Thread: Discuss your thoughts without arguing.

Originally Posted by Sandform

WTF Minerva! Where did your post go lol.

Demensions are just a concept. Length, width, and height make up space. Space itself is also a concept, something derived from the way we percieve reality. So demensions by themselves don't exist, but they are concepts to explain another concept known as space. I'm not even entirely convinced space itself exists the way we believe it to.

Well physics is based on 'just a concept' then. You can say anything is a 'concept' why do you choose to say it now at this critical point where we must get clear for the foundation of physics. Your not entirely convinced of your education to suggest then that space is different to how we believe. I think what I was taught in school was also wrong but I think there is more to this science than just a concept. Our technology has effects in the world and these concepts are what we rely on to function in the world and will determine our success.

Originally Posted by volcon

i made the mistake of allowing myself to come here while under said influence of energy drinks, my above posts werent really... well thought out, and i apologize.

Thanks that's a very desirable result from you.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Well physics is based on 'just a concept' then. You can say anything is a 'concept' why do you choose to say it now at this critical point where we must get clear for the foundation of physics. Your not entirely convinced of your education to suggest then that space is different to how we believe. I think what I was taught in school was also wrong but I think there is more to this science than just a concept. Our technology has effects in the world and these concepts are what we rely on to function in the world and will determine our success.

Concepts can work without being completely correct. What we do is explain things in a way that works for us. Just because it works doesn't mean it is exact. From what we see, we explain things. However, we've developed the ability to see, sight isn't an inherent property of the universe. All we know is that our concepts work. An idea can work based on the wrong foundations if the wrong foundations are based on a true foundation that isn't known...In this way there is no reason to abandon our concepts just because a piece of the concept doesn't make sense to some.

For example women have morning sickness during pregnancy because they feel sick and food repulses them. Certain foods cause deformations and miscarriages. It stands to reason that morning sickness lowers the chance for that. Women are doing it based on the idea that some food tastes bad it makes me sick. All the body knows is that the food makes her sick during pregnancy. It knows nothing of the damage the food can cause. However, the foundation of the visible purpose for the morning sickness to persist is because it decreases miscarriage. An underlying foundation was true for an overlying foundation that was derived from it, which was also true, like dimensions, but not true in the same way.

I guess what I'm saying is that dimensions by themselves don't technically exist, but what they represent is technically correct.

Concepts can work without being completely correct. What we do is explain things in a way that works for us. Just because it works doesn't mean it is exact.

If it works that's all that matters for this discussion. That's the point of why I want to use physics because the more effectively it works the better. There is a very good chance the more you understand the more effectively it will work. For this reason understanding is the key and saying something is 'just a concept' will not progress us.

From what we see, we explain things. However, we've developed the ability to see, sight isn't an inherent property of the universe. All we know is that our concepts work. An idea can work based on the wrong foundations if the wrong foundations are based on a true foundation that isn't known...In this way there is no reason to abandon our concepts just because a piece of the concept doesn't make sense to some.

Wait a minute. While that is true if you find something more effective you're not going to cling to the least effective foundation you're going to use the more solid sophisticated understanding as your foundation. You're certainly not going to stop looking for something more improved just because you have something that slightly works. Remember in the other thread how you said you are too lazy. Perhaps that is why you think it's best to just sit on your current understanding without reason to look further into things. My reason is I am not entirely satisfied with the technology within my reach and not satisfied with my current understanding of things so I seek further.

I guess what I'm saying is that dimensions by themselves don't technically exist, but what they represent is technically correct.

They don't exist but they are correct? I see a problem with that something cannot be correct when it doesn't exist haha.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

I seek further.

I find that hard to believe.

The reason the point, line and plane(square) don't exist is because they don't have finite dimensions. A point is infinitely small, a line infinitely thin and a plane is also infinitely thin. By connecting the points (or lines or squares) in three dimensions, you have given them finite dimensions and hence they are an accurate description of something that exists.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

They don't exist but they are correct? I see a problem with that something cannot be correct when it doesn't exist haha.

I suppose all of those mathematical proofs and theories aren't correct either since they are concepts applied to shapes and forms...and they don't exist...we should throw them out then huh?

Wait a minute. While that is true if you find something more effective you're not going to cling to the least effective foundation you're going to use the more solid sophisticated understanding as your foundation. You're certainly not going to stop looking for something more improved just because you have something that slightly works. Remember in the other thread how you said you are too lazy. Perhaps that is why you think it's best to just sit on your current understanding without reason to look further into things. My reason is I am not entirely satisfied with the technology within my reach and not satisfied with my current understanding of things so I seek further.

When did I say you would use the least effective foundation?

Remember what I said earlier...you can have something based on the wrong foundation, but it is still right because it is dirivitive of the true foundation.

Where did I say you would stop looking?
What you don't understand is that we already know what it is I'm speaking of that is beyond dimensions, it is called reaction. Energy applied which equals a result.

I have a problem with the non existent dimensions creating an existent 3rd dimension. I think I can find a better foundation. Instead of saying the dot is non existent. It would make more sense to say everything came from the dot.

The dimensions aren't non-existent.

But please do go on with your explanation.

This is really a brilliant thread, Minervas. About time someone sat down and tried to have a discussion while remaining civil. It looks very interesting too, so I'll take a bit of time out to read the whole thing. Hopefully I can contribute something soon!

Fishy I respect that I am trying to be civil and just as well as positive towards people. In this thread especially I want to be careful what I say and to be the most polite I can be and would appreciate others make the same effort. This is meant to be my little space where I can get away from all that. There is just too much hostility on the forum sometimes. What you said about the war in the other thread made me especially angry and assuming about you and I expressed that. That doesn't mean I have anything against you as a person it's just what you wrote you understand. We are different people we have different perspectives.

I find it quite difficult myself to get into a decent, mature and respectful conversation.
It is really too bad. I find myself not responding very much because it usually turns into something else.

ahem

Originally Posted by adam has a dream

The dimensions aren't non-existent.

But please do go on with your explanation.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Fishy I respect that I am trying to be civil and just as well as positive towards people. In this thread especially I want to be careful what I say and to be the most polite I can be and would appreciate others make the same effort. This is meant to be my little space where I can get away from all that. There is just too much hostility on the forum sometimes. What you said about the war in the other thread made me especially angry and assuming about you and I expressed that. That doesn't mean I have anything against you as a person it's just what you wrote you understand. We are different people we have different perspectives.

If you are feeling hostility, then leave the thread and get off the internet, and go outside.

It's really that simple.

Grod feeling peaceful in communicating with people is better than isolating yourself each time you get hostile and over react. If someone can't make an effort to discipline themself in this area going outside won't change their weaknesses. Soon as they come back to reply and felt hostility they would have to leave again soon as they read it and nothing would be solved they wouldn't improve themself at all. You have never thought about progressing yourself perhaps so you can't understand why it's not such a good idea to keep avoiding your own anger.

First off, you should never let anything on the internet affect you. If it does, that means it's time to leave.

Secondly, this doesn't have to do with me, it has to do with you getting unnecessarily upset over words said on an internet message board.

Grod the internet is a form of communication this thread isn't about stopping yourself getting upset over discussion it's about being nice to people and contributing to their well being while taking part in the discussion and the ability to be able to do that. You can't discuss anything with anyone if you isolate yourself. But at the same time if someone needs to do that instead of being rude in this thread they should have definitely followed your advice. My point is they fail and this thread is an attempt to keep that failure away from me and my discussions with people who don't fail to be civil. It's not always that people are upset, angry or hurt but sometimes they have a habit of nastiness which irritates people who would rather be coming from a more easy going accepting sensible environment. Some place where those appreciate and discern at a much higher quality. Something Less barbaric.

^ Exactly.

The problem is that saying stuff like that only goes so far if you break your own rules, which the OP has obviously done.

Originally Posted by snoop

The problem is that saying stuff like that only goes so far if you break your own rules, which the OP has obviously done.

The real problem is that you did not even read the thread guidelines properly.

Originally Posted by MP

I am the owner of the rules and make the final decision what it means in this thread. I am the only one that can add or take away anything to these guidelines and I am the only one qualified to refer to them in regards to anyone.

So, in other words, you are a control freak. Have fun in your nice little thread here. I suppose everyone deserves some form of paradise. I won't bother you any more.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Grod the internet is a form of communication

rly

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

this thread isn't about stopping yourself getting upset over discussion it's about being nice to people and contributing to their well being

That's completely retarded. Why do you need anonymous strangers to make you feel good?

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

while taking part in the discussion

We can't disagree with anyone by your rules though, so there is nothing of worth to discuss.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

You can't discuss anything with anyone if you isolate yourself. It's not always that people are upset, angry or hurt but sometimes they have a habit of nastiness which irritates

I already told you not to let the internet make you sad.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

people who would rather be coming from a more easy going accepting sensible environment.

So a sensible one is where you are

Originally Posted by Minerva Phoenix

I am the owner of the rules and make the final decision what it means in this thread. I am the only one that can add or take away anything to these guidelines and I am the only one qualified to refer to them in regards to anyone.

gotcha

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Some place where those appreciate and discern at a much higher quality. Something Less barbaric.

You mean something more useless.

Here's a red flag for the day.

I was just watching the news and a story came on about people beaten up and abused in the street.

So this politician says "this kind of thuggery has no place in our society".

I realized this statement was just as bad as the thuggery because it was a nonsensical lie. If thuggery had no place why was it existing? It must have a place if it's happening otherwise you're ignoring reality. Then I realized why he would say that. If you convince people that something isn't an effect of something you escape the consequence of dealing with it properly. In essence saying it does not exist in our society when it does.

This is absurd thinking that has become a cliché we are suppose to recognize as good thinking producing something civil. The solution is overlooked in this statement by saying it has no place when it's going on around us. The statement allows thuggery to continue unharmed and ignored and is anything but good thinking. This is not a solution or civil but trying to make something go away with your imagination which is entirely uncivil and not practical to dealing with the very real existence of thuggery in society. What is even worse is that a journalist like me would have more sense than a politician. Which is something else that shouldn't have a place but it does because it happens.

What the politician didn't say is that which should be recognized as common sense and the responsible thing. Thuggery is happening because our society is causing it. We must find the cause producing thuggery so we may eliminate it's existence since we don't want it to have any place in our society. This makes a lot more sense but would lead to a solution. Which is probably why he didn't say it that way. Instead he wanted to say it's already solved but it's a shame it happened anyway.

Or is there something else going on besides a lack of logic? Are politicians making use of hypnotic suggestions to the collective subconscious mind? It is known in oratory that you don't say something to the masses that makes them uncomfortable but that which they do accept becomes implanted and followed subconsciously. If the masses were to accept that thuggery had no place and hence didn't exist there would be no reason to seek a solution to a nonexistent problem. When a problem is not recognized as existing in the collective mind of the masses we can then ignore thuggery. This reveals to us not only the true nature of the politician but why nothing is getting solved.

"Discuss your thoughts without arguing"? I thought this was one of the rules of the whole subforum.

Of course, I thought wrong, as I look around and see so many people heatedly arguing...I'd even go so far as to call them minor flame-wars.

"this kind of thuggery has no place in our society".

But couldn't the quote be a pledge of awareness? He does not deny that thuggery exists, and says that it does not belong in society. What follows his quote could be anything from more bashing of thuggery to a proposal to increase the efficiency of the police force. It is unsubtle bias to make a full opinion off of a single sentence, especially a slang phrase such as "____ has no place here." Shouldn't one need more than a common phrase to convict a person? I wonder what that politician's voting records were, and what he has concretely done for the people.

And to branch the conviction out to other politicians is also unfair. Politicians are people, varying in ideas, speed of action, boldness, and (as is the evidence you provided) idioms used in speech.

Could generalizations be what is brainwashing the psyche of the masses?