kinds of aspects of your life for the world to see. Not going to? No, I didn't think so either.

Right I see what you're saying. But whilst I do have personal stuff I wouldn't like everyone to know, if everyone knowing that stuff would literally save lives or make society a better place I would gladly give up my petty privacy. It's the way society is heading anyway, despite all the "privacy is a right" people, and I'd like to think that in the distant future society will be full of people who a) gladly give up all privacy, and b) don't really care if everyone finds out their flaws or humiliating little secrets.

Who cares if you get a little embarrassed or hurt a few people's feelings, maybe lose a few friends. Be proud of who you are, and understand that total openness is one of the keys to a harmonious society.

Ok that sounded really preachy but please don't hate me.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

if you've got nothing to hide why should you be unhappy?

FUCK this argument. I'm so sick of it.

What happens when the government or police decide something you have done is illegal? Like looking up porn which is too "risque", for example,
or looking up how to grow Cannabis, or whatever else.
I've probably committed every "conspiracy to" law in the books through my internet searches. When mostly I'm just curious.

Seriously, if you really believe what you said, I literally am scared for the future.

Originally Posted by tommo

I've probably committed every "conspiracy to" law in the books through my internet searches.

No you haven't.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Who cares if you get a little embarrassed or hurt a few people's feelings, maybe lose a few friends. Be proud of who you are, and understand that total openness is one of the keys to a harmonious society.

In a society where people are already being denied employment, because job owners are judging them on completely unrelated, outside of work activities, that are evidenced on Facebook? Right. Good luck with that.

People need secrets for the same reason that I said - in another thread - that I wouldn't put my DV activity on my resume; because most people are not that open-minded to the quirks of others. And being progressive does not mean stripping people of their privacy rights, to try to force that kind of open-mindedness on the populace....mainly because it won't work, and people are likely to become resentful. In your view of a 'harmonious society', do you think we should allow the government to put video cameras in our homes? Think of all the domestic violence cases and burglaries it would help prevent!

Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero

In your view of a 'harmonious society', do you think we should allow the government to put video cameras in our homes? Think of all the domestic violence cases and burglaries it would help prevent!

Absolutely! Total control and surveillance. But obviously for that to work both people and the government need to be generally a lot more open minded and considerate. And like you say, that can't be forced just by suddenly taking away privacy. But in my opinion, gradual degradation of privacy is the first step towards everyone becoming more open minded, more considerate, and more focussed on a goal of a suffering-free society.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Absolutely! Total control and surveillance. But obviously for that to work both people and the government need to be generally a lot more open minded and considerate. And like you say, that can't be forced just by suddenly taking away privacy. But in my opinion, gradual degradation of privacy is the first step towards everyone becoming more open minded, more considerate, and more focussed on a goal of a suffering-free society.

It's quite ironic how you think the people and governments have to be much more progressive before something so totalitarian and Orwellian can occur, given that they're the antithesis of each other.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

It's quite ironic how you think the people and government have to be much more progressive before something so totalitarian and Orwellian can occur, given that they're the antithesis of each other.

It could be possible to have a society with total surveillance but where everyone is happy. I don't know if you've heard of Iain M Banks, but in his books he writes about a society so advanced that there is no money, you can have anything you want, and no one commits crime (or very rarely) because a) they know it is damaging for society, and b) they know that they are constantly under watch and the crime would be almost impossible to commit, and if they did manage then they would be assigned a drone for the rest of their lives to stop them from doing it again (an enormous humiliation). The society works because it is 'run' (although there is no heirarchy and the society is a total democracy) by super-intelligent 'minds', which are far beyond AIs and infinitely more intelligent and sentient than humans. Yet the minds look after the humans and give them anything they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

What I'm trying to say is that there can be a perfect society where there is no privacy, no locks on doors, no information that can't be found out, but where people still respect eachother and there is no, or little, suffering.

However Iain Banks himself has said that for this society to arise from our current one, there would have to be much genetic engineering to basically make sure that everyone is nice and selfless, and will gladly give up privacy for the greater good of a large and prosperous civilization. And I'm sure lots of people would be happy with genetic purging so it's probably not going to happen, at least not by choice.