Thread: Split Marijuana Discussion

Okay, so what have we established:

- marijuana kills you
- alcohol kills you
- fatty foods (with overeating) kills you

Great, so we can all agree marijuana is bad, legal or otherwise.

Originally Posted by Loaf

Okay, so what have we established:

- marijuana kills you

We have? Can you give me some statistics on that?

What I have established is the disgusting inconsistency in U.S. food and drug laws.

Smoking kills. You can say that there are other ways to use it, but thats the same as me saying I can drink alcohol in different ways to make it unharmful.

Please try to stay on-topic guys. If you want to continue, we can split the thread and you can take it to ED.

Originally Posted by Naiya

Please try to stay on-topic guys. If you want to continue, we can split the thread and you can take it to ED.

If you would split it and take it to ED, that would be great and I'm sure a lot of us would appreciate it. The last one of these in ED got locked because people started talking about ways to get stoned instead of whether pot should be legal. If that can be avoided, it should work well.

Will do. It'll be interesting trying to chop up this thread. Give me a few.

Thanks, Naiya.

Originally Posted by Loaf

Smoking kills. You can say that there are other ways to use it, but thats the same as me saying I can drink alcohol in different ways to make it unharmful.

The amount of marijuana it would take to kill somebody is way more than just about anybody smokes. A person can get stoned with 2 to 4 good puffs of marijuana, and a person stays stoned 1 to 3 hours from smoking it. Can you name some people who have died from that?

You can also put marijuana in cookies and brownies and eat them, as a lot of people do. That is not smoking. What are the ways of drinking alcohol that make it safer?

Statistics from a study from 2000:

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30

not only that universal mind, but even smoking that amount won't kill you, because you will pass out way before then.

Chomsky on some interesting background infos:

Originally Posted by Majestic

not only that universal mind, but even smoking that amount won't kill you, because you will pass out way before then.

I was talking about the amount of marijuana it would take over the course of somebody's life. There are no reports of anybody ever dying from marijuana even that way. The amount of marijuana it would take to kill somebody in one sitting is so outrageous that dying that way physically cannot be done. It never has and never will. What baffles me so much about people who argue for the illegality of marijuana is that they overlook the fact that it is not lethal. I know it has certain problems like causing some people to be lazy and hindering short term memory even during sobriety for a while in people who do it all the time, but it does not kill people. That is a very important piece of information in this debate.

Alcohol is an absolute monster when it comes to human death, though. When you question marijuana illegality advocates on the difference, they make the point that alcohol can be done in moderation. I don't understand the relevance of that. Sean Hannity says it all the time when talking about drugs in general. He says stuff like, "There is a difference between getting wacked out and drinking a beer." It completely overlooks the fact that people by the hundreds of millions drink a lot more than a beer. It also overlooks the fact that some people smoke just one hit of marijuana every few months. The idea that alcohol should be legal while marijuana should be illegal is not logical from any angle or crafty wording.

Originally Posted by Loaf

Smoking kills. You can say that there are other ways to use it, but thats the same as me saying I can drink alcohol in different ways to make it unharmful.

Indeed, smoking is bad for your health, but compare the amount that a marijuana user smokes to the amount that a tobacco user smokes. I know people who smoke something that amounts to more than 50 cigarettes a week. As far as I know, marijuana users typically smoke less than one joint a day, and they do it at home or at a friend's place.

Sure, somebody might smoke something next to you on the street and expose you to second hand smoke, but the reality is, that the exhaust that is constantly pumped out by the cars driving by you, is probably more dangerous to you than that second hand smoke is.

Additionally, my understanding is that marijuana smoke has less dangerous materials in it than typical tobacco smoke.


Around 4 years ago, I joined this forum and I also fought against all the people who wanted to legalize marijuana, because I thought it was dangerous, I thought it was addictive, but after educating myself a little, I realised that there's no truth to all that. I'm not a user myself, I've never tried it, but I really do not see any logical reason as to why marijuana is illegal, when alcohol is not. On top of that, as Universal Mind said, it's up to people them selves to make decisions about what they consume, aslong as what they consume isn't something that can easily kill them, like cocaine and heroin.

I forsee that marijuana will be legalized in most of Scandinavia by the end of this decade.

I'm adding to Chomsky's class-based argument for illegal cannabis.

Prohibition is extremely racist, moreso than it seems obvious. The New Jim Crow: How the War on Drugs Gave Birth to a Permanent American Undercaste gives us a better picture of exactly how racist the system is. I'm posting an editorial taken from NORML that summarizes it.

Spoiler for The New Jim Crow:--- NORML Comment:

I work this issue every day and am well aware of the racist nature of the War on (Certain American Citizens Using Non-Pharmaceutical, Non-Alcoholic, Tobacco-Free) Drugs. But even I wasn’t aware of the outrageous statistics comparing the Drug War to Jim Crow era. Michelle Alexander lays it all out in her new book, The New Jim Crow: How the War on Drugs Gave Birth to a Permanent American Undercaste:

There are more African Americans under correctional control today — in prison or jail, on probation or parole — than were enslaved in 1850, a decade before the Civil War began.
As of 2004, more African American men were disenfranchised (due to felon disenfranchisement laws) than in 1870, the year the Fifteenth Amendment was ratified, prohibiting laws that explicitly deny the right to vote on the basis of race.
A black child born today is less likely to be raised by both parents than a black child born during slavery. The recent disintegration of the African American family is due in large part to the mass imprisonment of black fathers.
If you take into account prisoners, a large majority of African American men in some urban areas have been labeled felons for life. (In the Chicago area, the figure is nearly 80%.) These men are part of a growing undercaste — not class, caste — permanently relegated, by law, to a second-class status. They can be denied the right to vote, automatically excluded from juries, and legally discriminated against in employment, housing, access to education, and public benefits, much as their grandparents and great-grandparents were during the Jim Crow era.
The uncomfortable truth, however, is that crime rates do not explain the sudden and dramatic mass incarceration of African Americans during the past 30 years. Crime rates have fluctuated over the last few decades — they are currently are at historical lows — but imprisonment rates have consistently soared. Quintupled, in fact. And the vast majority of that increase is due to the War on Drugs. Drug offenses alone account for about two-thirds of the increase in the federal inmate population, and more than half of the increase in the state prison population.

The drug war has been brutal — complete with SWAT teams, tanks, bazookas, grenade launchers, and sweeps of entire neighborhoods — but those who live in white communities have little clue to the devastation wrought. This war has been waged almost exclusively in poor communities of color, even though studies consistently show that people of all colors use and sell illegal drugs at remarkably similar rates. In fact, some studies indicate that white youth are significantly more likely to engage in illegal drug dealing than black youth. Any notion that drug use among African Americans is more severe or dangerous is belied by the data. White youth, for example, have about three times the number of drug-related visits to the emergency room as their African American counterparts.

That is not what you would guess, though, when entering our nation’s prisons and jails, overflowing as they are with black and brown drug offenders. In some states, African Americans comprise 80%-90% of all drug offenders sent to prison.

The only thing more shocking to me than the new Jim Crow of the drug war is how few African-Americans are involved in ending it.

The board of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML) is composed of 14 white men, 1 white woman, and 1 Latina (Full disclosure: this board is my employer)
Marijuana Policy Project (MPP) has no African-Americans or Latinos on their board as far as I’m aware (MPP does not publish this information on their website, as far as I can tell)
Drug Policy Alliance (DPA) boasts three African-American men on their board of directors
Americans for Safe Access (to medical marijuana, or ASA) has no African-Americans or Latinos on their board
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP) has one African-American on their board

Medical Marijuana march in Madison, Wisconsin (I know Madison, Seattle, and Albuquerque aren't exactly Atlanta, Detroit, and Chicago, but there has to be SOME black people there, right?)
This sort of racial homogeneity is also found at the grassroots activist level as well. I coordinate NORML’s 95 active state, local, and college chapters and off the top of my head I can think of only one chapter not run by a white person (Oregon NORML’s Madeline Martinez, who, coincidentally, is that sole Latina on the National NORML Board).

When I speak at conferences and festivals to crowds ranging from 50 to 50,000, it is always a nearly unbroken sea of white faces looking back at me. When I participate in the marches and protests against the drug war, I rarely see black or Latino people carrying a sign.


My view from the stage before speaking at last year's Seattle Hempfest, the largest marijuana reform rally in the world.
The War on Drugs is primarily a War on Marijuana, which makes up 49.8% of all drug war arrests, 89% of those arrests for simple possession. In New York City, a black man is nine times more likely to be busted for pot than a white man and three times more likely to get a custodial sentence out of that arrest. Yet when we look at the cannabis community, the only place we find many African-American faces is in rap videos extolling the virtues of “the chronic”.

Where is the Martin Luther King Jr. of the movement to end the War on Drugs? Why is he or she not responding to the efforts to end the single greatest cause of racial inequality in this nation?

Is he or she dissuaded by the culture of the black church, which demonizes drugs and drug use to the point where those who support sensible drug policies are shamed into silence?


Drug Policy Alliance's Int'l Reform Conference in Albuquerque, 2009
Is he or she turned away by looking at the leadership of drug law reform and seeing no faces like theirs?

Is he or she already feeling like they wear a target for law enforcement on their back already based on skin color and don’t feel like exacerbating that by publicly standing for drug law reform?

Whatever it is, this white man who’s used cannabis for twenty years and never once had an interaction with police is urgently calling out to my black and Latino brothers and sisters to get involved with your own liberation!

Basically, statistics show that today's drug prohibition imprisons more African Americans than the so-called "Jim Crow" era, when racism was institutionalized in law.

Prohibition has also been considered a war against youth for the fact that almost three quarters of drug arrests are for those under age 30.

Spoiler for Why Students Hold The Key To Ending Marijuana Prohibition:

The following speech was given by NORML’s Deputy Director before nearly 500 attendees on Saturday, March 13, at the opening plenary of Students for Sensible Drug Policy’s 11th International Conference, at the Fort Mason Center in San Francisco. To read full coverage of the conference, please see DRCNet’s report here.

My name is Paul Armentano and I’m the Deputy Director of NORML, the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws, and I’m the co-author of the book Marijuana Is Safer: So Why Are We Driving People to Drink? Max, Amber, Stacia and the many good folks at SSDP invited me to come here today to talk to you about how and why students have a vital role to play in ending marijuana prohibition.

First let’s talk about the “why”: self-preservation. The federal government has declared war on you.

Since 1965 law enforcement in this country have arrested over 20 million people for marijuana offenses. But when you take a closer look at who is actually arrested you find that, for the most part, it isn’t the folks sitting on this panel; it’s all of you sitting out there – it’s young people.

In short – the so-called ‘war’ on marijuana is really a war on youth.

According to a 2005 study commissioned by the NORML Foundation, 74 percent of the 800,000 or so Americans busted for pot each year are under age 30, and one out of four are age 18 or younger. That’s nearly half a million young people at risk of losing their school loans, or being saddled with a lifelong criminal record at a time when they are just entering the workforce. We’re talking about an entire generation – and that’s you out there – that has been alienated to believe that the police and their civic leaders are instruments of their oppression rather than their protection.

And the sad fact is: you’re right!

The question is: What are you going to do about it?

If we’re going to finally end this 70+ year failed public policy known as marijuana prohibition, then we need students to play a lead role. Obviously those of you in this room have already taken a critical first step in leading this charge by joining SSDP and attending this conference. But there’s a lot more to be done and there’s a lot more that you can do.

I believe that it was Ghandi who demanded that those who are oppressed be a part of there own liberation, and marijuana prohibition is no different. I want you to look around you because it’s you all who will ultimately bring about an end to prohibition.

And here’s how you start, and it’s really, really simple suggestion. Start talking to others about the need to end marijuana prohibition. Start talking about how this policy disproportionately and adversely impacts youth. Start discussing about how this policy limits young people’s opportunities at economic and academic success, and has repercussions that adversely affect people for the rest of their lives.

Start talking about how the war on weed endangers young people’s health and safety because it enables teens to have easier access to pot than to legal, age-restricted intoxicants like alcohol and tobacco. Talk about how prohibition forces young people to interact and befriend pushers of other illegal, more dangerous drugs. Talk about how prohibition compels young people dismiss the educational messages they receive pertaining to the potential health risks posed by the use of ‘hard drugs’ and prescription pharmaceuticals because they say: “If they lied to me about pot, why wouldn’t they be lying to me about everything else too.”

Most importantly, talk about how criminal prohibition is far more likely to result in having all of you sitting in this room struggling to get over a lifelong criminal conviction than it is in any way going to discourage you or your friends from trying pot.

And when I say ‘talk about it,’ that’s exactly what I mean – TALK. But talk to those who know you – your family, your friends, your parents, your neighbors, your professors, your faculty advisers. These are the people who you have built in credibility with. These are the people who are most likely to share and act upon your concerns because they care about you. They care about what you think, and they actually care about what happens to you.

(You know it’s funny, so often I hear activists talk about how they want to spread the word by going out on some street-corner and handing out leaflets to strangers. Or they want to engage in debates with some paid prohibitionist, as if by providing he or she with the facts about marijuana will somehow change his or her position. Or they want to post messages on some anti-drug website. Big deal. Talking to strangers is easy; it’s talking to people you know that’s hard. But it’s talking to people you know that is ultimately going to make a difference.)

So after you’re done talking about the evils of the drug war with your friends, family, and faculty – and encouraging them to begin engaging in this conversation as well – then it’s time to move the discussion to those who can shape public opinion and policy: the editors at your school paper, the leaders in your student government, your city council, your mayor, you state elected officials. Talk to these folks, and keep talking to these folks. And if they won’t listen to you then become one of them. Join the school paper; run for student government; run for city council. If not you, then who?

Here’s something else I want you to do to help bring about an end to marijuana prohibition. There’s something I want you all to say when you are engaging in your outreach efforts, and that is this: NOT IN MY NAME.

You know, when those who support marijuana prohibition are forced to defend it, they do so by saying that it’s all about you: it’s all about protecting and providing for the best interest of young people. You know, sort of like “we have to destroy the village in order to to save it.”

It’s time for all of you in this room to stop being the scapegoats for the abuses and the excesses of drug war. It’s time to say: enough! We don’t want your criminal policies; we never asked for your criminal policies; and we’re tired of having our good names be used to support your failed drug war. The war on marijuana isn’t saving us; it’s harming us, and we demand that it comes to end before it destroys another generations the same way it has destroyed ours.

Okay, so that’s the easy part – here’s the hard part. If students – and I’m talking about you guys here, and I’m also talking about all of your friends and colleagues who aren’t here – really are going to be the game-changers in this battle, this fight that all of us sitting up here have been waging for far too long already, then we need for you guys to take a pledge:

Don’t let your activism be a phase in your life; make it a part of your life.

When I graduated college in 1994 there was no SSDP; there was no ASA. There barely was an MPP. There was the DPA – with one office a handful of employees. There was no LEAP, no SAFER; no frankly there was no professional movement. Since then the landscape has changed monumentally.

Today, there are now dozens of organizations working on drug policy reform, and with that, dozens of job opportunities for you to get involved and stay involved in marijuana policy after you graduate college. So I give you a challenge: You really want to end the drug war? Consider making drug policy your career choice. You can start right now by applying for an internship at NORML or a fellowship at SSDP. Many of this movement’s current leaders started out this way, Kris Krane, Mason Tvert, Tom Angel, Stacia Cosner, Micah Daigle, and many others. They did it, and you can too.

Finally, even if you don’t wish to pursue marijuana law reform as a career, I encourage you to stay active in the movement. Between the Internet, podcasts, list-servs, social networking sites like Facebook, you now have access to unparalleled quantities of drug-law reform information in real time. Just this past week NORML launched its own Iphone app.

In other words, it is now easier than ever to stay plugged in to your networks and continue to educate yourself and your friends about drug policy reform. Check out NORML’s daily podcast, the Audio Stash, for the latest breaking news, or check out NORML’s capwiz page to instantly learn about upcoming state and federal votes in legislation that affects us all. And use what you learn to continue to move this conversation forward.

The bottom line: all of you in this room have the power to change these laws, and today you have an unprecedented opportunity to do so. So get out there and do it!

Originally Posted by Loaf

Okay, so what have we established:

- marijuana kills you
- alcohol kills you
- fatty foods (with overeating) kills you

Great, so we can all agree marijuana is bad, legal or otherwise.

Hate to get dragged into this but, uh...how exactly does marijuana kill you?