Thread: The Real Problem With Homosexuality

No one move this to R/s! This is not about religion at all!

Some of you might have seen me sticking up for homosexuality in the past. What I want to get very clear from the start is that this is not a point against all types of homosexual behaviour, and it certainly does not pertain to what should be legal and illegal. Instead it is a warning, rather like you tell people to wear condomns without actually making it illegal for them not to (but I bloody would ).

Studies such as this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0617151845.htm have been used in defense of the argument that homosexuality is predetermined. While this solves some issues, I believe it causes others.

I have had the notion for a long time that there is something fundamental in human nature about uniting masculine and feminine aspects in relationships. I don't know for certain whether this is instinctive, but it's obviously culturally and in most cases socially prefferable for one partner to adopt a masculine role, and another a feminine role.

I hear too many people saying, "Look, some men just love other men, some women just love other women, that's it", as if it's that simple. It's obviously not! If most homosexuals have the brain structure of the opposite sex, then who are they going to find when they seek another homosexual partner? In most cases, someone who has the same brain structure. In this case we no longer have, for example, two gay men, we have to gay man lesbians.

Why is this a problem? It is not. As long as you don't want a masculine/feminine relationship*. However, most people DO. And for good reason. Obviously, there are people out there who are exceptions to the rule (I consider myself to be one), and that's okay. However, homosexuals ought to have the foresight that it will probably be very hard to find a suitable partner.

*(having the physical body of the opposite psychological sex makes no immediate difference to the emotions of a relationship, so this doesn't count)

I don't know much about gay 'culture', but I have heard and can easily imagine that many gay men, who don't exactly have their feet on the ground, will squander a lot of their time in fleeting relationships or simply shagging a lot because they are unable to handle the emotional implications. If this is how someone prefers to live, this is not a problem, however the people in question do so out of conformity or desperation, because they are confused.

I think there should be big changes made in public education about homosexuality. Political correctness has gone so far through the roof that many people dismiss this obvious problem and make it out as if any man/man or woman/woman relationship can be just as fulfilling as any man/woman relationship. We don't live in a unisexual utopia; this is a lie.

Since both statistically (see link) and by general knowledge, we know that effeminite gay people tend to far outweigh their counterparts, this in theory renders the chances of successful gay relationships to be far less than straight ones. If this is not the case, and gay relationships are just as successful, then the only other option is that it should be possible for anyone to love anyone romantically regardless of whether they have a masculine or feminine psychology. A lot of straight people aren't going to like this.

However, I would be extremely skeptical of any study done in this field because it's quite possible that the vast majority of gay couples involve the minority group. Which leaves a lot of very unhappy, single gay people. I haven't looked this up yet, but if I get any replies I will provide more info when I can.

(if you are furious about my claims, please keep your responses passionately angry, so I know how it feels)

Isn't this like the 2nd or 3rd thread on the same subject?

Dude if you are gay then you are just gay.

There's no "scientific experiment" to test and see if it's "predetermined"..wtf

Seriously.

There's no PROBLEM with homosexuality...it's just a preference. It's what YOU LIKE. NO "certain" brain structure makes you any different. From any other human.

Brain structure doesn't determine what you like...and if it does..you can consciously "change what you like".

I talked about ways to do this with subliminal messaging/imaging and NLP, but you got mad. Obviously that is too "mystical" for people, so i keep stuff like that in BD or religion/spirituality.

Brain structure certainly plays a role in sexual orientation, and from what information I have happened upon, it would seem as if the same qualities that make someone homosexual can make someone resemble the opposite sex psychologically. I'm sure they do to an extent. However, The gay men I have met don't behave much like women relationship wise. I honestly think gay culture makes men appear more effeminate than they are. In the same respect that straight men try to act tough, I think that openly gay men will affiliate themselves with feminine interests and mannerisms.

anyway, to respond to the main point of your thread: It is not my belief that a happy relationship depends heavily on the union of male and female characteristics. Too much importance is given to this aspect of relationships. It is mostly an excuse to deny gay people rights. It's true that women prefer manly men and men prefer womanly women for the most part, but gay men are looking for men, and I think that is what they will find, maybe with a dash of woman, but still plenty man enough. The same idea goes for lesbians too.

Originally Posted by Redeyedwolfking

It is not my belief that a happy relationship depends heavily on the union of male and female characteristics. Too much importance is given to this aspect of relationships.

Admittedly I picked most of these ideas up from spiritual theories, but I simply assume that they are innately natural because it seems so obvious that masculinity and femininity need to co-exist to survive. It has been the same way since the dawn of man. It is like a balancing force. Unless you have special people with specific interests, I would have thought it works the same way in relationships. But if I was wrong and it is simply an overexaggerated false dichotomy enforced by religion, then that is... well, simply mind blowing. Then we would be suggesting that really, the only thing enforcing the gender gap is physical attraction. And then, once Hard Wired has got his subliminalismus going we'll all be in love with each other. This would... perhaps be a better world. As long as you can bitch slap envy into submission rather like men do with women in Islam. And, if you ask me that's the only real dismissal of the masculine/feminine balance in history.

Update: I found an interesting statistic that approximately 30-67% of gay men have no quarrel with polyamory. Or maybe it was 30% involved, 67% open to it or something like that. This probably comes from the subculture because I thought that a natural effeminite mind would be just as hostile to the idea of polyamory as the female mind, and in general men have a better time embracing it. But, I'm not going to complain. If the proportions I mentioned in my starting post are correct; this is one potential way of providing lasting emotional stability to a lot of gay people, if they know they can handle it.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Isn't this like the 2nd or 3rd thread on the same subject?

Dude if you are gay then you are just gay.

There's no "scientific experiment" to test and see if it's "predetermined"..wtf

Seriously.

OMG... I'm... GAY???????????????



I suppose I should be the LAST person to come up with this stuff!

And anyway, WTF? That's the most retarded set of scentences I've seen in a good while. "If you are gay you are just gay". And then you go on to say that it's not predetermined? WhAt Do YoU mEaN?

I also want to remind you that I haven't started ANY threads on homosexuality other than ONE in the 'Help!' section. So stop pulling stuff out of your arse because it is bullshit. If you want to prove a point find me one (within a few months of posting). And that does NOT include references to the subject, the thread must be ABOUT homosexuality.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Obviously that is too "mystical" for people, so i keep stuff like that in BD or religion/spirituality.

Your opinion that we can 'change what we like' will also not go down well with anyone. Least of all the scientists. Can you do me a favour? Go out on the street and start sinking your teeth into molten tarmac and see if that suits your appetite. If you don't like it then STFU your point is useless.

Besides, if we CAN change our sexuality, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. It's fuck all to do with the subject, unless you're suggesting it as a cure for the problem.

But on that point, I'd love to see you 'subliminal message' a completely different brain structure away. It's obvious that a lot of homosexuals have different brain structures because they act like the opposite sex. If it's 'just a preference' then why does it just happen to be all to do with your personality as well?

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

There's no PROBLEM with homosexuality...it's just a preference.

And I have a preference to floor you. Is that not a problem? A preference does not equal flawlessness. You must analyse how the preference would play out on a social level and then try to see if there will be a problem. That's what I'm doing.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

Your opinion that we can 'change what we like' will also not go down well with anyone. Least of all the scientists. Can you do me a favour? Go out on the street and start sinking your teeth into molten tarmac and see if that suits your appetite. If you don't like it then STFU your point is useless.

That really isn't fair. There is a huge difference, because sex feels good, regardless of who you are with. Even a straight guy would probably enjoy sex with another guy, if they just relaxed and let themself enjoy it. However that does not make them gey, since most people do not want that sort of relationship.

It is kind of like saying you were created to masterbate with your right hand. You might like your right hand, you might be better using it, but its a choice. It is a preference. I am pretty sure with a little practice you would enjoy doing it with your left hand just as much. That said, who really cares which hand someone else uses?

With passionate anger,
Your text-wall is full of presuppositions.

Ridiculous topic that, through pseudo analysis and bias logic, poses to have found a problem that can be pointed at.

Ought to. Should. Obviously.

Idol, could you sum up in a few sentences what the point of this thread is? Pardon my misunderstanding, I just honestly don't quiet understand what you are trying to say or why.

I don't think I'll have anything to contribute to this topic, I've never studied homosexuality, I'd just like to figure out what you are talking about.

I haven't read much of this thread neither knows what's hapening with it right now. I only read the couple first posts. But i wanted to comment on this:

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Brain structure doesn't determine what you like...and if it does..you can consciously "change what you like".

I talked about ways to do this with subliminal messaging/imaging and NLP, but you got mad. Obviously that is too "mystical" for people, so i keep stuff like that in BD or religion/spirituality.

I approve this. It is possible and not so hard to consciously change what you like. I've done it a lot. A couple months ago, I decided I wanted to like every kind of food and so whenever I ate something disgusting, I would smile and tell myself that I loved it and i would simply appreciate the horrible taste until I actually like it.

The first time I ate sushi, I spat it in the garbage. I had been very interested about eating a sushi so its not like someone forced me. I truly hated sushi. I ate another one a couple months after and still hated it and then like I said, I decided I would like everything and when I saw another sushi, I got 8 (I was in a buffet) and ate them all. The first ones, I hated them, but I smiled and told myself I loved them. I appreciated it and then I started actually loving them. So the last ones, I actually liked a lot. I also took more. This proved to my family that it was possible to change your tastes. They hadn't believed me before that. I mean, at first I couldn't even eat one and once I tried, I would eat more than 8. And all that, without forcing myself. I was doing it 'cause I liked it. And sushi is far from being the only thing. I like everything now and that has changed my life. You guys should all try to like everything.

If you can change this, you probably can change your sexual orientation if you consider it as a preference. If you're homosexual and you like it that way, then, stay that way but don't say its 'predetermined' and that its impossible to change. Actually, i've read an article about gay guys unintentionally changing orientation. Their homosexuality had only been caused by the lack of male relashionships. So, becoming friends with more guys could itself help you change what you prefer sexually and make you straight. Again, I don't think you necessarily want that. Just saying, its possible to decide.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

I approve this. It is possible and not so hard to consciously change what you like. I've done it a lot. A couple months ago, I decided I wanted to like every kind of food and so whenever I ate something disgusting, I would smile and tell myself that I loved it and i would simply appreciate the horrible taste until I actually like it.

That means you didn't really dislike the stuff. You just assumed you would and had a bad mental image of it. As it turned out, your taste buds were right for it.

Could you be attracted to men if you tried really hard to be? Could the offensive line for the Oakland Raiders? Could Richard Simmons or that Adam guy from American Idol be attracted to women if they tried really hard to be?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That means you didn't really dislike the stuff. You just assumed you would and had a bad mental image of it. As it turned out, your taste buds were right for it.

Could you be attracted to men if you tried really hard to be? Could the offensive line for the Oakland Raiders? Could Richard Simmons or that Adam guy from American Idol be attracted to women if they tried really hard to be?

Yes, I did dislike the stuff. I wrote a paragraph about hating sushi and how after becomming willing to like everything, I saw sushi and liked it after I did my little ritual

1. Take something you don't like
2. Eat it.
3. Taste it
4. Smile
5. make yourself believe you like it
6. Taste it and appreciate it
7. Keep eating until you like it for real.

And yes, I'm pretty sure that if I tried, i could become homosexual by doing the 7 steps I just wrote but by editing them a bit

1. Find a homosexual guy interested in you
2. Have sex with him
3. Feel it
4. Smile
5. Make yourself believe you like it
6. Feel it and apreciate it
7. Keep fucking until you like it for real

Uh... Well, that's probably VERY gross so I'd suggest to masturbate to a porno of the other sex instead of actually having sex.

But why would a straight guy want to be gay? I can only see disadvantages. Per exemple:
1. Can't have kids that you actually made as a couple
2. The only way of penetration is gross
3. Disrespect from others

and the list goes on. I'm sure there's nothing bad with homosexual guys or girls themselves but I don't see why anyone would chose to be if they don't have to. I admit that it probably is hard to change your orientation though because it would feel so wrong and disgusting and stuff. That's why I'm not forcing Homosexuals to become heterosexual even though I think it is doable.

Originally Posted by SleepyCookieDough

1. Find a homosexual guy interested in you
2. Have sex with him
3. Feel it
4. Smile
5. Make yourself believe you like it
6. Feel it and apreciate it
7. Keep fucking until you like it for real

You have no idea how much I have tried that with women I was not attracted to. I very much would like to be attracted to practically all women. Do you know how much easier it would be to womanize if I could do that? I have slept with women that I tried all of that with but just absolutely could not become attracted to them. They would come at me, I would go along with it, and I would put out a major effort to enjoy it. Some of them I would try it with for more than an hour straight. It was hopeless. Preference is not a choice.

I still think you only got past an image barrier and not a physical barrier in your situations, which I consider revelations that you were wrong in thinking your taste buds wouldn't like stuff. It was the thoughts of the foods that you didn't like. Once you realized they taste good, you quit thinking they don't taste good.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

...In this case we no longer have, for example, two gay men, we have to gay man lesbians.

I stopped reading here.

Everyone seems to have points here, it's not like everyone can chime in with a million different opinions and you can all believe that you are correct, you are neive if you think like this. The human mind is complicated, we can look at every animal in the world and we are so determined to believe that WE are the most intelligent out of them all. So when religion used to say "All animals are heterosexual, therefore, God intends for us to have female mates if we are male, and vice versa;" THEN religion refers to animals as inferior to the human race and that we are "special". Although this isn't a clear contrast, you can still see the endless questions that could arise in order to "widen the plot-holes".
So when someone says "Listen, some men like men, some women like women, that's it."
I suppose they are correct, in a nutshell. I believe that nature isn't designed to a perfect scheme which can never be de-railed, because it can- wasps mate with orchid petals, humans can mate with the same sex. I do not believe that it is by any means efficient, because it isn't if everyone was homosexual then the human race could be wiped out. But the intelligence of humans and some other animals can cause them to ignore the instincts of their make-up. There's nothing to say that it's right or wrong, overall, morally- there's nothing wrong with it,
in terms of reproduction- it IS wrong.
You cant just sum everything up into one, not in our society anyway, humans have gone so far from the point that homosexuality is the least of our worries.

So you are saying its impossible to have a masculine/feminine relationship between two men?

If so, that is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while.

Originally Posted by CarmineEternity

So you are saying its impossible to have a masculine/feminine relationship between two men?

If so, that is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while.

Well it's a good thing that's not what I am saying then.

I am saying that since the MAJORITY of gay people appear to be effeminite, it ought to be harder to secure a masculine/feminine relationship. This might not even be right. I've already suggested that gay people may have 'half and half' qualities.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I am saying that since the MAJORITY of gay people appear to be effeminite, it ought to be harder to secure a masculine/feminine relationship. This might not even be right. I've already suggested that gay people may have 'half and half' qualities.

That's not the majority. That's a stereotype blown out of proportion.

@ mowglycdb : I guess all I can really ask is how do you see the proportions of archetypally masculine or feminine gay people? If you've known enough. Which way would you testify?

It doesn't matter if you have known enough, it doesn't matter if they're masculine of feminine, there are a hell lot of straight feminine guys.

Well it's a good thing that's not what I am saying then.

I am saying that since the MAJORITY of gay people appear to be effeminite, it ought to be harder to secure a masculine/feminine relationship. This might not even be right. I've already suggested that gay people may have 'half and half' qualities.

ofcourse they can have half and half qualities, or they can be mostly feminine or mostly masculine because they're as normal as straight people.

let it go already you're loosing your time, but you can learn what loosing your time means.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I have had the notion for a long time that there is something fundamental in human nature about uniting masculine and feminine aspects in relationships. I don't know for certain whether this is instinctive, but it's obviously culturally and in most cases socially prefferable for one partner to adopt a masculine role, and another a feminine role.

You're making a large assumption, attraction and relationships are too much more complex than that. By your logic it would not be possible for a normal man to be attracted to a dominant or tomboyish woman, that's obviously not true.

Your view of the situation is extremely black and white. Even if a balance between masculine and feminine is fundamental to healthy relationships, these qualities do not fall neatly along the lines you are trying to draw. Furthermore, whether someone is masculine or feminine has very little to do with their sexuality. There are effeminate men and masculine women who are heterosexual. There are masculine men, and feminine women who are homosexual. There are people who balance masculinity and femininity, and there are people who are attracted to many different types of people of both sexes.

Ultimately, your theory is baseless; because whether or not someone is masculine or feminine often times has nothing to do with who they are attracted to anyway. There are plenty of heterosexual couples who are both rather feminine or both masculine. There are couples that alternate roles depending on the context. The simplistic structure you are trying to apply to the question comes off as contrived and ignores the diverse nature of human relationships, and makes it sound like you are just trying to justify beliefs or feelings that you have that deep down don't seem rational.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I don't know much about gay 'culture'

Everyone is looking for something different, hetero- or homosexual.
Some hetero women look for big, strong men; others prefer more petite fellows.
Some hetero men look for big, chubby women ('chubby chasers', as they are commonly called); others prefer more petite ladies.

You are putting across that men look for lady-like women and women look for manly men. With sexuality blossoming like it is, this is no longer the case. There are so many different preferences, too many to count or put into a category of what's common or uncommon.

The same goes for homosexuals. In gay 'culture', you've got bears (big, hairy men), twinks (small, young men), queens (the typical effeminate, flamboyant men); butch (manly women), lipsticks (feminine women), chapsticks (average women (between manly and feminine - unisex)).
There are many more terms but I'm not the king of gay culture either.

On top of that, with gay couples someone will take on a masculine role (dominant) and the other a feminine role (submissive). People joke and ask, "So who wears the pants in your relationship?"
A bear could be looking for a twink or a queen, a butch could be looking for a chapstick, a twink could be looking for another twink. But all of the gay couples I have met and currently know, whether they are both twinks, or one is a queen and one is a bear, there is a dominant partner and a submissive partner. It just falls into place naturally, especially when sex comes into play.

What I'm trying to say is that not all gay men are feminine and thus cannot have a fulfilling masculine partner and not all gay women are masculine and thus cannot have a fulfilling feminine partner.

I have no idea if this was stated already or where the conversation has gone, but I read the OP and decided to throw in my two cents.

I'll buy that predetermined thing Not!!!I had a landlord that was married and had children, he bought a gay bar and TURNED GAY!!!!!

Originally Posted by snuzpilot

I'll buy that predetermined thing Not!!!I had a landlord that was married and had children, he bought a gay bar and TURNED GAY!!!!!

Correlation is not equal to causation. That is a post hoc fallacy, mate.

"homosexuals ought to have the foresight that it will probably be very hard to find a suitable partner."

- This sexual orientation and gender identity didn't exactly come with a manual and money-back guarantee when they manufactured us, or a warning that says "Partner sold separately."

"I have heard and can easily imagine that many gay men, who don't exactly have their feet on the ground, will squander a lot of their time in fleeting relationships or simply shagging a lot because they are unable to handle the emotional implications"

- I heard the same about straight men. I guess we should all be women then.

"however the people in question do so out of conformity or desperation, because they are confused."

- True that. And also because most people want a "masculine/feminine relationship," so in their attempt to conform to society's expectation, they become confused because their feelings oppose the confirmity. Also:

"Political correctness has gone so far through the roof that many people dismiss this obvious problem and make it out as if any man/man or woman/woman relationship can be just as fulfilling as any man/woman relationship. We don't live in a unisexual utopia; this is a lie."

- I think that applies to all relationships. We don't live in any kind of relationship utopia. Do you know anyone who has a "perfect" relationship that never experienced problems? Thought so. Straight or not, problems will come. A relationship can be as fulfilling as the two people involved want it to be.

" I wonder, what comes first for homosexuals? The physical attraction or the emotional attraction? "

It's the same question with guys. You know the stereotype about straight guys and straight girls in a relationship? Guys look for sex, and girls look for love. Fancy that.

Anyway, I like the honest ideas presented. I'll try to read the rest of the thread when I return (^_^)

This thread was a waste of time and energy, started by a mad man. You can ignore it.