Israel-Gaza Crisis

**Beefer** · 11-23-2012 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by areyoume

First of all, you said that you tried to stay but couldn't.well, I think that you didn't try hard enaugh! Yes you heared me right.As an example, my dear country was colinized by france for 130 years.France tried every and each single thing to make my country "which is Algeria" a part of france.They killed, they tortured, they tried to get the Algerians out of their own country, but they couldn't.They demolished schools and build new french schools in the malicious attempte to erase our national constituents.I can go on and on like this forever.We never gave up!
About the plans.even if the arab aproved to that it would of never happen.in addition you olny mentioned that plan but forgot to mention this plan which look like a fair division

Spoiler for Plan:

Either way, the arab would've never accepted this for a simple reason (as I mentioned many times "We don't just give our country, even if it's the smallest peice of it")
Then you claimed that the arabs attacked! of cource they did, because and as I said many times "palastine won't be just given to you on a plate of silver" and you didn't Miracly won this war.You won because of the simple fact that you were aided by the USA and other countries.

It seems you do not know our history so well. Don't worry I don't blame you of that. Then let me explain. You can not really compare the situations. First although france was not weak back then it was not a super power like the Roman empire. In addition one of the things which aided you to get Algeria was the media which didn't exist back then. You see when I don't think the people which lived in Rome really cared about the Jews here like some of the french. Now also you said we didn't try hard enough to get our land back right? The war for Algerian independence lasted 10 years , do you know how long lasted the rebellions of judea against the Romans? It started right after the Roman empire was conquered Israel and ended pretty much when the Arabs conquered Israel from the Byzantine . I will list some of them here " The Great Revolt" (66-73/4) ,"Kitos War" (115-117), "Bar Kokhba revolt" (132-136) , "The Jewish revolt against Gallus" (351–352), "The revolt against Heraclius" (613-617). Those are the more known revolt ,but there were actually also many small ones along the years and some of them were even outside of Judea's territory.

The plan you mentioned isn't fair as you think. If you know the geography of Israel you can see that most of the Jewish country is actually a desert. The whole southern part is a desert called "The Negev" and it is really hard to populate and as proof it is not very populated even today. What we are left are some very small (I would say between 20-30 kilometers across) which are not easy to defend. Also note that the south of the jewish country could be disconnected easily from the other parts. After all those we still accepted it

.

Now in response to "Israel won't be just given to you on a plate of silver" we already knew that... You see we did actually quite a lot to get it from every aspect. We built communities , villages , kibbutzim & cities on lands that were bought by the "Jewish National Fund" . We established an economic basis by creating farms, cowsheds , wineries , factories, workshops and all kinds of productive industries. We established education systems that were built according to "The Cultural Zionism" & "Religious Zionism" movements. We organized Jewish paramilitary organizations to protect the Jewish communities from the raiding arab gangs. We even formed political parties and movements that were represented different ideas among the Jewish communities and actually also around the world. Now while we were doing all of the things I mentioned above and some more what did the Arabs do? Nothing! So I think the Arabs were the ones who should have been told that "Israel will not be given to them on a plate of gold!" .

In addition we were aided by no one when the neighboring Arabs countries attacked us. The only country which sent us something was russia and those were vodka bottles (I am being serious here...) . Although you are actually right , it was not a miracle. We won thanks to our great tacticians, our great strategists and thanks to the bravery of our soldiers (which some of them joined directly when they got here after they had been through the holocaust). You see we have many brilliant minds here so we do not only fight with combats , we fight with our heads , with strategy and that is why we mostly win.

Now about your policy of never giving up even a tiny piece of land. If you can never give up you can also never negotiate. Therefore as long as you can not negotiate there will never be peace. How do you expect that we will achieve peace if you can't concessions . This is pretty much illogical & childish. I personally am willing to give up parts of my dear motherland for the sake of peace. Why can't you? Do you really want to have an ever lasting war with us? You see we will never kill you all since we see it as inhuman to do so. On the other hand Hamas and the Islamic Jihad declares publicly that they will destroy the state of Israel (along with the Hizbalah & Iran). Now I would like to quote one of the Israeli prime ministers , Golda Meir: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us" .

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

I have a very short, simple response for this.

So does this give you the right to discriminate, convict, rob, rape, kill, or murder anyone else?

No. The answer is no.

1. We do not rape Palestinians...

2. I can tell you personally that I do not hate Palestinians nor Arabs and I know many people who has at least one Palestinian or Arab friend (Frankly I don't have one yet).

3. We didn't rob anyone most of the lands we live on were bought by "The Jewish National Fund". In addition most of the Arabs ran away from their homes so we didn't just rob it from them. Furthermore , the Jewish people have a historical right over Israel which was already acknowledged by the world back in 1947 so I am able to say that this my home.

4. I do not need to convict Hamas and the Islamic Jihad of terrorism . They say it themselves.

Spoiler for Hamas intentions:

5. The terrorist organizations (Hamas & the Islamic Jihad) are terrorizing Israeli civilians from civil territory and therefore using the civilians a human shields.

Spoiler for One example of Human Sheilding:

To think that people can not be harmed that way you need be quite naive.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

You don't deserve to like FMA.

Omnis Dei you are being childish and racist.

**ThePreserver** · 11-23-2012 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Beefer

1. We do not rape Palestinians...

I guess it's OK that you only discriminate against, convict, rob, kill, and murder them.

**Beefer** · 11-23-2012 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

I guess it's OK that you only discriminate against, convict, rob, kill, and murder them.

I see I wasn't clear enough for you...

1 says that it is stupid to say that we rape palestinians

2 says that we do not discriminate them and says and I personally do not think that they are bad people , but people just like anywhere in the world

3 explains why it is illegitimate to say we robbed them

4 says that there is no need to convict the Hamas of terrorism since it says it's target to kill all the Israelis (The hamas says so , not the the Palestinians)

5 explains that Hamas is using the civilian in Gaza as human shields . This means the Hamas is the main cause for their death. That means that we do not murder Palestinians and those who die are poor people that the Hamas uses in order to shield itself from the Israelis attacks .

Is it clear now that I responded to everything you said?
Please do not just look at whatever you want ,but read it all and then get to conclusions.

**ThePreserver** · 11-24-2012 03:22 AM

2. If you do not personally discriminate against them, you still support a regime that discriminates against them (you cannot argue that the regime does not, and therefore supporting the existence of Israel is supporting the discrimination of people who lived there before the state existed.)

3. This "world" that acknowledged that Jews had a right to the land oddly enough did not include the people who LIVED THERE before the land was taken from them. I'm sure they would have had a different opinion on whose land it rightfully was. The land was taken, and is continually taken despite the residence of Palestinians. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that a home cannot be destroyed when people live in it without ownership of the land and ensurance that people do not live there (which they do, so they are violating what "the world" has agreed is universal.)

4. I said "kill" for this part. Obviously Hamas kills people, I'm not defending Hamas. I'm defending Palestinians who are brutally killed by Israel. That is wrong.

5. You say that it's Hamas' fault for the deaths of civilians, even though the weapons KILLING those civilians are ISRAELI weapons. Clearly, Israel is at fault, because since they know that Hamas is doing this, they still continue to kill innocent Palestinians.

I know I won't be able to change your mind, but since you find the need to defend yourself against truthful allegations, I will let you settle it with your own conscience.

**Emecom** · 11-25-2012 12:03 AM

ThePreserver; what do you propose happens then? Do you want to force all the Israelis out of Israel and make them integrate where? Also what do you propose Israel does about Hamas, either they try to get end the terrorism that both Palestinians and Israelis dislike but cause civilian casualties in the process or they ignore it and Hamas kills civilians. Either way innocent people are going to die.

**ThePreserver** · 11-25-2012 05:56 AM

I don't believe Israelis should be forced out. I do believe, however, if they forced Palestinians off of that land, they should allow the Palestinians who previously lived there to return and co-habitate, if possible. Now that probably won't work well, but at the very least they need to stop restricting the movement of the Palestinians in the land that was previously theirs.

**Beefer** · 11-25-2012 08:00 PM

2. According to the Israeli declaration of independence (which is usually treated as the constitution since we don't have one) "it [The state of Israel] will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex;" . Also you should know that most of the parties in the Israeli government support the solution of "Two countries for two peoples" (As it is said in hebrew). You are claiming that our government discriminates the palestinian based on the pro-palestinian propaganda you get to see through the media. On the other hand you don't get to see any of these:

Spoiler for Israeli officials on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

Those were the current prime minister (a conservative) & the president (a liberal) of Israel.

3. The people who lived in Israel at the time were both Arabs & Jews. Now I will repeat it once more: The Arabs ran away from their homes before the war . Now you would probably say that it doesn't make sense that someone will just leave his home ,because it usually doesn't. So let me tell you why the did. The Arabs here and actually in general had a saying : "We will throw the Jews to the sea!" . Now what does that mean? If you look at Israel's map (even today) you would be able to see that it is surrounded by Arab countries. Theoretically if the Jews were attacked from all sides by all the Arab countries (What eventually happened) they would have no where to run to ,but the sea. Since we can't live under water that would mean certain death.
What the Arabs in Israel (The future Palestinians) thought was that we would just die and they will be able to go back to their homes . Frankly we didn't die ^^ (and that is why I am here today). Therefore Israel didn't steal any lands , the Arabs just ran away.
Also Israel does not destroy homes without a privilege. Israel destroys houses where terrorist hide and many times even if Israel does know that terrorist are in a house along with civilians , it would not attack. That is also the reason the Hamas & The Islamic Jihad are hiding between civilians.

4. I know you said "kill" ,but i referred to your "convict".I included "kill" & "murder" in the same category since they both refer to death and also because I am try to tell you that we do not intend to kill Palestinian Civilians. Because we do not intend to kill civilians , it is vague to say that we brutally kill civilians. You see we don't want people to die ,but on the other hand we can't let half of the country be under terror. As every country we have the right to defend ourselves. Since the terrorist organizations in Gaza terrorize our civilians we have no choice ,but to attack those terrorist organizations. As I already said we try to not harm civilians ,but it is hard because Gaza is the most populated area in the world (Compared to it's size) and in addition to that terrorists are hiding between the civilians. How do you expect people to not be killed?! Although it is true that our weapons are the one to kill them , we do not aim weapons at civilians . The civilians are used as human shield in order to shield the terrorists from our weapons.

You should also know that I don't support my country because it is my country. I support my country because I know the facts & I know the conflict well enough & because I believe it is right. If I would believe so I wouldn't tell you so. If you would be able to convince me it isn't right I would accept it!

You seem to me like sympathetic person and I believe that you believe what you believe because you actually care for others. Even though you don't live here; you don't know the facts well; you get to see only one side; you see things in a really simple way. Reality is not simple , it is complicated and full of details that you don't have access to. I believe you don't think Israel is acting bad because you don't see thing as they are , you don't know everything about the conflict. I know both sides. That is why I think we need to live in peace and free Gaza from the terrorist which holds it.

Furthermore I don't really understand why don't you support Israel! We are a real liberal country in the middle of dictatorships (Egypt and tunisia are still not completely democracies). We are a real democracy , the only democracy in the area. You are American right? We represent your ideals here! We believe in human rights. We educate our children on phrases like "Treat others as you would like to be treated!" , "Respect the different" , "Don't do to other what was done to you!" . Those and many more like those are the values that lead us. I am not saying that we always keep all of them we are human beings! just like you.

**sarimdesert** · 11-25-2012 08:36 PM

@Beefer (sorry couldn't reply with quote, networks suck here) you cannot actually believe that Israel is such a great and holy nation even though you do live in it, and it is good that you are patriotic but really all people must accept the fact that all nations can make bad moves, people do wrong, what we learn in our textbooks are just glimpses of what happens. Their are always casualties in war and even textbooks only highlight the hero's which helped your nation win that war but do not look at the other side.Great men are lost on all sides of a war.

But I do agree with you on some facts, I although will not go ahead and call Hamas and the Islamic Jihad terrorists but I will say that they are a potential threat to the Israelis, Because he would have well known that the bombardment is being aimed at him, if he had any care for the loss of the lives of the Palestineans he would have surrendered but it can also be said that the palestineans themselves need him to protect them and even if he would surrender.The Israelis might not agree not to take over Gaza (in search of further such "terrorist groups").

In Islam we are taught that all Muslims are brothers to one and other and we aren't allowed to harm anyone unless it is for Islam i.e. Jihad although i do not think what Hamas or the other groups in Gaza are doing should be categorized as "Jihad" . I think a Islamic Council should be set up for all the Muslims of the world, to avoid such further conflicts and help the people in need all over the world.

**Beefer** · 11-25-2012 10:58 PM

I do not think Israel is perfect. I am aware of many bad things in the Israeli public (I am not going to list them now). As I said reality is complex. Although I think that compared to other countries in the middle east Israel is quite a liberal country which honors lives and human rights more than people think. Also I think that Israel is many times viewed in a very negative light for no proper justification. You see when people just write things like "Fuck Israel" or "Israel go home, you are drunk" it is just not right because they do not know how lives are here.

Yes I know that policy already. I stated beforehand why Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are terrorist so I am not going to repeat it or either try to convince you otherwise since you acknowledge the fact that life here are not easy.

I do not agree that the Palestinians need Hamas. If they need protection the Fatah (the organization which is dominant in Judea & Samaria) can fill the role of Hamas in the same manner. Actually I don't really see who they need to protect themselves from. As I mentioned we do not harm people for no reason. We usually attack in order to defend ourselves.

Also about the idea of an Islamic council. If it is one that desires peace and coexistence then go for it. I think it might be a little tough to create one since there are a lot of power strangles in the middle east between countries & factions of the Islam (Shia & Sunni are the main examples here) . I am also sure that an organization like that might help to solve this particular conflict in peaceful ways. One way might be to establish an efficient education system that will educate children towards non-violent Jihad , peaceful values and human rights. Such a thing could promote a future Palestinian state that would be able to live besides Israel in peace

Oh and by the way guys just for you to know Israel and Terrorist organizations in Gaza called a cease fire mediated by Egypt. So for the mean time it is quiet here.

**Original Poster** · 11-26-2012 04:03 AM

Yeah dude, this looks a lot like you're just defending yourselves -_-

The fact is you're treating Palestine just like the Europeans treated Native Americans. And you're using the same bullshit propaganda to justify it that they used back then. Genocide is Genocide.

**saltyseedog** · 11-26-2012 04:19 AM

onward christian soldiers,
onward buddhist priests.
onward, fruits of islam,
fight till youre deceased.
fight your little battles,
join in thickest fray;
for the greater glory, of dis-cord-i-a.
yah, yah, yah,
yah, yah, yah, yah,
blffffffft.

**Original Poster** · 11-26-2012 06:48 AM

Here's another picture to compare the Palestinian Holocaust to the Native American Holocaust

I can also draw a deeper comparison. You claim Palestine does not need Hamas. Europeans claims natives that refused to live in their reservation were renegades. The buzz word changed to terrorists but the perception is the same. Palestinians that refuse to be forced into smaller and smaller spaces become labeled terrorists.

You also claimed Israel was actually more liberal than the countries it surrounded. This is a matter of perspective in the same way that Europeans were more "civilized" than the Natives, and they even considered it their job to help civilize the savages through violence and imposition just like how Israel and the US appear to think it's their job to liberate and oppressed people through violence and imposition.

And this attitude seems to echo with everything else you said. If only those damned savages could just learn to behave and be satisfied with their reservations.

**Beefer** · 11-27-2012 12:04 AM

The maps you are showing are twisting history very drastically...

The First map is actually the map of the Jewish villages and towns. The wrong thing about it is the interpretation. The green part is not an Arab territory. Those are actually just all the other parts of Israel that were under the British mandate. It is extremely wrong to claim that the Green area is an Arabic area.

In addition do you expect such a drastic growth between 1946 to 1947(first map & second)? That is not possible! Here is a map that presents the Jewish & the Arab cities and towns in Israel along with the partition plan of the UN.

green dot is for Jewish town/city - ישוב יהודי

red dot is for Arabic town/city - ישוב ערבי

black dots are for mixed cities - עיר מעורבת

(sorry ,but I had it only in hebrew so please bear with me)
Attachment 3807
The green area and the yellow one represent the area of the future countries ,but since you already can see these above they don't really matter here.

The third one represents the area of the state of Israel ,but the Palestinian one is a little bit odd. You see there was no Palestinian movement back in 1949 . The green areas were under the control of Egypt & Jordan which entered them in Israel's war of independence. So it is not true to say that those were Palestinian lands. You see the Palestinians started to think of themselves as "Palestinians" only in 1964 when PLO was established after the Arab states pressured the local Arabs to create it. So basically the Arabs in Judea & Samaria and in Gaza were not oppressed by Israel. Actually those Arabs were even encouraged by the Arab states around us to terrorize the new born country.

Now the fourth one represents the areas that are under the management of the Palestinian Authority. Those lands are the cities , towns and villages they live in along with some additional territories. Those territories are called A & B . The other territories in Judea and Samaria are called C territory and the are managed by the state of Israel in the meantime. I am saying in the meantime because they will be given to the Palestinians when peace will be achieved. Right now Israeli officials fear that individual terrorists in Judea and Samaria will find their way to Israel. As an example of an event we would want to prevent take the bus that exploded in Tel-Aviv less than a weak ago after the cease fire with Hamas was signed.

There is no so called "buzz word" here since Hamas is attacking Israeli Civilians and using Palestinians civilians as human shields . If you don't call that terrorism then please define terrorism to me.

Also Israel is more Liberal by fact. You see you can't really say that countries where a hand of a thief is being sliced as a punishment is more Liberal than Israel. As someone which considers himself liberal you can't say by any means that there is a more Liberal state than Israel in the area. Even in egypt where a democratic revolt took place the new leader decided to give himself more power than he should have (That is why the Egyptians are also protesting against him).

Did I say I am more civilized than a Palestinian in Ramallah? I didn't! I just think the terror reign of Hamas is a crime against humanity. Standing from the side and watching while our people are living under terror is unacceptable. No country in the world would tolerate that. I have tried to be very objective about the facts ,but it seems you read what ever you are expecting to read. In addition I already stated that I can't stand the way people like you convict Israel for crimes with no proper justification. I thought I read you once say that you believe in convicting only when the proof is absolute.

All I want is to live in peace here besides the Palestinians. You don't care about that. You care about convicting Israel , No , The US and it's supporters for a motive which is unknown to me. Why haven't I seen you once saying something like "I believe the conflict must be solved" , "I think peace should be achieved" shouldn't a liberal person as you seek peace in the middle east!?

Instead of doing that you clearly use Palestinian Propaganda (Which is all over the web by the way) , one sided arguments , sensitive term & abusive language. That is no way to speak to anyone.

**Beefer** · 11-27-2012 12:09 AM

For some reason the map was shown as a link and was also pretty small. Here is a link to the full sized map (I can't edit my post for some reason).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...onPlan1947.PNG

**Sensei** · 11-27-2012 12:28 AM

Beefer, I did not know you were a Jew. FMA and a Jew.

Awesome.

People have been hating Jews since Abraham. Nothing will stop it. Every bad thing gets put on them. Look at the book of Ezra. Look at Hitler. Doesn't matter what they do, they will always be blamed. :/

Anyways. Arguing on the internet is useless, no one changes their minds.

Quote: Jerusalem hasn't been the home of the Jews since the middle ages. Unless you want to include that time when the allied powers forcefully annexed it in the aftermath of WW2? ::end Quote (stupid thing is messing up)

Middle ages started in 5th century. Jews stopped being in Jerusalem in the first century I believe. Before then it was under Roman rule. So you could say that it hasn't been the home since before the middle ages. Unless you believe that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob promised them that. Then it has always been theirs.

P.S. I am a christian.

You can hate on me if yall want. You shouldn't be hating on God's chosen people.

**Original Poster** · 11-27-2012 07:09 AM

I am not convicting the Israeli people of anything more than being victims of ignorance and deranged group-think, just like every one else. I am abhorred by my own government for giving Israel technology which has been used to push the western agenda into the middle east where it does not belong. You can claim that your state is more liberal because it's not cutting people's hands off but my claim is that you can impose your way of thinking on other people and expect the common people to rejoice in the liberty you give them. They will always fight back. Israel's presence in the middle east was obviously part of a larger agenda than giving the jews a country of their own, because it makes no sense to import them into a region so full of bigotry against them and supply them with the military strength to stay there. Your state is practically nothing more than a launching pad for the western agenda in the region.

As far as you claiming that Hamas tactics are obvious terrorism, terrorism is becoming an irrelevant word. Blowing up buildings with predator drones is just as violent as suicide bombers, moreso because the loss of life is greater. Terrorism is becoming a word used only to justify more terrorism. You want to bring peace is the middle east, well live-tweeting an assault on Gaza will not cut it.

**Original Poster** · 11-27-2012 07:11 AM

*You can claim that your state is more liberal because it's not cutting people's hands off but my claim is that you can't impose your way of thinking on other people and expect the common people to rejoice in the liberty you give them.

**sarimdesert** · 11-27-2012 07:20 AM

@BrandonBoss I am a Muslim and i feel the same way. Its a really hard time for us, with every other person assuming you're a maniac who's gonna blow himself up with a bomb strapped to his chest. I live in Pakistan and seriously its Savage Murder here every other day. Most people just wanna leave this place, haha, sadly only a few are able to do that, and those are some extraordinary people, this nation has unbelievable amount of raw talent, really.

The amount of suffering Muslims are going through is truly phenomenal, But this only happened because of illiteracy and the fact that we strayed from our Religion.But this thread holds a different topic and i am straying from it, so that is a topic for another time.I also agree with Beefer the world is full of people who only judge you by your race,religion,first sight etc. These shallow people always jump to conclusions without knowing what they are judging.

May God ease the suffering of this world.

**Beefer** · 11-27-2012 03:00 PM

Original Poster , Israel does not tend to force any agendas upon those who do not want them. We have been given a country since we were persecuted due to discrimination through the ages. The establishment of Israel was in order to solve that one problem. Not more than that. I think the world acknowledged our lasting troubles back in 1947 after they have seen the holocaust and understood that the only real solution would be to give us a state. I don't whether they had motives or not. We can argue about that and you might even prove you are right ,but I can say that the reason we came here ( notice that I say that we decided to come here and that the world didn't annexed us here as you made it seem) was because we needed a country. Also just for you to know the Arabs here had nothing particular against the Jews and those days (not just in Israel all around the middle east). That is why no one ever thought there would ever be a conflict with them. You see many of the most respected jewish scholars like Maimonides , The Ramban and others lived besides Arabs in Egypt , Yemen and actually all around the middle east (Even in Iran).

Terror is always relevant. When armed combatants attack civil populations that is called terrorism. Israel doesn't fight the Palestinians. Israel fights the Hamas and terrorist organizations that threatens our women, men & children. Now as I already stated the terrorists hide in areas where Palestinian civilians live. That is why the IDF invests a lot in planning the attacks beforehand. My physics Dr. (which has some friends in the army) showed us how they can hit an armory of Hamas which is placed besides a mosque without harming the sacred place at all! They calculate the even single parameter and the exact precision it needs to have in order to harm only the terrorists. They even calculate the mass of the bomb they need to use in order not to have a too big explosion.

I do not think that tweeting of whatever happens in Gaza will bring peace. Usually I don't even get into these kind of arguments about politics, but when i see so much unjustified hatred , and it doesn't matter who it is or whether he is Jewish , Buddhist , Mormon ,Muslim ,Atheist ,Catholic, short, Black, Purple or with 6 fingers I wouldn't be able to stand on the side and watch.

BrandonBoss & Sarimdesert I thank you for your understanding.

**Original Poster** · 12-05-2012 01:45 AM

If Israel is not a terrorist state and actually supports peaceful resolution, then explain the Gaza flotilla raid.

**Wayfaerer** · 12-05-2012 07:34 PM

The Jewish religion is a religion NOT a heritage. I doubt very many Jewish people who suffered through the holocaust were middle-eastern in the least. How is barging into an existing nation's country and saying "this is mine now" a solution to that very same injustice toward your religion? Please tell me you're kidding me. Does this mean that I can covert to a Cherokee religion, take over Georgia, and wonder why I get attacked while taking over other people's homes because the people of my religion have a right to that land due to all the suffering we went through? This is amazingly stupid. Israel should have never been created, people who adhered to the Jewish religion after WWII would have done just fine without it.

**Sensei** · 12-05-2012 08:07 PM

You guys are comparing them to Native Americans, which I find odd. Yes, my country made some mistakes with them (lots and lots) but they were a race of people that sacrificed someone (A HUMAN) every morning and every night to make the sun rise and set. We took over their land and now they are given scholarships, land, and a few rights that normal US citizens don't have. Until the Jews got back into Israel they were just lost people that anyone could try and kill and plenty did. Jews were dispersed 2000 years ago and even when they didn't have a home they were being killed left and right for a 2000 year heritage. I see no similarities between them.

**Photolysis** · 12-05-2012 08:14 PM

Judaism pisses me off because it tries to have its cake and eat it... and it does. When it wants to be, it's a religion. When it's convenient, it's an ethnic group. It even gets its own special word; you're not racist, you're an antisemitist. It gets to play multiple cards in a hand until it gets the winning one.

The creation of Israel was a huge mistake, done on utterly bizarre grounds. Wayfaerer is correct, if a group is persecuted. you try and right those wrongs as best you can, not by telling people who were previously regular citizens of many varying states, whose only connection is a shared religion "hey this is your land now". The USA didn't create a brand new state for the persecution of Japanese-Americans, they instead (eventually) compensated those affected, and took steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. Now you can argue about the flaws in how they went about this and how long it took, but the fact remains that creating a new state, especially in such a contested area is not the solution.

**Wayfaerer** · 12-05-2012 08:54 PM

The fact is that the concept of being "ethnoreligious" is absolutely illogical. Jewish (religion) Europeans have no rightful business in the middle-east unless it's establishing a productive presence helping the actual native people modernize.

**Emecom** · 12-05-2012 09:25 PM

You guys are arguing that Israel shouldn't have been created but that is besides the point now, it is a country and it has been for over half a century.

"Judaism pisses me off because it tries to have its cake and eat it... and it does. When it wants to be, it's a religion. When it's convenient, it's an ethnic group. It even gets its own special word; you're not racist, you're an antisemitist. It gets to play multiple cards in a hand until it gets the winning one."

Judaism is a religion and its an ethnic group. Jewish people rarely marry non Jewish people, and people don't generally convert from other religions to Judaism. When Nazi Germany was sending Jews to concentration camps they didn't look at where they worshiped, they looked at their family line.

So yes Jews play the religion and race card, but so did Hitler when he was killing them.

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