Thread: Shakey hands

Ok... Just want to say that I have this issue too. There may be a genetic element to mine as my mom and most of her family have this same problem but I doubt that diet and lifestyle don't play an important role as well. While I'm not a smoker, I am a toker (see what I did there ) and at certain periods, quite a heavy one. Smoking will almost universally increase or even start handshaking so I have to ask, do you smoke dave? As far as dopamine being effected by your diet, there isn't a shadow of a doubt that thats true. Hell where do you think neurotransmitters come from?

Finally I see some serious attitude problems here by both the OP and some of his responders. I'm going to leave the admonations at that but I will say that an artery obstructed by cholestral WILL prevent your dopamine from working the same way a traffic jam will cause a broken marriage. Also, there is nothing wrong with taking a pill to solve a problem provided that you fully understand the cause.

My husband is a surgeon and he confessed that he, and many other doctors he know, take a beta-blocker before surgery to help steady their hands.

As an interesting aside- Minipress (Prazosin) is a beta-blocker that also helps one sleep peacefully if you tend to toss and turn a lot or have night terrors.

Originally Posted by tommo

haha! wow.... thanks for the laugh mate.

Diagnosed HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
You're good....

I never gave any credibility to the diagnosis, but Patrick did indeed state that he believes it's due to lower levels of dopamine. I'm glad you find humor in proper diction.

Originally Posted by dave1701

I'm all for less unnecessary use of meds. What I'm not for is the baseless and false chant that saturated fat is bad for you.

Right. Clogging your arteries with cholesterol is healthy. I forgot.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

My husband is a surgeon and he confessed that he, and many other doctors he know, take a beta-blocker before surgery to help steady their hands.

As an interesting aside- Minipress (Prazosin) is a beta-blocker that also helps one sleep peacefully if you tend to toss and turn a lot or have night terrors.

Thats interesting. I might ask my dad about that. Hes a dermatologist himself but he might know a few surgeons.

It is true that some surgeons take them, as well as musicians if they get nervous on stage.

re: arteries being blocked causing lower levels of dopamine....
no. just.... no.
There is absolutely zero evidence of that and it's just stupid to suggest it.
Assuming you have low levels of dopamine is equally retarded. There's no way you could
possibly know that.

Blocked blood vessels can obviously cause shakiness in itself, because due to lack of sufficient blood flow to extremities you are weaker.

And yes, saturated fat is bad for you.... there's been quite a few studies on it.

If arteries are blocked, it obviously doesn't reduce the levels of dopamine in your body. However since dopamine travels through the medium of your blood, any obstruction of that medium makes dopamine's job harder. Of course at that stage of blockage, I guess dopamine is the least of your worries...

Tommo, didn't you even read my post? I just suggested that lowered dopamine levels may be responsible due to lowered dopamine being involved in disorders where symptoms include tremors; parkinson's and RLS. That sorta makes sense, doesn't it? Not that I'm saying that's proof or anything, but my reasoning makes sense.

Thanks LikesToTrip for sticking up for me.

With regards sausage and bacon, a diet high in animal fat is a major risk factor for many neurodegenerative diseases, including the two biggest ones; Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. One of the main reasons I'm a vegetarian.

No, I didn't bother reading most of the posts.

Dopamine has nothing to do with essential tremor, based on the evidence.
In fact, it's mostly due to caffeine use, anti-depressants or low blood sugar and a couple of other things.
At least it is worsened by those things, I'm sure it would be unnoticeable without them, in most people.

Just because some illnesses have the same symptoms, does NOT mean they have the same cause.
Plus dopamine being involved in Parkinson's is not conclusive by any means.

Originally Posted by tommo

No, I didn't bother reading most of the posts.

Well then why the hell are you calling me out on something without listening to my arguments?

Originally Posted by tommo

Plus dopamine being involved in Parkinson's is not conclusive by any means.

And where on earth did you get this from??? One of my lecturers is a world leader in neurodegeneration research, and he (and millions of other scientists) can guarantee to you that selective dopaminergic neuronal loss is the main hallmark of Parkinson's disease. The main treatments for Parkinson's involve increasing dopamine levels. It is a stone cold FACT that the loss of dopaminergic activity in the substantia nigra is an enormous factor in Parkinson's disease!!!!!

It think it is rediculous to assume my hands are shakey because I eat too much bacon and according to some THEORY my cholesterol is higher (which it is not).

I am a healthy and seventeen years old, I think we can rule out clogged arteries. And bacon is NOT bad for you

A BIG FAT LIE? Here's Some History in "The Oiling of America" - (Long Read)

While I'm not a smoker, I am a toker (see what I did there ) and at certain periods, quite a heavy one. Smoking will almost universally increase or even start handshaking so I have to ask, do you smoke dave

While I'm a joker, I'm not a smoker or a toker. Like I said, this has been going on since at least my mid childhood, I remember noticing it in early middle school. I have pretty much assumed it is something I can't do much about. Because of the duration of it and the fact that I have had varying diets over the years, I do not think the problem has much to do with my diet.

For example, I can not hold a grain of rice strait up and down without dropping it.

The latest problem is that I have this class at school were we do a lot of trust falls and other types of things which involve touching and carrying people. It makes me look like I am not confident.

Typing this I have just noticed my hands are shakier than normal for some reason.

And to everyone- thanks for the replies and the help, and sorry for flying of the handle on some of the stuff that I didn't agree with.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

Well then why the hell are you calling me out on something without listening to my arguments?

I was just pointing out what I saw was wrong in a few posts. Your argument is invalid, I just pointed that out.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

And where on earth did you get this from??? One of my lecturers is a world leader in neurodegeneration research, and he (and millions of other scientists) can guarantee to you that selective dopaminergic neuronal loss is the main hallmark of Parkinson's disease. The main treatments for Parkinson's involve increasing dopamine levels. It is a stone cold FACT that the loss of dopaminergic activity in the substantia nigra is an enormous factor in Parkinson's disease!!!!!

They also treat schizophrenia with dopamine blocking drugs. Excess dopamine does not cause schizophrenia.
Researchers do not always have it right. Just look it up yourself, there's handy meta-analyses around which show it is inconclusive.
Yes that is the main treatment, but have you failed to realise that Parkinson's is incurable? Dopamine raising drugs have not helped.
The best treatment in fact is Cannabis, which doesn't affect dopamine levels.

Originally Posted by dave1701

It think it is rediculous to assume my hands are shakey because I eat too much bacon and according to some THEORY my cholesterol is higher (which it is not).

I am a healthy and seventeen years old, I think we can rule out clogged arteries. And bacon is NOT bad for you

I was going to say this too in on of my responses, but I wasn't sure how old you were. And you are correct, bacon is not bad for you, it's quite lean in fact.

Originally Posted by dave1701

And to everyone- thanks for the replies and the help, and sorry for flying of the handle on some of the stuff that I didn't agree with.

So.... what are you going to do about it?

I might try and do some mental exercises to try and become a more relaxed person. Like I said, I don't take any drugs, recreational or mess. I don't drink any caffeine, mostly water. I'll research these beta-blockers yall talk about and hope my doctor happens to give a hoot this year's physical.

Originally Posted by tommo

They also treat schizophrenia with dopamine blocking drugs. Excess dopamine does not cause schizophrenia.
Researchers do not always have it right. Just look it up yourself, there's handy meta-analyses around which show it is inconclusive.
Yes that is the main treatment, but have you failed to realise that Parkinson's is incurable? Dopamine raising drugs have not helped.
The best treatment in fact is Cannabis, which doesn't affect dopamine levels.

OK, yes they treat schizophrenia with dopamine targetting drugs, but that is entirely irrelevant. That just shows that scientists don't understand the mechanisms of schizophrenia well enough yet. With Parkinson's, scientists KNOW that dopaminergic neurons are selectively lost and this (whether or not it is the actual cause) leads to locomotor deficits. As for the possible causes of Parkinson's, the most popular theory is that an age-related vulnerability of the substantia nigra to oxidative stresses results in alpha-synuclein aggregates in dopaminergic neurons, leading to their death and then locomotor deficits. So until we can find a way to stop oxidative stress, or protect dopaminergic neurons, then trying to increase dopamine levels is one of the best treatments.

And cannabis is absolutely not as effective at treating Parkinson's as L-DOPA is. Which is why L-DOPA is almost always given to Parkinson's patients.

Parkinson's is not incurable. Every day scientists are getting closer to finding out the starting point in the Parkinson's cascade, and then a preventative treatment is almost certainly possible.

I mean people aren't cured of it today. Because low dopamine is not the cause.
And stop changing the argument.

Cannabis does work better than L-DOPA. There's more research on it all the time.

And the amount of people who take Parkinson's drugs and say they basically do nothing is staggering, then some of them find Cannabis and it has instant positive effects.
I know that second bit is just anecdotal, but you will see soon enough that it is correct.

Originally Posted by tommo

I mean people aren't cured of it today. Because low dopamine is not the cause.
And stop changing the argument.

Yes, as I made clear, low dopamine is not the cause of the disease but is the cause of the locomotor deficits, hence treating dopamine levels is just logical.

How am I changing the argument? I'm just defending the fact that dopaminergic loss is a very important aspect or Parkinson's disease, which you said it wasn't.

Cannabis does work better than L-DOPA. There's more research on it all the time.

In the interest of being open-minded, I accept that this is a possibility, but I would be interested to see some evidence of this if you have some. Any recent papers on the topic?

And the amount of people who take Parkinson's drugs and say they basically do nothing is staggering, then some of them find Cannabis and it has instant positive effects.
I know that second bit is just anecdotal, but you will see soon enough that it is correct.

Well at least you've admitted that this is anecdotal. A possible explanation for this is that once diagnosed, people with Parkinson's are usually put on weaker, less effective drugs at first. This is because L-DOPA, by far the most effective treatment, wears off after five years of regular use. Hence doctors want their patients to be on L-DOPA when it can help them the most; i.e. when their symptoms are at their worst. So it may be true that at first their symptoms are not alleviated by these weaker drugs. However that is not then an excuse to try a herbal remedy.

Again I will try to remain open minded, I suppose it might be possible that cannabis somehow alleviates the symptoms.

Originally Posted by tommo

Well you said in OP "Can I take a pill and be able to hold things steady?"
Just advising you that yes it is possible.
It is a pretty safe drug too.

What pill?

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

In the interest of being open-minded, I accept that this is a possibility, but I would be interested to see some evidence of this if you have some. Any recent papers on the topic?

CB1 cannabinoid receptor signalling in P... [Curr Opin Pharmacol. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

The endocannabinoid system as a target for the treatment of motor dysfunction

Can't find the actual study - Enhancing activity of marijuana-like chemicals in brain helps treat Parkinson's symptoms in mice, Stanford study finds - Office of Communications & Public Affairs - Stanford University School of Medicine

Last one's a little shakey, they used mice with a simulated Parkinson's disease.

Originally Posted by dave1701

What pill?

Did you not read my post?
What the hell.... you already replied to it before, now you reply again and ask something which is
included in what you're responding to for the second time.

Wow, this thread has been blown into a full on debate. Obviously being a toker, I desperatly wish that cannabis serves as effective treatment for parkinsons but that is the very reason why I am going to adopt a highly sceptic outlook on it. That being said, between shrinking cancer tumours, beating pain and being impossible to overdose on, cannabis is already the Chuck Norris of drugs. XD

Shit Dave, that link you shared certainly was a bit scary. Whether or not its contents are true, its pretty clear that the state of your diet isn't responsible for your problem. Have you ever tryed to will your hand to stop moving for an extended period of time? I find that I can do this but I have been experimenting with meditation on and off for a few years now so your milage may vary. I usually don't bother because my hands don't shake much since I started this experimentation. I'm not saying that it'll cure your problem but taking up sometging like yoga usually reduces involuntary muscular movement (I'm talking striped muscle obviously ) to varying degrees. One of the first things I noticed was actually being able to stop a hiccups by will! It sounds stupid now but it was quite exciting to discover that kind of power over your own body. Even if it doesn't stop the shaking, I think you should do a bit of meditation now and then because its range of benifits are so broad that you are bound to get your moneys worth even if your a inconsistant lazy bastard like me in its practice. I know I did.
Just don't try to do any gung-oh shit like "clearing your mind" (what a misnomer) especially in your noob phase.

Originally Posted by RationalMystic

Wow, this thread has been blown into a full on debate. Obviously being a toker, I desperatly wish that cannabis serves as effective treatment for parkinsons but that is the very reason why I am going to adopt a highly sceptic outlook on it. That being said, between shrinking cancer tumours, beating pain and being impossible to overdose on, cannabis is already the Chuck Norris of drugs. XD

Shit Dave, that link you shared certainly was a bit scary. Whether or not its contents are true, its pretty clear that the state of your diet isn't responsible for your problem. Have you ever tryed to will your hand to stop moving for an extended period of time? I find that I can do this but I have been experimenting with meditation on and off for a few years now so your milage may vary. I usually don't bother because my hands don't shake much since I started this experimentation. I'm not saying that it'll cure your problem but taking up sometging like yoga usually reduces involuntary muscular movement (I'm talking striped muscle obviously ) to varying degrees. One of the first things I noticed was actually being able to stop a hiccups by will! It sounds stupid now but it was quite exciting to discover that kind of power over your own body. Even if it doesn't stop the shaking, I think you should do a bit of meditation now and then because its range of benifits are so broad that you are bound to get your moneys worth even if your a inconsistant lazy bastard like me in its practice. I know I did.
Just don't try to do any gung-oh shit like "clearing your mind" (what a misnomer) especially in your noob phase.

I will definitely try the meditation. Do you have any links to any good guides that outline what to do?

See a Doctor. They'll want to do a battery of tests to make sure the shaking isn't anything serious. They might want to go with a diagnosis of anxiety and treat accordingly, but if you don't have any other symptoms or think that's really not it, suggest beta-blockers.
I'd be worried about using them if you have low blood pressure, but that's me :p

The most common blood pressure med I've heard of is Propranolol Propranolol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But there are many out there. As I stated before, I take Minipress (Prazosin 1mg) My blood pressure can run a little low. I have to take it while lying down in bed (before going to sleep) or I get extremely dizzy. And though I've never had any problems, I've been advised to get out of bed slowly (I jump out of bed of a morning lol with no dizziness).
But a doctor would fill you in on all the necessary details.

Originally Posted by tommo

CB1 cannabinoid receptor signalling in P... [Curr Opin Pharmacol. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

The endocannabinoid system as a target for the treatment of motor dysfunction

Can't find the actual study - Enhancing activity of marijuana-like chemicals in brain helps treat Parkinson's symptoms in mice, Stanford study finds - Office of Communications & Public Affairs - Stanford University School of Medicine

Last one's a little shakey, they used mice with a simulated Parkinson's disease.

Interesting, I'll have a read through those. Strangely our lecturer never mentioned cannabis as a treatment... He did say that smoking tobacco reduced your risks of contracting the disease in the first place though.

And don't worry about 'simulated' Parkinson's disease in mice; mice don't actually contract Parkinson's disease, so scientists have to create models which mimic the human pathology of the disease. It's not really a downside to papers using mice, it's just a necessary compromise.

I'll p.m the links to you Dave as I don't want to turn this thread more off-topic then it already is.

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

He did say that smoking tobacco reduced your risks of contracting the disease in the first place though.

I've read this too before. But I think they found that it's not actually reducing risk, it just delays the onset. I think it has more to do with the neuro-protective and nootropic effects of nicotine. But there hasn't been a lot of research on it.