Thread: real world vs. dream world

they are exactly the same as far as your brain is concerned...

Both are dreams

One is made up by your mind and one is a representation of something that is fixed and "true". Dreams are built off of no foundation and can leave as soon as they are imagined. The real world stays until you leave it.

Dreams are nice until you really realise there is nothing there. Maybe that doesnt make sense since you cant have a lucid dream without realising that you are dreaming and that there is nothing really there. I still cant figure out how I really feel about all of this dream stuff.

When I wake up after a really good dream, I sometimes find myself hating both the dream world and the real one. The reason for each is that they are not the other.

Originally Posted by ZmillA

Dreams are nice until you really realise there is nothing there.

But if there's nothing in the real world, the dream world can be nice all the time.

Originally Posted by qwerty

how do they compare....what are your thoughts, opinions etc.

There are differences but those differences are ignored by the dreaming mind until you become lucid. The activities or events that take place in the dream are very brief and are fluid. They happen now but not for very long and the next activity or event follows and the next and the next. Although the venue may be the same. It's very similar to watching a movie or TV show but only difference is your in it. Passive and yet taking part in the movie or TV show.

IMJ

Either it be the dream world or the real world, the brain doesn't really care. Its getting input, and processing either way. Your brain gets sensory input during the day when your conscious, and gets fed thoughts to process by your sub-conscious during the night. Or so thats the theory anyway. For all we know dreaming links us to another dimension via sub-conscious telepathy. Kinda like two fish tanks side by side.

A good way to approach this question, is to ask yourself: What validates reality? What is it that makes the real world real as opposed to fake? Is it the fact that you can use all 5 of your senses to experience the world?

In reality, the only difference between the Real World, and the Dream World, is your state of consciousness at the time. Both are equally as real to your mind and body. You can experience identical sensations for all 5 of your senses in both the Dream and Real world, aswell as experience any emotion your capable of experiencing in the "real world".

As far as many people would know, if you never woke up, then the Real World == Dream World. The only reason people consider the Real World more real, is because you spend more time in this one. If we spent an average of 16 hours Dreaming, only 8 hours awake, it may very well seem that the Real World is our Dreams, and that what we dream, is our Reality.

Whats more is, since know one really knows what happens after death, its difficult to say that this is the real world because once you die you don't dream anymore. We don't know that for sure, and so for all we know, once we "die", we go into an eternal dream much like what we experience now.

Originally Posted by Kreature

A good way to approach this question, is to ask yourself: What validates reality? What is it that makes the real world real as opposed to fake? Is it the fact that you can use all 5 of your senses to experience the world?

In reality, the only difference between the Real World, and the Dream World, is your state of consciousness at the time. Both are equally as real to your mind and body. You can experience identical sensations for all 5 of your senses in both the Dream and Real world, aswell as experience any emotion your capable of experiencing in the "real world".

As far as many people would know, if you never woke up, then the Real World == Dream World. The only reason people consider the Real World more real, is because you spend more time in this one. If we spent an average of 16 hours Dreaming, only 8 hours awake, it may very well seem that the Real World is our Dreams, and that what we dream, is our Reality.

Whats more is, since know one really knows what happens after death, its difficult to say that this is the real world because once you die you don't dream anymore. We don't know that for sure, and so for all we know, once we "die", we go into an eternal dream much like what we experience now.

Interesting view on reality. What reality is is what our reality is, since we are the ones perceiving it. If you can enter someone else's mind, whose to say that one person's reality is widely different from someone else's, which is much the same as a dream. My image of the color blue might be the color red for someone else.
The death part reminds me of Robert Bruce's theory about death, (or at least the one I read) where death is followed by life in the higher planes of existence ei: Astral, Mental, Buddhic ... etc..

Originally Posted by Kreature

A good way to approach this question, is to ask yourself: What validates reality? What is it that makes the real world real as opposed to fake? Is it the fact that you can use all 5 of your senses to experience the world?

In reality, the only difference between the Real World, and the Dream World, is your state of consciousness at the time. Both are equally as real to your mind and body. You can experience identical sensations for all 5 of your senses in both the Dream and Real world, aswell as experience any emotion your capable of experiencing in the "real world".

As far as many people would know, if you never woke up, then the Real World == Dream World. The only reason people consider the Real World more real, is because you spend more time in this one. If we spent an average of 16 hours Dreaming, only 8 hours awake, it may very well seem that the Real World is our Dreams, and that what we dream, is our Reality.

Whats more is, since know one really knows what happens after death, its difficult to say that this is the real world because once you die you don't dream anymore. We don't know that for sure, and so for all we know, once we "die", we go into an eternal dream much like what we experience now.

What if you kept practicing LD untill you could have time-dilation type lucids regularly?

Originally Posted by Kreature

A good way to approach this question, is to ask yourself: What validates reality? What is it that makes the real world real as opposed to fake? Is it the fact that you can use all 5 of your senses to experience the world?

In reality, the only difference between the Real World, and the Dream World, is your state of consciousness at the time. Both are equally as real to your mind and body. You can experience identical sensations for all 5 of your senses in both the Dream and Real world, aswell as experience any emotion your capable of experiencing in the "real world".

As far as many people would know, if you never woke up, then the Real World == Dream World. The only reason people consider the Real World more real, is because you spend more time in this one. If we spent an average of 16 hours Dreaming, only 8 hours awake, it may very well seem that the Real World is our Dreams, and that what we dream, is our Reality.

Whats more is, since know one really knows what happens after death, its difficult to say that this is the real world because once you die you don't dream anymore. We don't know that for sure, and so for all we know, once we "die", we go into an eternal dream much like what we experience now.

thats really deep dude. i really see what your saying.

Just to reply to the title, the real world definately wins.

Originally Posted by Kreature

A good way to approach this question, is to ask yourself: What validates reality? What is it that makes the real world real as opposed to fake? Is it the fact that you can use all 5 of your senses to experience the world?

In reality, the only difference between the Real World, and the Dream World, is your state of consciousness at the time. Both are equally as real to your mind and body. You can experience identical sensations for all 5 of your senses in both the Dream and Real world, aswell as experience any emotion your capable of experiencing in the "real world".

As far as many people would know, if you never woke up, then the Real World == Dream World. The only reason people consider the Real World more real, is because you spend more time in this one. If we spent an average of 16 hours Dreaming, only 8 hours awake, it may very well seem that the Real World is our Dreams, and that what we dream, is our Reality.

Whats more is, since know one really knows what happens after death, its difficult to say that this is the real world because once you die you don't dream anymore. We don't know that for sure, and so for all we know, once we "die", we go into an eternal dream much like what we experience now.

Both are not equally as real to your mind and body, mind possibly -- but body? no. what separates dreaming from reality is that reality is real, if I am shot in the stomach in the real world I cannot use my mind to heal the wound. the body/our shell suffers in the real world.

Both are equal for the mind, just that the real one has more limitations and is more bond to rules.

Originally Posted by theyearthreethousand

Both are not equally as real to your mind and body, mind possibly -- but body? no. what separates dreaming from reality is that reality is real, if I am shot in the stomach in the real world I cannot use my mind to heal the wound. the body/our shell suffers in the real world.

Actually thats not true. Its been proven that there is a link between our bodies and what happens in our dreams. And who's to say that what happens in the "Real World", isn't just a limited experience of what happens in our dreams. For all we know, our Dreams are really how our existence is suppose to be, but our "Reality" poses limitations on the mind to challenge it and give it new experiences.

Like I said, in our Dreams, we can experience anything and everything with all 5 of our senses. We have alot of control over most anything.

In the Real World, we have limited control, but still can experience everything.

The Body does suffer in the Real World, but, it also heals and is capable of becoming like new. In the Dream World, we are merely capable of healing ourselves at a far more quick rate.

So really, there isn't a difference between the 2 worlds. Its just that what you experience in each is slightly different. Its difficult to say for sure that one or the other is the true world. Its just that our current "Reality" is the dominant one because we spend more existence in it.

In fact, further research is being done into the possibilities of "Dream Sharing" being true, and if it were to pan out that its real, that even further creates the possibility that the Dream World exists as a separate Reality, but no less real than the current one.

Originally Posted by PawneeWarrior

What if you kept practicing LD untill you could have time-dilation type lucids regularly?

I think practise for this type of LD is monumental and difficult. Having normal LDs is hard enough not to mention control.

IMJ

Originally Posted by Kreature

In reality, the only difference between the Real World, and the Dream World, is your state of consciousness at the time. Both are equally as real to your mind and body.

So for you realness of external objects doesn't matter, you define them by what YOU decided to think of their realness instead?

The only reason people consider the Real World more real, is because you spend more time in this one.

As I said, you seem to think that everything is equally real for the reason that YOU choose to think about it as real... be it reality, dreams, hallucinations. That's not a very healthy approach, at least not to be used when talking to a psychiatrist

If we spent an average of 16 hours Dreaming, only 8 hours awake, it may very well seem that the Real World is our Dreams, and that what we dream, is our Reality.

What about important differences:
- inability of dream characters to act as real entities, having their own feelings and thoughts;
- inability of the dream world to be stable (you know how it goes... you make a turn and a tree you were just looking at turns into something else);
- inability of dream objects to look exactly as their prototypes (a famous hand RC caused by your hands looking not like real hands);
- laws of physics don't always correspond to the real world laws of physics;
- rational abilities a lot inferior to rational abilities that you've got in real world (responsible for ridiculousness of dreams, their plot, your thoughts and actions);
- memory working extremely bad compared to your memory in the real world;
- physical damage not possible in dreams;

We don't know that for sure, and so for all we know, once we "die", we go into an eternal dream much like what we experience now.

You're an optimist! For all that is known to science now, dreams are caused by bodily\brain activity, and once the body dies, there can be no dreams anymore.

Originally Posted by Kreature

Actually thats not true. Its been proven that there is a link between our bodies and what happens in our dreams.

Please continue your thought and prove that contrary to theyearthreethousand's claim that you can't die when shot in a dream, you die when you're shot in a dream.

The Body does suffer in the Real World, but, it also heals and is capable of becoming like new. In the Dream World, we are merely capable of healing ourselves at a far more quick rate.

You seem to want to ignore the fact that what you can heal in dreams is not your body. It was lying on the bed intact all the time...

lol you can force the dreams to be bond to law physics if you want, and there is some people that actually get hurt via dreams because of the strong belief of them being the same. Everything else is correct.

Originally Posted by Walms

lol you can force the dreams to be bond to law physics if you want, and there is some people that actually get hurt via dreams because of the strong belief of them being the same.

It's easy to imagine things that you want to be true...
Would you please care to point me to known cases of getting physically hurt in dreams?

Both worlds are real, and it's interesting to have the opportunity to explore two separate worlds every day. It's like leading a double life. Think of how much fun you would miss out on if dreams didn't exist. This forum wouldn't exist. I like both worlds, and hope that my time in them is well-spent.

Originally Posted by IWantToChange

Please continue your thought and prove that contrary to theyearthreethousand's claim that you can't die when shot in a dream, you die when you're shot in a dream.


You seem to want to ignore the fact that what you can heal in dreams is not your body. It was lying on the bed intact all the time...

The problem your arguing, and everyone else is arguing, is that your using current real life limitations to argue Dream World aspects. Your applying what is known to the Real World, to explain why the Dream World isn't a real place.

If we switch that around, and apply Dream World Logic as a Universal Concept, then when we look at the "real world", and see that it doesn't coincide with our Dream Logic, then one might assume that the "Real World" is simply a hallucination because it doesn't agree with what we perceive as a real world.

So for you realness of external objects doesn't matter, you define them by what YOU decided to think of their realness instead?

"Realness of external objects" is subject to each experience. There are many people who swear they see, hear, and infact interact with objects that aren't there, and perceive objects different than they really are. Because of this, what one person may consider real, another may not.

If you take 2 people, and place them in the same room and ask them what they see, and Person A says they See a Chair, and Person B says they see a Couch, who is right? Both perceive the object they are seeing as being real.

You might say that "Because more people see a chair than a couch, that it means the chair is there.", but then we can look at other things where the masses believe one thing, but others another. Religion is one such thing. Who's to say whats "real" and whats "false" when it comes to religion? Its based on how an individual perceives their own reality.

What about important differences:
- inability of dream characters to act as real entities, having their own feelings and thoughts;
- inability of the dream world to be stable (you know how it goes... you make a turn and a tree you were just looking at turns into something else);
- inability of dream objects to look exactly as their prototypes (a famous hand RC caused by your hands looking not like real hands);
- laws of physics don't always correspond to the real world laws of physics;
- rational abilities a lot inferior to rational abilities that you've got in real world (responsible for ridiculousness of dreams, their plot, your thoughts and actions);
- memory working extremely bad compared to your memory in the real world;
- physical damage not possible in dreams;

Again, each of these differences are subject to each individual. One person might see all of these differences, while another may not notice or perceive any of those differences. If we apply this to how people sometimes are in Real Life situations, its not any different. Like I said, many people swear they see things that aren't there, or perceive something different than it really is.

The other thing your doing, that makes it seem different, is your applying Real World Logic to Dream Situations.

For all we know, our "Dream Situations" where everything changes and is unstable, is exactly how the world should be. Ever notice in your dreams when your not Lucid, that most people will accept all of these differences without question? It is only once we become Lucid, that we start applying Real World Logic to our Dream World and call them "different", and start to believe that our Dreams our wrong.

If we use reverse logic, and do the same thing with the "Real World", then one can say that the Real World isn't playing by the Real Rules. If what is normal in our dreams happens to be the true existence, then the fact that it doesn't happen in the "real world" means something is wrong.

As I said, you seem to think that everything is equally real for the reason that YOU choose to think about it as real... be it reality, dreams, hallucinations. That's not a very healthy approach, at least not to be used when talking to a psychiatrist

Ok, so I go back to my first question:

What defines "Real"? Is it something you can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell.. something you can experience with all 5 senses? In your mind, how do YOU define real? Or, is reality defined by what a Majority believes? Is something real because everyone believes it to be real?

As I said, what is actually real, and what is perceived to be real, are unique to each individual.

Originally Posted by qwerty

how do they compare....what are your thoughts, opinions etc.

you can't really compare them. people walk around in waking life as if it's a dream, and when they dream they accept it as reality.
your dreams feed off of what you've experienced while awake, so it's a reality of it's own.

Originally Posted by Kreature

Your applying what is known to the Real World, to explain why the Dream World isn't a real place.

And you use a trick: you change the definition of "real" and claim that the dream world is real in that sense.

"Realness of external objects" is subject to each experience.

If you get shot, it's subjective and its realness can be defied, so that nothing happens?
As you see, your statement that realness of external objects is subjective is wrong. Therefore changing the meaning of the word "real" the way you do is not correct, too.

If we switch that around, and apply Dream World Logic as a Universal Concept, then when we look at the "real world", and see that it doesn't coincide with our Dream Logic, then one might assume that the "Real World" is simply a hallucination because it doesn't agree with what we perceive as a real world.

It's a nice philosophical idea, but you cannot claim that it's true, for reasons mentioned above.

There are many people who swear they see, hear, and infact interact with objects that aren't there, and perceive objects different than they really are. Because of this, what one person may consider real, another may not.

There's a reason why people who see hallucinations try to be cured: they see things that don't exist. Considering external things (like voices) real is delusion in that case, and unrealness of them may be easily proven by other people who cannot hear what they hear. Also there hasn't been a single known case of a mentally ill person proving that what he externally sees or hears is real (e.g. by providing him truthful info that he couldn't have learnt otherwise).

If you take 2 people, and place them in the same room and ask them what they see, and Person A says they See a Chair, and Person B says they see a Couch, who is right? Both perceive the object they are seeing as being real.

There's a difference between naming things slightly differently on the whim and seeing different things. If one saw a chair and another didn't, then was that chair real? In your example people see the same real things and are arguing how to call them. I think such an example doesn't fit our discussion very well.

we can look at other things where the masses believe one thing, but others another. Religion is one such thing. Who's to say whats "real" and whats "false" when it comes to religion? Its based on how an individual perceives their own reality.

We can't reliably check if god exists in religion or what his commandments were. We can't check if your government lies to you, because you have no access to true information. Again, I think that such examples are connected to lack of information and don't fit our discussion well.

Ever notice in your dreams when your not Lucid, that most people will accept all of these differences without question?

As I said, what you do is change the meaning of the world "real" to fit what you want, without caring if it's correct or not.

In your mind, how do YOU define real? Or, is reality defined by what a Majority believes? Is something real because everyone believes it to be real?

All you have to do to find out is try to stop a riding train with the force of your will to learn that the train is real and thus independent from your evaluation of its realness.

As I said, what is actually real, and what is perceived to be real, are unique to each individual.

Maybe you can prove it by shooting yourself into the head while perceiving the gun as unreal for you, and demonstrating that your head is intact after that.