Thread: Do you believe in an eye for an eye?

Originally Posted by CrescentFox

As much as I honestly think people deserve to get their ass kicked, get shot, etc. it's still wrong and still being exactly the same as them

A criminal attacks the innocent.

Revenge attacks the criminal.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

Well I see where you are getting at Invader Tech, and I agree with you to an extent but this is why we have justice, police, etc. to get revenge in a more proper way. Voilence is only legal as self defense. By definition it is still morally wrong to hurt someone by voilent means even as an act of revenge.


Although sometimes, the case may be different...

Originally Posted by Invader Tech

A criminal attacks the innocent.

Revenge attacks the criminal.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

What about this.

Criminal attacks (or whatever) Innocent... Later in life, Criminal becomes saint. According to your justice system, you'd be killing an innocent after the revenge.

or

Criminal tortures and kills the Innocent. The Avenger tortures and kills the Criminal.

Whatever the case, the Avenger must be as "sick" as the Criminal. Or in the same state of mind at least. So who will do the vengeance on the Avenger? What makes the Avenger so different from the Criminal. Apart from their victim choices.

You focus on the history, as if someone else's past decides who the person is. Obviously this is what revenge is all about, but that's why revenge is wrong. When you take the knife to poke someones eyes out as revenge, you're doing the same thing you're judging someone else of. Perhaps the side effect of revenge can be cleaning the streets of undesirables (as in murderers and other sickos), but my point still stands.

Originally Posted by Goldney

Dammit I knew someone was going to say this clichéd saying. I knew it.

All sayings are "clichéd". The problem is people should take them serious, and not as clichés.

Ok..

If I narrow it down to just THIS story about the woman being blinded by a guy she wouldn't date.. do you think she is justified in asking that he be blinded as well? I personally think so.. what do you think?

I think you belong in the dark ages.

It is largely this prehistoric mentality which has caused many of the moral disasters of our past.

If one person, or group of people, attacks another, out of greed or whatever, you are saying, in at least some circumstances, that that entity is entitled to attack back. By the same logic, the first entity is then entitled to attack again, and so on ad infinitum.

The absurdity and extreme danger of this mindset is the whole reason for the modern legal system, which you seem to have completely misunderstood.

An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind. It's that simple.

Xei, I'll respond without insulting you or your mindset.

Doesn't the legal system in a sense "attack back"? You attack someone and the legal system attacks back.. sometimes with the ultimate punishment of death.

Plus neither she nor her family have taken the law into their own hands and blinded the man.. she is going through the court system to ask for what she feels is a fitting punishment and deterent to such an evil crime.

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Firstly, sorry if you felt insulted by my post, I'm largely using language to provoke a thoughtful response from yourself, as I think you are quite wrong in your stance that throwing acid at somebody's face is a viable response in modern society.

I see what you mean by the legal system 'fighting back'. What you have to understand is that the legal system does not - or at least should not in practise, obviously many countries are still behind - does not commit a crime itself. The legal system should involve detainment only, and this is for the sake of keeping the public from danger.

I should also point out that it follows that I am opposed to the death sentence. I guess you live in the USA, where you still murder people who have committed a crime. Where I live, the death sentence was abolished several decades ago.

Originally Posted by Xei

Firstly, sorry if you felt insulted by my post, I'm largely using language to provoke a thoughtful response from yourself, as I think you are quite wrong in your stance that throwing acid at somebody's face is a viable response in modern society..

I accept your apology and I thank you for it.

I do I understand how you could feel as you do but it was the victim who had acid thrown in her face resulting in agonizing pain, blindness and on-going surgeries.

She is now asking that a drop of acid be placed in her attacker's eyes which would probably be done by a doctor. Yes, this does sound cruel.. but is it any more cruel than what he did to her simply because she wouldn't date him?

Originally Posted by Xei

I see what you mean by the legal system 'fighting back'. What you have to understand is that the legal system does not - or at least should not in practise, obviously many countries are still behind - does not commit a crime itself. The legal system should involve detainment only, and this is for the sake of keeping the public from danger.

I should also point out that it follows that I am opposed to the death sentence. I guess you live in the USA, where you still murder people who have committed a crime. Where I live, the death sentence was abolished several decades ago.

Yes, I do live in the USA.. where do you live?

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Prison, punishment etc. never seemed much of a deterrant. Maybe to some extent, but it obviosuly isn't working. It's the mentality you have to change, you have to change the society. It's pretty obvious what's the main cause for crime in general, society itself. Untill that is fixed, well just keep crowding the prisons, since it's the only way to keep some order.

My view on punishment was expressed, indirectly I guess, in my previous posts. It's stupid.

I do I understand how you could feel as you do but it was the victim who had acid thrown in her face resulting in agonizing pain, blindness and on-going surgeries.

She is now asking that a drop of acid be placed in her attacker's eyes which would probably be done by a doctor. Yes, this does sound cruel.. but is it any more cruel than what he did to her simply because she wouldn't date him?

Of course, the original act was reprehensible, and such things will probably always happen. But you can't just attack back, either on a personal or a national level, as I have said; it'll just continue forever.

And I live in the UK... our government has reduced the place to a bit of a mess in recent times, but the legal system is in principle pretty good, and capital punishment was stopped many years ago.

I find it terrifying that a government could have the power to kill you.

The problem with power is entirely with the people too irresponsible to use it. Which is why I want to know how the hell George Bush got re-elected. I mean is he not the biggest monkey faced idiot? And correct me if im wrong (which I know all of you will) but didn't he start a war over "womd's" when there weren't any? A war that's costing a lot of innocent lives.... If half of the people over there believe in an eye for an eye I wouldn't want to be him.

Originally Posted by Clairity

...but is it any more cruel than what he did to her simply because she wouldn't date him?

Yes it is, because revenge is done by mentally healthy people.

This is one (probably mentally ill) person fucking shit up.

The revenge however, is a bunch of people teaming up around this man trying to find out what to do with him.
I'm sorry, but Clarity? I really didn't think you'd have an opinion like this. I'm sad to see that. Jeez.

Originally Posted by Maeni

I'm sorry, but Clarity? I really didn't think you'd have an opinion like this. I'm sad to see that. Jeez.

Maeni, have I let you down in some way by being honest in replying that if I (or a member of my family) was permanently blinded by someone in this manner.. my reaction would be that I'd want them punished in the same way?

I am probably one of the most compassionate, warmhearted people you will ever meet (maybe too much so) and I am steadfastly loyal.. but I am not perfect. I do have a failing when it comes to the innocent being harmed.

Upon reflection, my intitial reaction to such an horrific thing would be to lash out.. but, if the actual act of blinding someone else fell on me.. I really don't know if I could do it (just as I don't know if I could push the button to start a lethal injection or flip the switch on an electric chair).

I just don't know.. I hope I never have to know.

I'm sorry if your opinion of me has now been damaged.

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You don't need to be a butcher to eat meat.

Originally Posted by Clairity

Maeni, have I let you down in some way by being honest in replying that if I (or a member of my family) was permanently blinded by someone in this manner.. my reaction would be that I'd want them punished in the same way?

I am probably one of the most compassionate, warmhearted people you will ever meet (maybe too much so) and I am steadfastly loyal.. but I am not perfect. I do have a failing when it comes to the innocent being harmed.

Upon reflection, my intitial reaction to such an horrific thing would be to lash out.. but, if the actual act of blinding someone else fell on me.. I really don't know if I could do it (just as I don't know if I could push the button to start a lethal injection or flip the switch on an electric chair).

I just don't know.. I hope I never have to know.

I'm sorry if your opinion of me has now been damaged.

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To the first, well, I suppose I was expecting something different.
I see your point though, I would feel he should be punished aswell, maybe not in exactly the same way, but punishment none-theless.
I'm just not sure if I agree with it. Even if I feel it myself.

Some people at my school.. If they ever blinded me by throwing acid in my eyes... I'd totally want them blinded aswell.

I'm being controversial. Oh god what to do.
Especially if they could not fix the person up, for example, the guy I have in my mind has ADHD on-top of just being a little asshole who certainly knows how to contribute to racism.

I don't think they would be able to fix his mind, and he would stay annoying. That would be extremely hard to live with.

I have to admit I think I just changed my own opinion, after applying it to myself >_> Sorry.
I just don't think he should be punished with an eye for an eye. If I lose my 'eye', I will gain nothing by taking his 'eye', it won't replace the old.
I'd rather have.. Like... An eye for a large sum of money.

Just punish him in some other way, and have him pay it back somehow, and most importantly be sure he realizes what he did and that he won't do it again.

Maybe my opinion will change again, I dunno.
I don't think my opinion of you have been 'damaged', the things you said I had just not expected to come from you :p

But if just... If just we could find out what went wrong in their heads. Then we could solve those problems before it happened.
And when they were then fixed up, they would show up and say sorry.

If the person had realized he was wrong, and had said sorry in a fitting manner, then I still don't think a punishment like that would be fair at all.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I believe there are consequences for your actions. I believe in free will, and that we make our own choices, right or wrong. Lets just say I'm not a very forgiving person.

I agree. In most situations, I am a very forgiving person. Much of what happens to me, in the way of inconvenience, or emotional distress, I can shrug off, and just not lower myself to being a "victim" of the situation. But there are some things that people do that, if caught, I would like to know that they experience, in turn. Premeditated violence against the undeserving is just something I have little to no patience for tolerating. I believe I'm a person of very strong ethics, but it's just something that does not compute. I would love to say I don't support vigilantism, for reasons of being "civil" and "ethical," but I'd be lying (maybe it's all those comic books, cartoons and movies I grew up on? ). Some people deserve to know the type of pain they are putting people through. The reason many of them are able to go through with it is because of their detachment from the situation. It's not happening to them, so it's easier for them to believe that their own cause is equally or more important than the pain the person who's being attacked is feeling. I believe they owe it to their victim to experience that same attack.

And one might say "well, maybe he just felt justified, because she caused him pain." To that, I say that you can't fault someone for not being interested in you. It is not their offensive attack on you. You can fault someone for throwing acid in someone's face.

Ghost Rider has the right idea :

In order to address what kind of punishment is enforced we first have to decide what our goal is. Apparently the goal in this case is to keep him from doing such things again. There are other ways to keep him from taking such actions in the future.

If we succumb to using emotion to determine what our recourse is we will only end up creating a barbaric legal system which I would not want to champion.

I don't want to derail the thread but still, this thread begs the question. Is the criminal justice system working? If not what are our alternatives and how should we go about switching to them.

I would hope that if this happened in the U.S. they would deal with it appropriately and not be so childish as to be spiteful by blinding the man.

Originally Posted by Sandform

In order to address what kind of punishment is enforced we first have to decide what our goal is. Apparently the goal in this case is to keep him from doing such things again.

That is not all. We also need to encourage others not to do it, and we need to allow the victims the vengeance they crave and deserve.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That is not all. We also need to encourage others not to do it, and we need to allow the victims the vengeance they crave and deserve.

I was speaking of the woman's stated intent. Her intent was to specifically keep him from doing it again.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I was speaking of the woman's stated intent. Her intent was to specifically keep him from doing it again.

I interpreted it as her meaning to deter others from doing it, also.

I didn't read through this thread, but I most certainly do NOT believe in "eye for an eye."

If someone commits murder, IMO that person should be sent to life in prison rather than killed. Because otherwise the law is just as dirty as the scumbags it tries to eliminate.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I was speaking of the woman's stated intent. Her intent was to specifically keep him from doing it again.

She stated, "I don't want to blind him for revenge. I'm doing this to prevent it from happening to someone else."

When I watch the video I get the impression that she's also doing it as a deterrent to any other man who may be thinking of throwing acid on someone.

Now it appears that in some areas it's not even safe to go to school if you're female : http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapc...cks/index.html

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Hmm, well I just skimmed through it when I read it. When she said she wanted to keep it from happening again I thought she meant specifically him doing something again. I must have read it wrong.

Still, there are other ways in which we can prevent future crime without becoming evil overlords who care nothing about the people we are punishing. This man does have the potential to change and I think part of whatever his punishment becomes should be counseling.

Although where they are, I don't know. It really is situational. The laws need to be tailored to what is most effective and the means that are effective in one region aren't necessarily universally effective.

Karma has a way of coming back to people.

If it doesn't, at least I would take some small pride in knowing I'm not affected by what someone has done to victimize me...at least not to the extent that they had hoped for in doing so.

It's not much of a consolation prize. But that's how I feel regardless.

Forgiveness is a virtue more prized than revenge, in my opinion.

I would rather live in a world full of people that look for sane resolutions to conflicts, rather than a world full of people that impose their will on others....but I guess in that case we wouldn't really have reason to retaliate against anyone in the first place.

This is, of course, not to say that anyone elses posts on the matter are wrong. I myself have struggled with this question many times. It is only my experience that leads me to the conclusion I've stated...and as always it is subject to change pending necessary/overlooked insight.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Still, there are other ways in which we can prevent future crime without becoming evil overlords who care nothing about the people we are punishing. This man does have the potential to change and I think part of whatever his punishment becomes should be counseling.

The laws need to be tailored to what is most effective and the means that are effective in one region aren't necessarily universally effective.

Both extremely valid and solidly-stated points. An overly-biased attention to precendence in the judicial system often leads to the proverbial screwing of many victims, in my opinion.

Riding the fence is not particularly my favorite stance to take, but sometimes it's justified. Different situations require different approaches.