Thread: The Islamization of Europe?

I'm not sure what Xei thinks is a big city but in many areas of the UK Muslims immigration is a major problem, I'm against all immigration, but polish immigrants who've been here 3-6 months tend to integrate into society better than muslims who's family have been here 3 generations, and they speak english more often. I'd say less than 10% of muslims are integrated at all, only 2-3% are fully integrated, maybe less. out of 300+ muslims that i've come across, i'd say maybe 10 are good citizens. Most of them hang around in large gangs, never mix with the non muslims at all, it's like a voulentary apartheid in many places.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

lol, I did suspect that after your list of liberalisms, I suspect you're not muslim either, but please correct me if i'm wrong. I'm sure real suadi's (not those with only saudi passports) don't think like you.

This is exactly at the heart of the problem, the Wilders problem, not the islamization of Europe that is. The group of Muslims is being generalized. They all have different ideas and views, some eat halal food, others don't and certainly not every Muslim is a radical terrorist.

Most of them hang around in large gangs, never mix with the non muslims at all, it's like a voulentary apartheid in many places.

Something tells me you hang around with white people, and never mix with the Muslims at all.

The UK, being a trading nation, is inherently a country of immigrants. Have you any kind of idea what your family history is..? I'm as British as they come but I'm a second generation Irish catholic immigrant. You would almost certainly be excluded from living in this country if your own ideas were implemented.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Such as the right to eat bacon, marry non-Muslims, have gay sex, criticize Muhammad, and have a democracy. Those are just a few examples. Do you believe in those rights?

I believe in those rights. I think that people should have a freedom to chose. But I think that insulting Muhammad is wrong. I believe in a peaceful, non-racist community, and I don't tolerate ANY kind of racism, whether it is targeted towards Muslims or not. Live, and let live. Do you agree?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

lol, I did suspect that after your list of liberalisms, I suspect you're not muslim either, but please correct me if i'm wrong. I'm sure real suadi's (not those with only saudi passports) don't think like you.

I am a Muslim, who believes in fundamental rights and a peaceful and friendly community. I don't mind atheists and non-Muslims the slightest.
Oh and by the way, I meet up with a LOT of Saudis, Pakistanis, and people from other Muslim countries, and I can tell you that every decent person among them sees things the way I do. The same holds true for numerous non-Muslim buddies of mine. They are normal with us, and we are normal with them. There is no friction between us here, so why can't it be same for countries like America and Netherlands as well?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

I'm not sure if you aware of the phrase ""If a dog born in a stable, it doesn't make it a horse" but this general principle is ignored by liberals. Take this news story for example British-mother-and-children-kidnapped-in-Pakistan-for-eight-months-freed Now they clearly are not British, perhaps they hold British passports but by no means are they british.

I don't know about that. I seriously resent the fact that they were kidnapped. Especially when she had children. I can't imagine what they were thinking. But they case you linked to seems to be one where the woman was targeted for her money, not for the fact that she held a British nationality.

Well my town is majority white british so of course most of friends are white, but I have a few black/indian/chinese/european friends of course, I'm not a racist. Belive or not I even had a muslim friend once. He was one of the very very small minority of muslims who actually integrated with the rest of society.

You would almost certainly be excluded from living in this country if your own ideas were implemented.

What are "my own ideas" then?

Well as it happens I do know my family history back to around the 1820 ish and all my ancestors back to then are White British, and seeing as the number of ethnic minoirties back then was < 0.2% I'd assume my ancestoral gene pool is at least 99.8% White british, I even traced one line back as far as 1400 to the same county.

Nation of immigrants We've had a small trickle of immigration for a long time but nothing compared to Post World War 2 immigration.

Originally Posted by lucidmax15895

I believe in those rights. I think that people should have a freedom to chose. But I think that insulting Muhammad is wrong. I believe in a peaceful, non-racist community, and I don't tolerate ANY kind of racism, whether it is targeted towards Muslims or not. Live, and let live. Do you agree?

I believe in that, except I think satirizing or just mocking religion is often called for because it helps call religion and its power into question. I don't like the idea of being mean to people just because of their religious beliefs, but at the same time, I think religions themselves are very legitimately subject to scrutiny, even comical scrutiny.

For example, saying that Muhammad is gay is fine with me because it expresses noncompliance with demands for accepting the common Islamic beliefs that homosexuals are evil and Muhammad may not be criticized (for being a hypocrite in that case). On the other hand, I have a major problem with somebody saying to a Muslim, "Screw you, you damn Muslim! Get out of my city!" Prejudice-driven hate is a very bad thing, but intellectual challenge to a mere idea is not.

In the Religion forum, I posted a picture of the man who used to hold the world record for heaviest person who ever lived and said it was a picture of Muhammad. It was of course not something I actually meant, and it was not an attack on any person who pissed me off just by being a Muslim. It was an attack on the idea that people are not allowed to create images of Muhammad. I didn't even create an image of Muhammad. I just made fun of what I think is a very imposing notion and called it into question. That is not prejudice. It is mockery of an attacking philosophy.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

I'm not a racist.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Believe or not I even had a muslim friend once.

Do you realize how biased your statement sounds? I think you should try to mix up with Muslims more, you know. How do you expect to get to know good Muslims if you don't approach them? do you expect them to come pleading to you for friendship? lol......

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

It is mockery of an attacking philosophy.

Funny how you can say that so easily. I don't know how you can tolerate people who make fun of things others hold sacred. How very insulting. And you ask why Muslims get so enraged. Would you hold silent if someone thoroughly insulted and made fun of your parents? Or someone else for whom you have the utmost respect? No. In the same way, it is highly agonizing for Muslims to see their Prophet insulted in such a way. Please understand that.
I, on the other hand, am against ANY kind of mockery or destructive criticism against ANY one, not only Muslims. People have to learn to respect others' beliefs.

Why should I have to make a concious effort to mix with someone who isn't integrated into society at all. As I said I've mixed with people of every other background because they are mostly integrated into society. As I said there was this one muslim who was integrated and was basically "one of us" but this is extremly rare. Over time most immigrants become part of the community, but this never happens with muslims, they have their own community and never interact with non muslims.

Originally Posted by lucidmax15895

Funny how you can say that so easily. I don't know how you can tolerate people who make fun of things others hold sacred. How very insulting. And you ask why Muslims get so enraged. Would you hold silent if someone thoroughly insulted and made fun of your parents? Or someone else for whom you have the utmost respect? No. In the same way, it is highly agonizing for Muslims to see their Prophet insulted in such a way. Please understand that.
I, on the other hand, am against ANY kind of mockery or destructive criticism against ANY one, not only Muslims. People have to learn to respect others' beliefs.

Tough bananas. Anybody who is such a wuss about silly comedy needs to majorly lighten up. That attitude is part of what I make fun of because it is fucking stupid. I have a right to make fun of Muhammad, and as long as demands that my world be superdelicate with what I deem to be absurd and scientifically outdated beliefs are pervading and threatening world society, I am going to defy them and mock them. I will not be Islam's bitch. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Why should I have to make a concious effort to mix with someone who isn't integrated into society at all.

That's where you are wrong. I make every conscious effort to welcome non-Muslims into our community, and help them mix with us as much as possible. That way, I can get them to be friends with us, and I am glad that they are enjoying themselves too, not regretting they ever came to this country. Why can't you as well? Do you think you are above them?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

As I said there was this one muslim who was integrated and was basically "one of us" but this is extremly rare.

I don't know where you live and with what types of people you meet with, but let me tell you, it is NOT rare for muslims to integrate into foreign society. It's more like you guys don't want to integrate with them. Oh, and please don't tell me I am wrong. I have lived part of my life in Ireland, and traveled to many other non-Muslim countries as well. All I can say is that you are one of a kind.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Over time most immigrants become part of the community, but this never happens with muslims, they have their own community and never interact with non muslims.

Wrong. I see that you are the only one here who thinks so. What do you think, Muslims live in a secluded society or something? They can integrate just as well into the society as you can.

Racist bastards!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Tough bananas. Anybody who is such a wuss about silly comedy needs to majorly lighten up. That attitude is part of what I make fun of because it is fucking stupid. I have a right to make fun of Muhammad, and as long as demands that my world be superdelicate with what I deem to be absurd and scientifically outdated beliefs are pervading and threatening world society, I am going to defy them and mock them. I will not be Islam's bitch. Sorry.

hmmmmm..... I would have to say that I clearly disagree with you here. I regret that you have to think that way. Let me say one thing, how would you feel if someone openly insulted the person/thing you hold most sacred? I bet you would not be cool about it. You would have to be a hippy to do so.

well lucidmax, I think your posts illuistrate my point more than my own posts. Rather than muslims integrate into society, adopting European values and live a european way of life, you want us to cater and change our ways for you?!?

I see absolutly no reason at all why i should have to change for muslims, most immigrants adopt to the local culture over time, but you want us to adopt to your culture? If they don't like it they shouldn't come.

As with regards to the freedom of speech thing, while I general don't make mohammed jokes, I think its a shame that 20 years ago people could make them without fearing for their life. Again this is muslims trying to force authoritariansism upon a europe with european values such as freedom of speech.

I'm suprised they only got 24 seats really.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Rather than muslims integrate into society, adopting European values and live a european way of life, you want us to cater and change our ways for you?!?

Where did that come from? I am saying that I want BOTH parties to make equal efforts and integrate well.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

I see absolutly no reason at all why i should have to change for muslims, most immigrants adopt to the local culture over time, but you want us to adopt to your culture? If they don't like it they shouldn't come.

Hey, when did I say that?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

As with regards to the freedom of speech thing, while I general don't make mohammed jokes, I think its a shame that 20 years ago people could make them without fearing for their life. Again this is muslims trying to force authoritariansism upon a europe with european values such as freedom of speech.

There's a lot of difference between jokes and insults. Why can't those bastards make jokes about some other thing? A topic on which everyone can laugh? If humor really is their target, then why chose this theme if they know it is highly insulting? It's because you guys take pleasure in making fun of what they hold sacred. It's a petty excuse to justify your own racism and hatred towards all Muslims by saying it's just a "joke".

Why don't you reply to my question? Tell me, how would YOU guys feel in their position? Put yourself in their shoes and think.

Originally Posted by lucidmax15895

hmmmmm..... I would have to say that I clearly disagree with you here. I regret that you have to think that way. Let me say one thing, how would you feel if someone openly insulted the person/thing you hold most sacred? I bet you would not be cool about it. You would have to be a hippy to do so.

Why do you react like that? What is the big deal? If you don't think Muhammad has sex with armadillos, why would you get extremely emotional just because somebody says he does? You know they would not be serious. I can see where you would get offended if somebody gives you a serious look and says it as though he is angry with you personally because it would mean he is picking a confrontation with you. But just a silly joke about somebody who is not even alive any more? I don't get it.

I have no problem at all with Muslim individuals who seek peace, as you seem to. I don't have a personal problem with you. However, there are factions of your religion that seek to take over the world and impose their views on me and everybody else. I don't take kindly to that. Telling me I can't draw a picture of Muhammad is far beyond the boundaries of what I can respect. It is out of line, and I think it NEEDS to be made fun of. What if I told you that my religion says you can't wear yellow clothing and got pissed if you did? Wouldn't I be out of bounds? If masses of people started imposing that demand on the world, people would need to wear yellow clothing to tell them to screw themselves.

I don't have a religion, but the closest thing to it in my life is music from the golden age of classic rock. I am in major awe of much of it, and I think it sometimes gets into the religious center/mechanism of my brain and fills the void. My childhood nostalgia for it has something to do with that. My childhood is sacred to me, and so is the phenomenal art from that era. Some of the music at times puts me in another state of consciousness. I put it on an extremely high pedestal. At the top of that pedestal are the Beatles and Joni Mitchell. Now, if you told me that Joni Mitchell is a rat who lives in a mud hole, I would just laugh and ask you what you are talking about. Her music is torture to some people's ears although it is bliss to mine, and they rag me for listening to it. So what? That's what they think. I don't.

The reason criticizing Muhammad is considered such a big deal in Islam is that it detracts from the power of Islam. The root of the mentality is not about love. It is about power. You were obviously taught that making fun of Muhammad is an atrocity, and you seem to have had it drilled into your head very deeply. I think it is your responsibility to understand the silliness of the idea and not my responsibility to walk on egg shells because of something false that you were taught. I would not single you out and start making fun of Muhammad, though. You have not given me a reason to. However, I will do it to radical Islam because those assholes ask for it. If you happen to see or hear me doing it to them, it is on you to understand why you should not be angry.

Another kind of music I am in major awe of is disco, which had its big era in my childhood also. It is sacred to me too. With that in mind, I will show you something that I think is absolutely hilarious. This...



If radical disco ever tries to take over the world with rules you think are really weird, feel free to be a defiant smart ass.

I wouldn't move to a country that makes me extremly angry . . .

Who says I should make an effort? Why should I have to? You're saying I have to do something and you're giving no reason. With other groups of immigrants, I don't have to make an effort, becuase I would just naturally make friends with them like any other person.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

I wouldn't move to a country that makes me extremly angry . . .

Who says I should make an effort? Why should I have to? You're saying I have to do something and you're giving no reason. With other groups of immigrants, I don't have to make an effort, becuase I would just naturally make friends with them like any other person.

Forget it. I don't like arguing with people who are so short-sighted. I might make better use of the time, you know. :/

@ Universal Mind : Well, I see your point. I would disagree that "it has been etched into by brain", though, because it is something I am very consciously doing, not because of what I have been taught. I appreciate it that you are considering my views as well. But you know, not all people are like you. You make a joke, but the majority openly INSULT us, not as something humorous. It is outright discrimination and hatred towards Muslims. I am sure you are aware of the "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" atrocity that took place. While I don't mind jokes without any ill intent behind them that much, I do get furious upon those who do not make "jokes", rather, seek to create even more friction and anger between us.

You have not given me a reason to.

I think that a simple request from a humble person would be reason enough NOT to, at least not in front of him, don't you think?

Originally Posted by lucidmax15895

@ Universal Mind : Well, I see your point. I would disagree that "it has been etched into by brain", though, because it is something I am very consciously doing, not because of what I have been taught. I appreciate it that you are considering my views as well. But you know, not all people are like you. You make a joke, but the majority openly INSULT us, not as something humorous. It is outright discrimination and hatred towards Muslims. I am sure you are aware of the "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" atrocity that took place. While I don't mind jokes without any ill intent behind them that much, I do get furious upon those who do not make "jokes", rather, seek to create even more friction and anger between us.

Understand that most of those people are not trying to offend you or other good Muslims. They are being defiant against radical Islam, which my country is at war with. It's an extremely big deal here. The draw Muhammad stuff is a form of protest against something evil that wants to take us over. In most cases, it is not against Muslims in general.

Forget it. I don't like arguing with people who are so short-sighted. I might make better use of the time, you know. :/

Don't like arguing with people who disagree with you? :/ Maybe thats because you have no valid points really.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The draw Muhammad stuff is a form of protest against something evil that wants to take us over. In most cases, it is not against Muslims in general.

You also have to understand that drawing pictures of Muhammad insults the WHOLE of the Muslim community, whether be it intended or not. Because we all believe in that, and doing so is an outright insult to us.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Don't like arguing with people who disagree with you? :/ Maybe thats because you have no valid points really.

Yeah man, you're right, and I am wrong. I am a socially intractable person, and you are a secluded being. We got that. You wanna stick to your white-o buddies, you are welcome. I, on the other and, continue to welcome people into my community, regardless of race or religion. I will make the first move to befriend them, even if they don't wanna. I don't have that "I am superior coz I live here and they are immigrants" complex like you. I have no problem with making the first move, unlike you.

Yeah man, you're right, and I am wrong. I am a socially intractable person, and you are a secluded being. We got that. You wanna stick to your white-o buddies, you are welcome. I, on the other and, continue to welcome people into my community, regardless of race or religion. I will make the first move to befriend them, even if they don't wanna. I don't have that "I am superior coz I live here and they are immigrants" complex like you. I have no problem with making the first move, unlike you

What is a "white-o" If you just meant white, then am I not allowed to befriend white people in a mainly white nation ?!?! As i've already said I do have a few non-white (or non-white-o if you'd prefer) friends, maybe you should be making the effort to befriend people like geert wilders and his supporters, thought not. I'm not sure how your friend making process works, but I don't go down to the airport everyday waiting for immigrants to come through the gates and swarm all over them begging them to be my friend, maybe its some local tradition you got going on there. Muslims in the UK at least are so different and distant and loathing of the rest of scoiety it's virtually impossible to make friends with them, apart from the odd few who make up <3% of the population.

You also have to understand that drawing pictures of Muhammad insults the WHOLE of the Muslim community, whether be it intended or not. Because we all believe in that, and doing so is an outright insult to us.

Why is it that the blame always falls on the initiator of communication? It's as if the word "overreaction" no longer holds any meaning.

The action of expressing dissatisfaction towards extreme parts a certain belief system is not an insult itsef. It only becomes as much of an insult as the reciever of the message makes it.

So why is it that muslims just can't stop giving a fuck about what others say about their belief and just mind their own business? Well the answer is obvious. Because it's fucking religion, and it just has to force itself upon others. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

What is a "white-o" If you just meant white, then am I not allowed to befriend white people in a mainly white nation ?!?! As i've already said I do have a few non-white (or non-white-o if you'd prefer) friends, maybe you should be making the effort to befriend people like geert wilders and his supporters, thought not. I'm not sure how your friend making process works, but I don't go down to the airport everyday waiting for immigrants to come through the gates and swarm all over them begging them to be my friend, maybe its some local tradition you got going on there. Muslims in the UK at least are so different and distant and loathing of the rest of scoiety it's virtually impossible to make friends with them, apart from the odd few who make up <3% of the population.

Well, white-o is just an expression of humor. Don't be a grammar freak.
Anyways, I don't go up to the airport and swarm around the immigrants, but I do make every effort to befriend all immigrants around me.
About muslims in the UK, well, I go there regularly, and all of my friends don't have any problems with the integration there, and all of my non-muslim friends also don't have any problems making friends with muslims.
I think it's you who's the odd one out here.

Originally Posted by XeL

Why is it that the blame always falls on the initiator of communication? It's as if the word "overreaction" no longer holds any meaning.

The action of expressing dissatisfaction towards extreme parts a certain belief system is not an insult itsef. It only becomes as much of an insult as the reciever of the message makes it.

So why is it that muslims just can't stop giving a fuck about what others say about their belief and just mind their own business? Well the answer is obvious. Because it's fucking religion, and it just has to force itself upon others. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Well, I can kinda understand the "take it lightly" part, but why don't those cartoonists etc also, to quote you, "mind their own business"?

Oh well, let's get back on topic, shall we? I don't want a "Criticizing Muhammad is Good or Bad" argument to start. So back to topic!