Thread: Israel-Gaza Crisis

Lol I thought we already ended that discussion ,but as you please ^^ .

To Original Poster, this is actually very easy to explain. First, the people on the Marmara had not peaceful at all... If those people on the flotilla were offered by Israel to pass the supplies to Gaza through Israeli territory. The people on the flotilla declined rudely while shouting "Go back to Auschwitz" . Now as you might already know since Hamas took over the Gaza strip Israel is applying a naval blockade in order to prevent Hamas of arming itself with weapons ,missiles and all kinds of combat supplies. Therefore it is logical that Israel will check ships that are sailing straight to Gaza.
Also since you claim the flotilla was a peaceful flotilla you might not know that the people on board carried cold weapons:

Spoiler for Weapons on Board of the flotilla:

Peaceful flotillas don't carry such big knives.
That raises the question "but the IDF was armed as well wasn't it?" . Sure it was ,but do you know with what? Have you ever played paint ball? I did , and I can tell you it is a lot of fun . The soldiers on this case were armed with paintball guns (as funny as it sounds , it is true) . Now that is my own interpretation ,but I think that since Israel thought it might be really a peaceful flotilla so it didn't think soldiers need to be sent with 'big guns' .
Although to their surprise the people on the flotilla were quite violent...

Spoiler for Violence:

Throwing people off board and hitting them is quite violent (and that is even before the soldiers done anything).
Furthermore , the organizers of the flotilla are the IHH. This organization is an organization which aided other organizations as al-Qaeda and took part in planning all kinds of terror attacks. It can be clearly said that this is not an innocent organization.

Now to wayfaerer . Your first assumption is very incorrect. The jewish people are indeed an ethnic group which has more than a thousand year of heritage. You see I can still read archeological writing that were found in Israel after a more than two thousand years. There were Jewish Philosophers and Jewish Poetries along the ages. Here is one poet written by Yehuda Halevi:
My heart is in the East, and I am at the ends of the West;

"How can I taste what I eat and how could it be pleasing to me?

How shall I render my vows and my bonds, while yet

Zion lies beneath the fetter of Edom, and I am in the chains of Arabia?

It would be easy for me to leave all the bounty of Spain --

As it is precious for me to behold the dust of the desolate sanctuary."

The claim that Jews are actually europeans is absurd since there were jewish communities in Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Morocco and there was even a community in Israel. Most of my friends today have Yemeni and Iraqi origins so it is also a little bit shallow to say that only jewish people which lived in europe came here.

Now in response to Photolysis. I think that in the first place the jewish people are ethnic group. Back in the days of the bible religion and relation to an ethnic group went quite along. The Egyptians believed in Osiris,Ra & Anubis , The Babylonians believed in Marduk & Tiamat and we the Jews believed in our one and only invisible god. I actually understand why you find this irritating since this perception does not fit with the perception of the modern world where religion and nationality are two separate things.
In addition the solution of a establishing a jewish country was the only solution. We didn't just tell each other "hey that was our land..." . At start zionist movements were established spontaneously by dreamers all over eastern europe. Then came Hertzel from western europe and established an organized zionist movement. It is true that some of the Jews did not support the zionist movement at first. The jews in germany for example pressured the authorities not to let the first Zionist congress take place in Germany, those jews wanted to try and blend in the german society. Although after the holucaust those people realized that their only choice was actually to come here, to their motherland, Israel. There are too many evidences that the jews were here and lived here for more than a short period. How can one ignore that? How can one be blind to the facts?

The answer is quite simple and short. People tend to have a short-term vision. That is why I believe that learning history is important.

I am not saying that the Indians have it better then the Jews. I am saying that your comparison of native americans and Jews is weak. It is nothing like that. I did not state any opinion other than that. I don't care about what you say about Europeans being as bad as native Americans. That was not really my point. You all were saying how the Jews being back in israel is like native american.... I am just saying that they are completely different. I am leaving this part of the forum now. I was planning on not commenting here, but then I did. Twas a bad for idea. :/ see ya. Good luck with your argument.

By the way I don't practice jiujitsu. Throwing statements into the air without a based and detailed explanation is your greatness not mine.

Not to mention your lack of sympathy and rudeness toward other*

OMG no way knives! WTF?! Why on earth would people trying to operate a boat possibly need knives?

Now that you've had your turn trying to twist the IDF into the good guys let's look at the fact.

Yes, the IHH refused to dock and face inspection. This I understand, who knows if that aid would stand a chance at making it to Gaza if they followed Israel's parameters.

But let's look at the resulting conflict. While one commando was seriously injured, nine activists were killed. Tell me again how you kill people with paintball guns?

Original Poster, I do agree that the U.S. should not be funding or giving a lot of support to Israel, but that is because I think the U.S. should be out of most foreign conflicts and we should tend our own garden so to speak.

But I think it is ignorant to call Israel a terrorist state, every major country on Earth had to become a country somehow and has to fight to maintain that. Israel especially since they are surrounded by countries that hate them.

At least the two sides agreed to a ceasefire of sorts last week. As I expected, the talking began before the killing stopped. Since Hamas took over internal control of the Gaza Strip from their Palestinian rivals Fatah in 2007, there have been many instances of cross-border violence. All have been followed by ceasefires, and all have fallen apart which led to even more aggression. These ceasefires cover up the fundamental problem which is that Hamas and Israel are in what amounts to a constant state of war. For months on end it can be a cold war, until it runs hot - and eventually deadly - again...

From previous trends there is a strong chance that a new ceasefire will eventually fall apart too, unless it brings with it a major change in the political equation between Israel and the Palestinians, especially those in Gaza. This time round, both sides have been trying to attach conditions to the ceasefire Israel wanted Hamas not to rearm, and to stop firing rockets across the borders and Hamas wants Israel to stop these assassination attempts on their officials and to stop their blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Yes there is no good reason for people who operate a boat to have so much big knives not to mention axes, although you said it cynically there is actually no need for that. It is makes no sense to have such weaponry on board, unless you want to cut an extraordinary salad.

Now you asked how come nine of the protestors were killed , which is even easier to explain. Imagine someone trying to kill your father , your brother or a good friend. Will you wait and watch them dying? Hack no. Every sane person which loves his family & friends would do anything to save them. That is why 40 minutes after the pictures you seen were taken, the soldiers got permission to shoot at the 'demonstrators' .

By the way I am sorry for forgetting to mention some stuff earlier ,but I was quite in a hurry when I wrote the last posts. So there are a few things that needs to be added:
1. The IDF soldiers carried also a few pistol and mini uzis (Which caused the deaths).
2. It seems that the people on the flotilla also carried hot weaponry (guns)
3. as you said 9 demonstrators died , but also 10 soldiers were injured (Some of them were even injured quite badly)
4. Ironically some of those who died on the flotilla expressed a desire to die as 'Shahid's (The connotation is quite clear)
5. Israel actually tried to pass the luggage of the ships into Gaza ,but the Hamas refused to accept it until all of the people from the flotilla will be released and tended the approval of the luggage by getting all of the luggage (Even after their release the Hamas continued refusing the luggage).

And actually I know it could have reached Gaza since Israel delivers trucks of aid into the Gaza strip daily...

Don't you see the cognitive dissonance here? They carried fucking knives, the IDF had uzis, but apparently you see the activists as the threat and not the soldiers. You are making absolutely no sense. The activists were unarmed, no guns were found, and you claiming that had guns is a lie. Furthermore, only one IDF soldier was seriously injured, the other 9 injuries were relatively minor. This was obviously not an act of violence, and carrying knives hardly proves otherwise. Sure, they were purposely trying to provoke the IDF. That's pretty obvious, but only one of the flotillas actually responded with violence when the raid occurred, the other 5 practiced peaceful resistance. It was a protest against the Israel blockade. Israel essentially fell into a PR trap by being provoked and murdering activists, just like they were predicted to do because frankly Israel isn't concerned with peace unless that peace includes the removal of Palestine.

Originally Posted by Beefer

Now to wayfaerer. Your first assumption is very incorrect. The jewish people are indeed an ethnic group which has more than a thousand year of heritage. You see I can still read archeological writing that were found in Israel after a more than two thousand years.

Are you sure it's really "Jewish" and not Israeli? I bet someone with actual Israeli genetic heritage who is atheist is doing this right now

Wayfarer, yes I am pretty sure. It was Jewish and not israeli for the last 2 decades. Actually I have a family tree which records those Jewish roots until 11th century. On the other side of the family my grandparents hold a record of ten generations of jews who lived in Israel (Which is quite rare). Also note that there is a difference between the tribes of Israel and judea . In 928 BC the united Israeli kingdom that was ruled by king Solomon was divided into two kingdoms: Judea (Which ruled the southern part and included the Judea tribe along with parts of the Shimon and Benjamin tribes) and the kingdom of Israel which is also know as Samaria (which ruled the northern part of Israel and included the other 10 tribes). That is why we refer to ourselves as jews and not as Israelis , the name Israel was given to the country after the name of the land. Now it seems that you concluded I am religious for some reason O.o . So let me disappoint you, I am a secular jew although I tend to consider myself agnostic. Also note that whenever you doubt the origins of one you should be extra careful not to offend anyone. You are tried to be funny ,but with so little words you showed a huge lack of empathy , criticism and bad manners. I am telling it to you so you would be aware of that ,not in order to insult.

Original Poster, let me correct you. No guns were presented ,but apparently the soldiers were shot. How do you explain that? I can explain it in two ways. The first is that they had guns in the first place. The second is that when they beat up the sodiers they stole their guns and shot the soldiers. In both cases we have a scene of violence where so called 'peace activists' are using aggression against people that have yet to do anything to them.
This indicator of aggression that stands in contradiction to peaceful acts leads one to infer that the motives for the aggression couldn't have been peaceful at the first place. Therefore the demonstrators didn't came for peaceful purposes. So what were their motives? If we look at the big picture we can see that the flotilla had relations with terrorist organizations (Which encourage aggression and war) and held cold weaponry beforehand. Those two facts strengthen the contradiction between the declared motives of peaceful activity and the facts that points out on aggression. From that we can conclude that the motives for the flotilla were aggression , the support of terrorism, delegitimization of Israel and maybe even pure hatred (I wouldn't like to believe the last one).

Now lets us also examine the Israeli soldiers. First lets try to define who is the Israeli soldier. First,here people recruit to the army at the of 18. So first the Israeli soldier is on the verge of being a teenager, a young adult. Now in addition to that it is important to say that here also everyone are recruiting to the army. So we can say that people who serve in the army are not all aggressive muscular as you might have thought ,but normal citizens , they are normal people like me ,you and every other human being. Now it is true that they carry weapons ,but you see every country in the world including Argentina has an army so it will be able to protect itself. First I wanted to show you that the soldiers are people and not killing machines who oppress and kill people for fun.
After making that clear I would like to speak of that certain case of the Marmara. You said that the soldiers boarded the ship with mini uzis (not uzis! , there is a big difference) . Once again remember that the number of uzis and the pistols was quite low and primary weapon that was used by the IDF was paint ball guns. It is very important to take this into account. Why is it important? Because it shows the motives for the raid. Usually soldiers are going around with M4 , CAR15 ,Tavor, Negev, M2-Brauning. Those are normal and big guns. On our case the firearms that were used are completely a joke! Paint ball guns are almost harmless and can only injure, mini uzis are very inaccurate and old weapons & pistols are very uncomfortable to shoot or to aim with. So why would the Israeli army (The IDF) send soldiers with such pathetic weaponry when it has so many advanced and useful guns. That is because they do not intend to kill anyone. We have a contradiction here. Soldiers who are able to oil carry weapons that are really bad for even harming someone. According to those facts the answer is that the soldiers carry pathetic weapons that can barely harm ,because they do not want to kill and do not intend to harm.

What matters is not what did each of the sides had or done ,what matters is what is the reason they had done it for? why have they acted the way they did? What were their motives? . Those are the major questions here. It is true that the fact are important. I know it quite well. But we need to use the facts in order to understand reality , do not look at things the way they are. This might be an illusion. Interpret ,infer, research , collect knowledge! only then you will be able to reach a fine conclusion. Just looking at an unsolved puzzle will not give you anything ,but a blur picture. Solve the puzzle! Connect the pieces! Only then the picture will reveal itself. It seems to me that most people do not tend to think of things deeply enough. They look up to the stars and do not wonder what kind of world wait out there. They go to sleep and do not even think about the dreams they have dreamt last night. They look at things in a very simple way , without inferring or interpreting. They just do not think.

Another thing which bugs me is that people also tend to get stuck in the past. You see the past is important ,but it has already passed. They think only of what has happened and not of what they can do in the future. You see , instead of investing time in finding creative ways to end the conflict you were looking for ways to bash Israel and the Jews.

And what bugs me even more is the other extreme, the people which don't give a shit about the past. They don't give a single damn about what happened. They deny it , condemn it , they don't understand all the things that they can learn from it. You can't just deny thousands of years into the past you can't just turn your head and not even look what happened 10 ,100 ,1000 or even 10000 years ago. You would miss so much great knowledge you could have gained.

That is why I think that one cannot deny the past and must respect it ,but on the other hand one must not live in the past , one must learn from the past so he will be able to shape the future.

What I am saying here is that you need to take here many things into account when trying to understand what happened ,and that this shouldn't be your main concern. The main thing you need to focus is the how to make a better future. I can tell you clearly that the only way to establish a good future for both people here is the solution of the two states : A Jewish state and A Palestinian state . The Palestinian state should be established after a dialogue , after negotiation that will insure a long lasting peace. The grounds for such peace must be prepared by good education. That is why I also believe Israel should invest more money in education and less money in national security. I think that the arab states as well as other countries in the world can donate to the Palestinian National Authority so it would be able to establish a proper education system in the west bank and in the Gaza strip. Both education systems will educate the children towards peaceful thinking and empathy between human beings (of course that each education system will also match itself to the culture and religion each of the peoples hold). That way I believe that in the future both peoples will be able to achieve a long lasting peace. Now what I want to know is how do you think that we can end the conflict.

Look you can't exactly murder someone and then claim your persecutors are stuck in the past. I'm sure you're not some sort of hardcore Israeli nationalist that thinks Palestine should be wiped off the map, and your defensiveness is partially my fault for attacking Israel's actions so aggressively. But you're ignoring basic facts here, and bending the truth to make it appear as though Israel is the victim of aggression here. Israeli soldiers brought guns onto the flotilla, activists were killed. Don't try and wash that over by saying "yeah but the soldiers were injured." More activists were murdered and soldiers were injured, here. I know the situation is complicated but please stop trying to make Israelis out to be the victims. You seem to be just repeating whatever Israeli news broadcasts and accusing anyone who disagrees with you is falling for Palestinian propaganda.

I also understand my stance on Israel would seem hypocritical considering I'm a US citizen, and so I should at least mention that I do believe the US is the worst terrorist state in the globe at this time. But I'm not condoning the actions of my nation or acting like Iraq and Afghanistan had it coming. I believe the people that run my country are fucking war criminals. I don't see why it's so hard for you to admit the same thing about Israel. Instead you try and change the facts and argue that Israel's military is trying to be all tactical and only strike at enemy combatants. The facts continue to contradict this claim. And until the Israeli people hold their government accountable for the atrocities it has committed, we cannot move forward, we will continue to be stuck in the past.

While my opinion here has already been reflected by a number of people I just decided to share a few fun facts to avoid redundancy:

-Albert Einstein was offered presidency of Israel, he rejected it. He also opposed the establishment of a Jewish state with borders and an army, and he never wavered from arguing forcefully for equal rights and equal power for the Arabs whom he called “kinfolk” of the Jews. While the Zionists will have you believe that Einstein was a champion of Israel this was far from the truth.

-My entire family is from Palestine, we still have documented proof that shows we own a land and home there. After my great grandparents were forced out of there homes to flee to Syria, the Zionists took over there home and converted it to a museum of Jewish history.

-Falafel and Hummus are considered to be national dishes of Israel and Jewish food even though its pretty much common fact this was borrowed from Arabic culture. It just shows what a weak culture the Zionists have.

-Palestine was originally under British mandate before giving the land to the Zionist movement. When realizing what they had done the British ordered the immigrant ships to turn back, when they refused the British shot down Jewish immigrant ships on there way to Palestine.

-It is a widely accepted belief that is substantiated by a great amount of evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons. Despite this evidence being brought up countless times to the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Association) for investigation it is shot down and ignored. Meanwhile, Israel criticizes Iran for developing nuclear weapons.

-Marlon Brando admitted once on public television that Hollywood was basically run by Jews and showed open support for Israel as a result. As soon as his career started to end he did a total and sudden switch and dropped all support for Zionists and became in full support of Palestine.

-Famous political and linguist genius and MIT professor Noam Chomsky is known for his criticism of Israel and Zionism in general. Noam Chomsky also advised Norman Finkelstein (who also opposes Zionism) on his thesis, who went on to become another great political mind. He is also a known Jew.

Long story short Israel is an illegally obtained country by international law that has a weak culture and generally speaking lacks tact in international affairs. The only reason Israel even succeed as a nation was not because of the will of the people but rather the support of the West, namely America, to ensure its influence on the Middle East.

Mark my words, Israel's time is numbered and will likely be the powder keg for the next major world war which will be bloodier than WW1 & WW2 combined. If that war ever does happen, expect HUGE conservative reforms.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

Look you can't exactly murder someone and then claim your persecutors are stuck in the past. I'm sure you're not some sort of hardcore Israeli nationalist that thinks Palestine should be wiped off the map, and your defensiveness is partially my fault for attacking Israel's actions so aggressively. But you're ignoring basic facts here, and bending the truth to make it appear as though Israel is the victim of aggression here. Israeli soldiers brought guns onto the flotilla, activists were killed. Don't try and wash that over by saying "yeah but the soldiers were injured." More activists were murdered and soldiers were injured, here. I know the situation is complicated but please stop trying to make Israelis out to be the victims. You seem to be just repeating whatever Israeli news broadcasts and accusing anyone who disagrees with you is falling for Palestinian propaganda.

I also understand my stance on Israel would seem hypocritical considering I'm a US citizen, and so I should at least mention that I do believe the US is the worst terrorist state in the globe at this time. But I'm not condoning the actions of my nation or acting like Iraq and Afghanistan had it coming. I believe the people that run my country are fucking war criminals. I don't see why it's so hard for you to admit the same thing about Israel. Instead you try and change the facts and argue that Israel's military is trying to be all tactical and only strike at enemy combatants. The facts continue to contradict this claim. And until the Israeli people hold their government accountable for the atrocities it has committed, we cannot move forward, we will continue to be stuck in the past.

Both sides suffer. The Palestinians suffer from living under terrorist organizations, discrimination from both Jews and Arabs, lots of casualties , a bad economic state (I am comparing this to the western world of course) and all kind of restrictions. I am not saying that Israel is the victim . It is one of the victims. Both Israel and the Palestinians are victims of war, discrimination and hatred. That is why we must reach a real peace treaty between people. Not only a paper that will force peace upon the region. People must understand this is the only way for a long lasting peace. We do not have to hug each other all day long ,but at least understand each other, feel empathy and strive toward co-existence.

Let me correct you. The facts are sacred I haven't changed them a bit. If you think that something (I am referring to facts here of course ,not to opinions) I said through all of my posts was incorrect and you would like to correct me then go ahead. Since you hold a different opinion to mine ,yet I am not sure a completely different perspective , it is natural that you think that what I am saying seems very odd. I am not 'twisting' anything I am just shedding a new light on it, I am showing you the side you usually don't see, the hidden side of the moon if you would like.

I do not think you are hypocritical. You see if I was trying to accuse anyone of hypocrisy eventually you would see that almost every nation or people were hypocrites. I believe you can not judge a man by his parent's past. This is just completely wrong! A son of a murderer is not a murderer and also wouldn't necessarily become a murderer. He shares his genes ,but he doesn't share his personality and beliefs.

Furthermore, Israel is a very small country. There is a good old joke that says that whenever two Israelis sit on a cup of coffee they would always find a third Israeli they both know. What is even more funny about it that up until today this joke has never let me down and it is actually very true. Now I know people in the IDF , my parents & my grandparents worked and fought along with the IDF and for the sake of Israel , my teachers are friends of the developers who created the Iron dome system , I am myself related to some of the previous political figures in Israel. I know the people here I know that they are very sympathetic and hold very high morals which I grew on. Those are not the kind of people which kill people so willingly. I know the Israelis. Sometimes they are a little rude , sometimes they are tactless and sometimes they have a big ego. But they are also kind hearted and very ethical people and I admire them for that. All of those Israelis go to the army eventually. That is why I can tell that those people are not murderers.

About the united states it will be hard for me to tell since I am not a US citizen like you. I can tell that from here it seems that the US is not a country of terrorists or war criminals. But hey, you live in a free country right? You can think ,say and express yourself however you want.

BossMan, I totally agree that the establishment of Israel was a huge injustice. It was also really stupid. However, it is not 1948 now. It is 64 years and a few generations later. Most Israelis were not around when the nation was founded. What should be done now?

I know a lot of friends of mine who are murderers. Just because I like them doesn't mean they didn't participate in murder. In their minds they did what was necessary to protect all the people with them that got sent overseas to fight. But killing someone under the order of a commanding officer doesn't magically make it not murder.

It's not like the general population needs to be necessarily evil in order for a country to commit terrorism and war crimes. You just need a good percentage of them to be misinformed. They have to be to run the machine effectively. If Israelis or Americans gave real thought into what the fuck they were doing, they wouldn't join the military. I'm not accusing the Israel people of being remorseless assholes. I'm accusing them of not dealing with a very uncomfortable but necessary dose of self-reflection. They need to understand they are at least 50% of the reason there isn't peace, just like how they're at least 50% of the reason Hamas is in power.

Originally Posted by BossMan

While my opinion here has already been reflected by a number of people I just decided to share a few fun facts to avoid redundancy:

-Albert Einstein was offered presidency of Israel, he rejected it. He also opposed the establishment of a Jewish state with borders and an army, and he never wavered from arguing forcefully for equal rights and equal power for the Arabs whom he called “kinfolk” of the Jews. While the Zionists will have you believe that Einstein was a champion of Israel this was far from the truth.

-My entire family is from Palestine, we still have documented proof that shows we own a land and home there. After my great grandparents were forced out of there homes to flee to Syria, the Zionists took over there home and converted it to a museum of Jewish history.

-Falafel and Hummus are considered to be national dishes of Israel and Jewish food even though its pretty much common fact this was borrowed from Arabic culture. It just shows what a weak culture the Zionists have.

-Palestine was originally under British mandate before giving the land to the Zionist movement. When realizing what they had done the British ordered the immigrant ships to turn back, when they refused the British shot down Jewish immigrant ships on there way to Palestine.

-It is a widely accepted belief that is substantiated by a great amount of evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons. Despite this evidence being brought up countless times to the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Association) for investigation it is shot down and ignored. Meanwhile, Israel criticizes Iran for developing nuclear weapons.

-Marlon Brando admitted once on public television that Hollywood was basically run by Jews and showed open support for Israel as a result. As soon as his career started to end he did a total and sudden switch and dropped all support for Zionists and became in full support of Palestine.

-Famous political and linguist genius and MIT professor Noam Chomsky is known for his criticism of Israel and Zionism in general. Noam Chomsky also advised Norman Finkelstein (who also opposes Zionism) on his thesis, who went on to become another great political mind. He is also a known Jew.

Long story short Israel is an illegally obtained country by international law that has a weak culture and generally speaking lacks tact in international affairs. The only reason Israel even succeed as a nation was not because of the will of the people but rather the support of the West, namely America, to ensure its influence on the Middle East.

Mark my words, Israel's time is numbered and will likely be the powder keg for the next major world war which will be bloodier than WW1 & WW2 combined. If that war ever does happen, expect HUGE conservative reforms.

Those 'facts' are not that accurate... Let me correct them a little.

-Although Albert Einstein did decline the proposal to be the president of Israel ,he did support the socialist zionist stream and contributed his first papers on the theory of relativity (I speak of the rare and the original calculations and papers he wrote and have not published) along with the rights on the use of his name.In the article "Our Duty Towards Zionism" Einstein said that he prefers a regulation with the Arabs of Israel over a state. His way of viewing Zionism was quite special and he supported zionism from humanitarian reasons. Einstein was clearly a pacifist and he never encouraged any form of the use of force. In addition here is another quote of Albert Einstein : "The Jewish people in Palestine didn't fight for political independence for it's own sake , but to achieve Jewish immigration from many countries, where Shatzam existence was in jeopardy".

-Most of the Arabs who lived here back then actually fled before the war , I know that a few of them were forced out of their homes. I tried to look for museum of Jewish history in Israel and there are only three I am familiar with: one is inside the University of Tel-aviv ,the second is nearby the university (Although it is a museum for the land of Israel) and the third is actually in The west Bank O.o . So what is the name of the museum exactly or at least what village/city did you come from?

-The Humus and the Falafel are more related to the culture of Israel itself as a country (which includes the Arabs, the Druze , the Bedouins & other minorities). Although personally I can tell you that if you want to think of those dishes as Lebanese , Syrian, Egyptian or of any other Arab country then go ahead .
The Jewish culture is heavily influenced by Judaism ,but we also have many poets , authors and in this modern times also artists and theaters .

-Israel was first ruled by all kind of people as the Israelis (All the 12 tribes including Judea and is the origin of the jews) , which separated to Judea (us) and Samaria (the other tribes) ,then came Assyria and exiled the Samaria , then came babylon which exiled the jews after the rebelled , then came Persia which retrieved the Jews to Israel, then came Alexander Mocdon , his crown was separated into two rulers: Ptolemaic dynasty & Seleucid Empire, the Seleucid empire was driven away by the jews (And that is why celebrate Hanukah), then after about 160 years if I am not wrong came the roman empire, which collided into two empires that one of them (Byzantine) ruled the area , afterwards came the Islamic empire ,which was replaced by the Umayyad Caliphate, which was defeated by the Abbasid Caliphate, which was conquered by the Great Seljuq Empire(They came from the area of Kazahstan & mongolia), Then came the Crusades, After them the came the Mamluk Sultanate, which was replaced by the Ottoman empire and only then came the british! Now you can clearly see that the Jews was a lot before the young british mandate so it was originally under jewish rule .
Also the british publish what you might refer to as the "White Book" which limited the amount of jews that were able immigrate due to the complaints of the Arabs which convinced the British to shoot at holocaust survivors.

There is no clear evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons. In my opinion it is truly plausible ,but it seems Israel doesn't have any intentions of using it. The accepted opinion around the world today is that if Israel owns nuclear weapons it would be in order to create a deterrence of it's enemies. Iran on the other hand declares publicly it wants to demolish Israel & the US along with the western world. When fanatics like that get their hands on nuclear weapons nobody can be sure what will happened.

-What are you trying to say here? Jews are controlling the system? If so it is racist. The story sounds like some here was angry at his boss.

-The country with the most Jews today is Israel and most of the Jews today support Israel and see it as a Jewish state. What counts here is what the majority of the Jews think .

Long story short jew through the ages strived to come back to Jerusalem , they came back , they worked really hard for it from all aspects (I already described all of the action in a previous post) ,unlike today they gained almost no help from anybody (Unless you count the boxes of vodka from russia as something helpful), they won against all odds and gained Israel once more.

Mark my words there will be no major world war in the nearby future. One day a Palestinian state will be established besides the state of Israel and live in peace with it.

Originally Posted by Original Poster

I know a lot of friends of mine who are murderers. Just because I like them doesn't mean they didn't participate in murder. In their minds they did what was necessary to protect all the people with them that got sent overseas to fight. But killing someone under the order of a commanding officer doesn't magically make it not murder.

It's not like the general population needs to be necessarily evil in order for a country to commit terrorism and war crimes. You just need a good percentage of them to be misinformed. They have to be to run the machine effectively. If Israelis or Americans gave real thought into what the fuck they were doing, they wouldn't join the military. I'm not accusing the Israel people of being remorseless assholes. I'm accusing them of not dealing with a very uncomfortable but necessary dose of self-reflection. They need to understand they are at least 50% of the reason there isn't peace, just like how they're at least 50% of the reason Hamas is in power.

You see there are actually very big disputes here about when one should obey orders and one shouldn't obey orders. Or for example if we take the recent big dispute when a soldier can use weapons to defend itself and when does a soldiers must refrain of using weapons even if it means running away.

I agree that what you mentioned might lead to war crimes. Although I claim that we mostly do not commit war crimes on regular basis and I believe it is wrong to call Israel a terrorist state or to call Israeli soldiers murderer. Sure we might miss once or twice or a soldier might shoot someone by mistake and you know what there are sometimes ,rarely that they would such a thing on purpose (I speak of actions of the IDF). But those things are not that common.
Most people here use their heads , they serve in the army because the believe they need to protect their country. You see even if people will decide to not go to the army ,terror will not stop so fast and besides let's not forget that Israel has many other big problems. Hizbalah in Lebanon, The Chemical weapons in Syria, The border with egypt which is quite inconvenient from more than one aspect and not to mention the Iranian threat. If people wouldn't join the military here nobody will deal with all those other threats for us.
Now since we can't quit the army the only possible way to gain peace is through negotiation and co-operation between the Palestinian Authority. Although those things can not happen when terrorists in Gaza threat Israel with missiles , or when settlers vandalize Palestinian property (I highly condemn those acts of "Tag Mehir") or when Palestinians throw rocks and crowd around Israeli vehicles and Israeli soldiers.

I agree that both of the sides need to do some thinking ,but when it comes to morals I think that the IDF soldiers can sleep well at night. The IDF emphasizes values as Human life, Purity of arms, Human dignity (Those are by the way parts of the declared code of conducts of the IDF). Not every army even cares for morals.

Now since it is already quite late here I will now sum up. The IDF is a very moral army and that is because the people who serve in it are very moral in the humanitarian essence of the word. People can't just ignore it. On the other hand I do agree that more efforts can be done towards peace from both sides.

You may or may not need the IDF to protect you from your neighbors. That doesn't make the IDF a moral army from any sort of objective standpoint. This is probably where you and I will differ most, because I assume since you're Jewish you believe something like absolute morality exists, given to us by God. I'm sorry if I'm assuming too much, but would you agree that if God believes something is just, then it's definitely just? And if he believes it's unjust, then it's definitely unjust?

This is where we'll have trouble finding common ground, I do not believe morals are given to us by God, and if such a being exists I believe he's making it up as he goes along, just like everybody else, and is not in any better a position to decide right from wrong as anyone else.

But I digress, my point is that I don't think it means shit if you can make an argument that the IDF is morally righteous. In fact I believe that attitude inhibits Israel's ability to find peace with Palestine. As long as Israel remains distracted justifying the actions of its IDF, how are the Israelis supposed to grasp the pain they have inflicted from systematically and violently displacing Palestinians? And until they grasp that they have actually caused a lot of pain, how can Palestine trust them not to cause more?

First, you assumed that I am a religious person. That is a very wrong assumption. I am a secular Jew and tend to be agnostic. No I don't think one can be completely moral, although I think one can aspire to be completely moral. In my opinion morality is an invention of humans. Along the history it varied from society to society ,but every society had a codex of morals it sticked to according to what I like to call 'the imaginative order'. I don't want really to get into it at the moment ,but all these kinds of moralities were based on different myths that were meant to create a certain order , both in ancient times (Hammurabi's code as an example) & in modern times (The American constitution for instance). That is how I view morality , you may agree or disagree , I fully accept any response and respect it from the bottom of my heart.

Now back to the point. Before anything else I will say that I don't see how one can say that Israel doesn't need to protect itself. We have many enemy countries around us, irrational leaders call for our destruction in public, we face attacks against our civilians and in addition all kinds of countries & organizations are trying to grasp weapons that will lead to our physical destruction in practice. How can one say that we are not under threat ? how can one even claim we don't need to defend ourselves!?

The Israelis are suffering, every Israeli knows or is related to at least one soldier, one human which died in battle ,every Israeli heard an Alarm at least once in their lives , every Israeli knows that people want him dead along with his family and friends, every Israeli knows that there is a chance that something will happen to someone he loves. This is not the US. This is a complicated country where people have complicated lives in a complicated reality. When people live in a that kind of reality they don't just go around and piety their enemies that easily. Even so we do piety them. Maybe because we know how is it to be killed and murdered for no reason we don't kill innocent civilians.

You see reality here as very one sided . The Palestinians are suffering! The Palestinians are poor! The Israelis are bad! is usually all we hear. No one tries to see the Israeli side , nobody even tries thinking that the Israelis are also suffering , no one tries to understand them. It seems to me that instead of looking objectively at reality and seeing both sides you just sympathize with one of them. That is why I think you call only for the Israelis to sympathize with the Palestinians. I haven't even once saw you saying that the Palestinians should stop terrorism ,accept Israel , educate their children towards peace. You only speak of what Israel should do and what it shouldn't do. Peace can't be achieved if only Israel will act. The Palestinians must act as well. One of the biggest claims of the right wing in Israel is that the Palestinians do nothing towards peace. You see while Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip , agreed for the establishment of a Palestinian government and gave it power, acted toward the improvement of the Palestinian economy( which actually improved), supplied the Palestinians food ,water and electricity and let the the Palestinians run the most sacred place to the Jewish people (Where once the temple stood) , while we did all that I can't find anything the Palestinians did to promote peace with Israel. How can I counter these fact? What can I say to someone who claims that "There is no partner!" ?. In order to reach peace the palestinian must understand that they must act! They must make concessions! just like Israel should. We already understand that. That is why we were able to reach peace with Jordan & egypt (Which were our greatest enemies of that time). That is why the Palestinians must educate their children towards peace , believe in peace ,desire peace & be ready to make concessions towards peace. Only then the ground will be prepared for peace. Only when the ground is ready real peace can be achieved.

Beefer

Do you or do you not recognize that soldiers killing ungunned protestors is wrong? We can't have peace if we don't first recognize the crimes of our own governments.

Originally Posted by juroara

Beefer

Do you or do you not recognize that soldiers killing ungunned protestors is wrong? We can't have peace if we don't first recognize the crimes of our own governments.

Usually protestors are not killed by the IDF. One of the IDF's values is purity of arms. That means that weapons are used only for the sake of missions (or self defense). Most demonstrations in the west bank are replied by deploying soldiers or by using Riot control measures (In a very similar way to any other place around the world). If you referred to the flotilla then know that it is a special case where soldier's lives were in danger, also note that 'ungunned' doesn't mean harmless or not aggressive .Having already discussed this topic , I'm not going to repeat anything said previously unless someone has something new to say this certain case.

Look I don't believe the Israelis are bad. Okay? I just think they're misguided. And the Palestinians are misguided as well. Open dialogue can't happen if either side refuses to accept responsibility for their own awkward boners.

I don't think two states can be expected to coexist in the same territory. It's a very small area that shares a lot of natural resources. Setting up two states to represent competing interests in that area is never going to work perfectly, no matter how many concessions you make. I think a more radical goal, a federal or canton system with representatives from former Israel carried over would be a better long-term outcome. You can have checks and balances to shut out the extremists. You can make the regions highly autonomous to appease the people who are worried about the effects of a Jewish minority or uncontrolled migration or are religious conservatives. You can make the merger as gradual as you want, the boundaries porous or strict, whatever. (I would be happy to hear any arguments against this type of one-state solution, I've got very little invested in this view.)

There is responsibility on both sides, of course. But the Israelis and the Palestinians both had to suffer while chasing their natural interests through violence. Why not blame the British Empire or the Ottoman Empire, who also contributed to the current situation? Perhaps there should be a movement for the UK and Turkey to offer support for the healing of the area their predecessor states mismanaged. They got off scot-free, after all.

Until a stable solution can be achieved, there will be conflict whether violent or not, and of course that should be minimised. I can't criticise the IDF for their effort in protecting their people, even when people get caught up in it, it's just what armies do. They're actually doing well for the situation. But there is a lack of a coherent view of what the end situation should look like, versus reacting to the latest crisis or whatever.

Edit: After actually thinking about this for a while, the one-state solution seems just as unworkable as a two-state solution. But the point stands that reactive thinking doesn't work any better anyway.