Thread: Do you believe in an eye for an eye?

I'm not denying I wouldn't "exercise revenge" if a certain situation occurred. So it would be hypocritical of me to equalize a murderer of child and the child's father taking revenge.
I'm trying to think generally where this takes us at a scale of humanity. Even though I couldn't fight my primitive nature if the situation arose, I do wish I would. Of course for such grand change in "justice" the same would have to happen on the other "evil" side. Which is wishful thinking. I can't argue at what you said, because a part of me doesn't disagree. I guess all my contradictions come from me being somehow split on such topics.
In essence I understand everything you're saying, but I guess the philosophy I constructed for myself and believe in includes such rather impractical contradictions (makes me feel as some christian I usually bash for not being able to explain what they believe).

If you want to try to understand what I believe, I'll try to explain. In essence I tend to deconstruct everything. As you can tell with most things in the universe things tend to lose meaning when they are deconstructed. The father avenging his daughter definitely didn't have the same motive, but he, as the rapist, acted on his urges. The only thing that makes the difference is the way you (or me in this matter) see the situation. Here is what causes the problem. If I can excuse the avengers actions, then why should the criminal be spared spared this luxury, if I want to be objective. Yes I know it's impractical, and "oh how shocking" that a person will defend a criminal etc. but this is how I see the world. It's not really fit for the level of reality humans inhabit, but it's something I can't change over night and don't really see as something to be ashamed of. It is though, rather perplexing when thinking about topics like this. A part of me would act this way and another part the other way. The only thing I can do is compromise. So I always wanted to see prisons as a way to remove unwanted people from the streets, rather than a punishment.

How does revenge (even locking people up without any kind of rehabilitation) help anything at all? ANYTHING?

Isn't revenge just a compulsive desire to harm another person for what they've done, as a result of a personal emotion?

And isn't that exactly the difference between 'justice' and 'revenge'?
In revenge, feelings are involved which force a person to think and act a certain way to harm another person, irrationally.
Justice is objective, it's rational. It's based on morality, laws and things designed to let society function properly.

So.. How is an eye for an eye justified when it's only goal is to harm another person for what they've done because you 'just feel so angry'?
Wouldn't it be better to find a better way of "punishing" somebody?

Isn't there a better way of treating people who've done wrong than to pour acid in their eyes, or to lock them up forever?


On another note... Why hasn't anyone responded to my earlier post?

I didn't notice they weren't responded to, but I read it and agreed.
So I'll just have to assume it's because you're points are awesome and indestructible

Originally Posted by Invader

Their motive. If you had a daughter, and she was tortured and killed, please don't tell me that your reason for getting back at the murderer is the same reason the murderer had for killing your daughter. That would be as absurd as suggesting that the American forces in WWII had the same mindset as the Nazis. Or maybe you really DO think that the American forces had to be as sick as the Nazis in order to kill them?

I like how you use "Innocent child" and "daughter" in a desperate attempt to make us angered at the murderer and give in to your opinion.

Personally, that's just pointless, because I hate them aswell.
But it still stands that if you as a father go out to kill him, then you're mindset was revenge, which is an emotion that took control of you and made you kill another person.

Another thing is, that personally, I don't understand a murderer like that, that in itself makes me feel it's wrong to judge him. Atleast before we do.
Revenge is bad, we teach children this so they don't get into a fight with someone who hit them.

Revenge is about punishment for a wrongful action(s), not punishment for who they are as a person. Being the nicest person in the world up until they'd kill someone in cold blood for malicious reasons doesn't excuse them for their actions.

Wait, I think we need to define "Punishment"
My definition would be a lesson to the person that teaches them what they did was wrong.

Jail usually doesn't teach them anything.
Killing them, well, rrright.
Blinding them with acid is probably going to make them hate you even more, especially if he later regrets what he did.

So you tell me: If the criminal poked out the eyes of an innocent child, and you poke the criminal's eyes out as revenge, you're actually doing the same thing that the criminal did? I fail to see how that's possible, as the criminal is not an innocent child. The motive is entirely different, and the direction of the action is going to other way.

You're not doing exactly the same, but I don't think either of them has the right to do what they are doing.
Murderers Motives: We don't know - So we need to find out.
Fathers Motives: Revenge

So let's say the father killed the murderer.
Now we have two 'murderers'.
One of which we know, and we know why he did it.
The other one, we have no idea, so now we can never find out what caused this, and we can never prevent it from happening again.

When there is a problem, we have to identify it and find a way to solve it. We can't just hack it down everytime it comes up.

Originally Posted by CryoDragoon

How does revenge (even locking people up without any kind of rehabilitation) help anything at all? ANYTHING?

1. It helps the victim and those who care about the victim feel better, which they deserve and the criminal owes them.
2. It creates deterrence for that criminal and others with a potential of committing the same crime in the future.
3. It keeps the criminal out of society for a while or forever.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

1. It helps the victim and those who care about the victim feel better, which they deserve and the criminal owes them.

When someone does something wrong, usually a good, honest "I'm sorry" is what we expect. And ofcourse that they don't do it again.

An apology is the norm. If the victim still wants to let out his inner angers on the target that 'deserve' it, and 'owe' it, then he can go get therapy, because we don't want MORE violence.

2. It creates deterrence for that criminal and others with a potential of committing the same crime in the future.

Like we used to hang criminals for display? And puplic executions?
I suppose it works. But that's the same as when the media demonizes things that they don't want us to use...

We need to educate them, not scare them.
Scaring will only make them hide. Take child molesters for an example. They will just be scared into hiding, and will be more careful, it won't stop them.

3. It keeps the criminal out of society for a while or forever.[/QUOTE]

It does. Because everything that is wrong should be annihilated as soon as possible. That is the only right thing to do.

Hitler was doing a good thing, if you think Jews were "wrong". He was keeping the "wrong" part of the world out of society for a while or forever.




no.

Originally Posted by Maeni

When someone does something wrong, usually a good, honest "I'm sorry" is what we expect. And ofcourse that they don't do it again.

An apology is the norm. If the victim still wants to let out his inner angers on the target that 'deserve' it, and 'owe' it, then he can go get therapy, because we don't want MORE violence.

An apology is not enough, and how could we trust apologies to ever be sincere when coming from the most evil people in society?

Revenge is therapy, and it is not the victim's responsiblity to inconvenience him/herself to such an extreme extent as going through thousands of hours of therapy for something that can be handled by a justice system that works.

Originally Posted by Maeni

Like we used to hang criminals for display? And puplic executions?
I suppose it works. But that's the same as when the media demonizes things that they don't want us to use...

We need to educate them, not scare them.
Scaring will only make them hide. Take child molesters for an example. They will just be scared into hiding, and will be more careful, it won't stop them.

They might be more careful by not molesting your kids.

Originally Posted by Maeni

It does. Because everything that is wrong should be annihilated as soon as possible. That is the only right thing to do.

I disagree. Some things have value. Scum does not.

Originally Posted by Maeni

Hitler was doing a good thing, if you think Jews were "wrong". He was keeping the "wrong" part of the world out of society for a while or forever.

I don't think Jews were wrong. I think Hitler was wrong. Are you glad he is dead? The Jews did not deserve what happened to them. Hitler deserved what happened to him. Huge difference.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

An apology is not enough, and how could we trust apologies to ever be sincere when coming from the most evil people in society?

That's why I added that we needed to be sure they wouldn't do it again. Some 'evil' people will lie. That's why we need to be sure.

Revenge is therapy, and it is not the victim's responsiblity to inconvenience him/herself to such an extreme extent as going through thousands of hours of therapy for something that can be handled by a justice system that works.

whewgeaawegrrrrrghhh

I disagree.

They might be more careful by not molesting your kids.

lol.

I disagree. Some things have value. Scum does not.

Value changes.
If we could 'cure' the "scum" instead of just getting rid of them, their value would rise.

I don't think Jews were wrong. I think Hitler was wrong. Are you glad he is dead? The Jews did not deserve what happened to them. Hitler deserved what happened to him. Huge difference.

I know, but Hitler did think Jews were wrong. So he was just doing what he thought was ridding the world of bad.
That's some pretty good intentions, but he went about it totally wrong, and the guys he thought was wrong werent actually, as you say yourself.

In this situation, I actually believe that an eye for an eye would benefit the attacker, although in subtle ways. He obviously needs to gain perspective on what he has done, and imprisonment didn't accomplish that since they said that he was still unremorseful and even believes the lie he has been telling himself, that he did it out of love for her. Suffering a few drops of acid in his eyes and the resulting blindness might help him to realize that what he did to her was still worse, and that he did what he did for selfish, spiteful reasons and not for love after all. If it were a matter of killing him I would say no, but this will give him the rest of his life to live free and able to contemplate the decisions he made, and how they affected him and others.

no..I dont

and I find all your scenarios of revenge, at best, show how emotionally childish you are

I don't believe an eye for an eye, I think that we all have the free will to do whatever we want, including an eye for an eye and even greater if we choose.

Whether it's 'right/wrong' in the eyes of anyone doesn't matter imo.

Originally Posted by juroara

no..I dont

and I find all your scenarios of revenge, at best, show how emotionally childish you are

I think your lack of explanation and poor grammar, at best, show how childish you are.

let me put it this way:
Two enemies in an action movie both have a gun pointed at each other. why don't they just shoot? because they don't want to get shot back! that's exactly what would happen if the justice system was an eye for an eye. much less crime.

If we had an eye for an eye law, the only people to kill would be those who are suicide bombers and those who think they'd get away with it. believe it or not, most murderers don't think that they'll get away with it. they know they'll be put in jail and they think it's worth it. not many people would give up their life just to kill someone.

And about the thing mentioned earlier about "might as well drop two nukes on America for japan", war has a different set of laws. that's why a good soldier is set apart from a serial killer. that is unless a person is killing just to kill and not out of patriotism. the i would call them a serial killers.

Originally Posted by ClouD

I think your lack of explanation and poor grammar, at best, show how childish you are.

Thank you, but I actually pride myself in being extremely emotionally mature. I know what real emotional maturity is. What is that you would like me to explain?

I am against all forms of hatred and revenge. I find any outburst of hatred childish, and the need to punish someone because they hurt you is about as childish as far as emotions go.

killing someone because they killed your daughter isn't going to bring your daughter back. revenge never gives back what was taken. Its just an outlet of hatred.

you can make all sorts of arguments how its justifiable it is to hate someone and then murder them. but how are you going to deal with people like me? and thousands of others who find your act of hatred, just that, an act of hatred?

If you murder someone, you should be locked away - whether you call it revenge or not. Who knows what the limit of your hatred is, what other heinous act you consider justifiable because of an unchecked emotion. Hatred knows no bound. You give it fuel, it will burn like a wild fire. You will hurt someone you didn't intend to hurt. And hurt yourself

There is nothing to justify

Originally Posted by juroara

Thank you, but I actually pride myself in being extremely emotionally mature. I know what real emotional maturity is. What is that you would like me to explain?

I am against all forms of hatred and revenge. I find any outburst of hatred childish, and the need to punish someone because they hurt you is about as childish as far as emotions go.

killing someone because they killed your daughter isn't going to bring your daughter back. revenge never gives back what was taken. Its just an outlet of hatred.

you can make all sorts of arguments how its justifiable it is to hate someone and then murder them. but how are you going to deal with people like me? and thousands of others who find your act of hatred, just that, an act of hatred?

If you murder someone, you should be locked away - whether you call it revenge or not. Who knows what the limit of your hatred is, what other heinous act you consider justifiable because of an unchecked emotion. Hatred knows no bound. You give it fuel, it will burn like a wild fire. You will hurt someone you didn't intend to hurt. And hurt yourself

There is nothing to justify

I didn't say there was. People do as they do, simple as that.

That you have taken the perspective of hating hatred/negativity to negativity seems a bit hypocritical.
I do as I do, and so do you, but do you acknowledge the hypocrisy?

'Should be locked away', because killing someone is so terrible -- because killing cockroaches means you SHOULD go to jail.

Justify your taking of freedom instead of saying there is no justification for taking freedom. There is just as much justification both ways.

In sarcastic response, you should be sent to jail for sending someone to jail.
Disgust is less civil than hatred.