Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
Why do you want to keep beating a dead horse over my terminology and not the actual point I was making? The very negative things you said do amount to trashing, but that is not what is important. My point is that you have a right to say negative things about the government. Under a totalitarian government, you would not have such a right.
1) Your "trashing" is someone else's truth-telling. That is just your opinion. And sorry to be so "negative"--we can't all be as positive as you that war is absolutely the right thing to do.

2) Why do you keep bringing up the fact that under a totalitarian goverment I wouldn't have the right to free speech? It is not relevant to the current conversation, unless you think the terrorists are going to take over our government sometime soon. I don't get your point. Are you trying to say that because in the past we have fought wars that appeared to be justified, any war now is? Are you saying that if we didn't keep the Soviets out of Afghanistan, we would be under their control now? I just don't know why you say that, I'm not "beating a dead horse".

OK, I found some stuff about the pipeline. That's a start. It's not really a secret, so you can find much more about it if you look, in case you don't like these sources.

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm
http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=234
http://www.thedebate.org/thedebate/afghanistan.asp
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/12.30A.afgh.pipe.htm


And while I'm at it, I'll correct something that I said earlier. I said that the Bush administration gave the Taliban something like a million dollars in the spring of 2001--I was way off. They gave $43 million to them in May 2001, for a total of $124 million that year.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30166

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
We are not targeting civilians, we are killing as few as possible, and the people of Iraq vote in higher percentages than we do, even in the face of death threats for voting. That speaks volumes about how much so many of them cherish democracy.
How much do they cherish religious freedom? Or is that not necessary for a democracy? How can they "cherish" an institution they've never known and is not part of their culture?

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
You made that up. Look at one of the drug or church and state threads and see otherwise.
OK, you may disagree with them on that point, but when you say that disagreeing with them about a war is "trashing" them it tends to make you sound like you'd just about go along with anything they said, if they told you it was the right thing to do.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
I never said all of those situations are exactly the same. Why are you going on about that? Yes, I think we should have allied with the Afghans against the Soviets.
See if you still think that after you learn about the real reasons for our planned invasion, which preceded 9/11. The only reason to keep the Soviets out was to keep the area safe for our oil interests--that is all. If you admit it's all been for oil, you may very well agree that we should have sided with the Taliban.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
And no I did not start the insults. You did.
No, you did.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
It is a conspiracy if so many people were making false claims about the justifications for the war so they could pursue an economic interest.
Well, you think of a conspiracy as something that is hidden, or tried to be covered up. The facts in this matter are not hidden at all. I guess it's just that most people don't care. You don't have to look very hard for it. Most of it has been reported in mainstream media, and it's not very hard to find. I don't think most people who know about it care as long as they think it will keep gas prices cheap. Most people that I disagree with about the war wouldn't hesitate to admit that it is all for economic reasons, they just think that it is worth it, which I don't. The lies are politics, and serve to make anyone who doesn't know a thing about it, which obviously includes a large number of people, feel better. I wouldn't know how the ignorant vs. the uncaring are split, percentage-wise; but it doesn't really amount to a conspiracy.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
I responded to your ad hominem point that I don't know history and don't know what I'm talking about. Stop playing innocent. It's not going to work.
I'm no logic major or whatever, knowing exactly what constitutes an ad hominem, but I was not launching a personal attack at you by saying you don't know what is going on. It seems obvious to me that you don't know the recent (last 30 years) history of what our government has done in the middle east. If you take that as an insult, I'm sorry, but I was just stating what I thought to be true, and why maybe you don't understand some of my points. I'm not trying to "play innocent", I really didn't realize why you had insulted me personally and claimed I started it. I understand now why you attacked me, because you were retaliating against a perceived insult, but that is not how it was meant; really. I still think that part of the problem may be a lack of historical perspective on your part. Again, not meant as an insult, just me saying what seems to be true and which is relevant to the argument.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
Are you going to read what I write this time? Remember that it was the conglomeration of these reasons and that nobody in the administration claimed any one of these alone would have been used as a reason for war.
OK. I never saw you list them in order of importance, just refer to the "many reasons".

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
1. The Hussein regimes history of terrorism, one case in which they used WMD's, and their support of terrorist organizations and Palestinians suicide bombers, taken into consideration in light of the fact that six governments and the U.N. reported that they had stockpiles of WMD's. One less terrorist government means a whole lot less funding and less access to powerful weapons.
Hussein--our guy. Obviously our policy of allying with scum back-fired, just like with the Taliban. I know you agreed with this already, but it's kind of an important point. There were no WMD's; which we obviously knew, because we don't attack countries with WMD's.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
2. Continuation of Gulf War. The Hussein regime violated our ceasefire on several (terrorism) grounds for twelve years, and the stated consequence of noncompliance was overthrow.
We already talked about the reasons for the first gulf war, which Bush Ist wanted to happen, and most likely set Hussein up.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
3. Creation of large democracy in the heart of the Middle East. The idea is to create prosperity and education in a place where poverty and despair bred the suicide bomb mentality and to influence surrounding nations to move toward democracy once Iraq (and Afghanistan) becomes far superior economically and socially to the surrounding nations.
I don't think that is going to happen. You can't predict the future, so your opinion on the matter of whether it will work or not is no better than mine.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
4. To influence surrounding nations to comply with our anti-terrorism measures and to stay in check. Khadaffi of Libbya is a good example of where that worked.
Or else we will invade them too? Can't be done. We're 10 trillion dollars in debt, growing by 1.5 billion per day.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
4. To vacuum up as many potential terrorists as possible.
Yea right, at the same time as we are building a peaceful democratic society there. I don't know how you can say that with a straight face.

Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
5. The end of severe oppression and genocide is a great thing, and it is an excellent bonus in a war fought for also the other reasons.
Well we better get ready for some more debt, because it's going to cost a lot to do it for everyone.

UM, I have to assume you believe what you are saying, and not just giving people an opportunity to express their extreme unhappiness with our government, altho sometimes I wonder. I do thank you for the outlet. I think that you have an extremely simplistic viewpoint on this matter, and your arguments are based on opinion and speculation, rather than objective facts. Since a lot of what you are saying is based on what is supposed to happen in the future, I guess we'll see.