Thread: Our life just a dream?

Originally Posted by Unelias

In dreams we know. What if life is just more complicated and more realistic dream where you will bleed.

Life isn't only "more complicated and realistic"...

Life is visually stable, with linear time, with uncontrollable "characters" who have integrity and unchanging past, with physical laws that can't be broken by you by will, without an ability to interrupt it forever by any other means than death, etc.

Dreams don't have all that. If you want to say that life is a dream, then I'm not sure what similar features you have in mind... Life is visually unstable? With non-linear time?

Have you died? what if you wake up when you do?

Even if I find myself somewhere else after death, it won't prove that this world is a dream Unless the place of awakening happens to be a more real "reality" in comparison to which this reality is as lame as a dream.

Originally Posted by Arutad

Life isn't only "more complicated and realistic"...

Life is visually stable, with linear time, with uncontrollable "characters" who have integrity and unchanging past, with physical laws that can't be broken by you by will, without an ability to interrupt it forever by any other means than death, etc.

But if we think that life is a dream where dream control is insanely hard? This life has only those regulations because you think they are true and you don't have strenght to break them because you are still dreaming but as I said, this could be a dream that is completely different from concept of dream we know but I gotta admit, there are places and situations where I am forced to do reality check. Just because life seems so unreal sometimes.

Originally Posted by Arutad

Dreams don't have all that. If you want to say that life is a dream, then I'm not sure what similar features you have in mind... Life is visually unstable? With non-linear time?

Dreams what dream in this life consist those features you mentioned but my dreams are quite realistic for of all five senses. I mean, waking world realistic.

Originally Posted by Arutad

Even if I find myself somewhere else after death, it won't prove that this world is a dream Unless the place of awakening happens to be a more real "reality" in comparison to which this reality is as lame as a dream.

That is true. But what if after you die, you wake up on stone bed in some cave spooky..... We are just tossing with the idea after all but honestly, there is no way to tell if we aren't dreaming, because this "dream" could have rules we are not aware. ^^

Originally Posted by Unelias

But if we think that life is a dream where dream control is insanely hard? This life has only those regulations because you think they are true and you don't have strenght to break them because you are still dreaming

That must mean that other people don't exist If it's all in your mind only...
That poses a problem... people would start to argue. Hey, it's all in my mind, how dare you think that it's all in yours?! It's you who's unreal, not me!

There is such a thing as mental illness, too. Those people can break any laws of reality, and yet others think that what's going on in their mind is not influencing reality. We can see that what they say isn't happening, even if they can vividly see (if they hallucinate) the opposite. How comes reality isn't influenced if they see it happening?

but I gotta admit, there are places and situations where I am forced to do reality check. Just because life seems so unreal sometimes.

*shocked* I hope you're saying it to write beautifully

but honestly, there is no way to tell if we aren't dreaming, because this "dream" could have rules we are not aware. ^^

If this "dream" might be a totally different concept of a dream as we know it, as you said, then it makes not much sense to call it a dream. Why do you call it a dream, only because we could 'wake up'? The latter seems a very far-fetched idea for me to be honest, like a last straw that the drowning men are grasping in hope that they won't die. At least I can see no normal reasons to think so, it's purely wishful thinking, even thinking that life's laws can be bent makes more sense

P.S. What is it, as your avatar?

Well, if this life was a dream, what would stop it from being a dream within a dream within a dream, ad infinitum? Just a thought.

I agree with Unelias that there are some circumstances which seem to defy logic and reason and/or deviate from the world we are accustomed to seeing. On the other hand, does it mean something supernatural has happened? Not necessarily.

To be honest, I find the notion of life being a dream rather depressing. Logically, if that were the case, I would be the point of consciousness, thus making it my dream, thus denying the reality of those around me. When I woke up, they would be gone. In addition, if this world was just a dream, what would stop me (or the dreamer) from doing whatever I (or the/she/it) wanted without thought for anyone or anything else? Enough people think themselves to be a god and destroy parts of the world. I suppose it just matters to which standards one holds him/herself, but still...

Anyway, those are just the thoughts of a non-philosopher.

Originally Posted by Arutad

That must mean that other people don't exist If it's all in your mind only...
That poses a problem... people would start to argue. Hey, it's all in my mind, how dare you think that it's all in yours?! It's you who's unreal, not me!

Indeed. I dislike arguing in the first place anyway ^^ I am more in conversations I love to hear people thoughts and compare them to my own. There is always room to broaden your knowledge through that.

Originally Posted by Arutad

There is such a thing as mental illness, too. Those people can break any laws of reality, and yet others think that what's going on in their mind is not influencing reality. We can see that what they say isn't happening, even if they can vividly see (if they hallucinate) the opposite. How comes reality isn't influenced if they see it happening?

I have thought that regularly. Are you familiar with the (mostly pagan) concept of world existance. At least in some shamanistic and druidic ideas world is constantly shaped through our minds and shaman or similar person has a way to manipulate world in order to i.e heal a sick or like.
Now if it was so, it would take lots of willpower and faith to actually shape the world with your mind, or at least that what I would assume. Also if I knew I had some kind of mental illness, I probably wouldn't have the "true faith" that I can shape the world. Just tossing with the ideas again if one hallucinational sees pen floating and four other see it on the table, they have more collective "willpower" to keep pen from floating. Therefore, the actual world leaves the pen grounded. If we think world acts in that way.

Originally Posted by Arutad

*shocked* I hope you're saying it to write beautifully

Actually I have had lots of that kind of moments feel free to be shocked if you want to I have seen a lot and there are things that fit into category of w-w-w-weird

Originally Posted by Arutad

If this "dream" might be a totally different concept of a dream as we know it, as you said, then it makes not much sense to call it a dream. Why do you call it a dream, only because we could 'wake up'? The latter seems a very far-fetched idea for me to be honest, like a last straw that the drowning men are grasping in hope that they won't die. At least I can see no normal reasons to think so, it's purely wishful thinking, even thinking that life's laws can be bent makes more sense

You are right on that, but we are humans and we operate with language. We need some word that awakens feelings and images. Since we are all here dreamers and the topic was if life was a dream, I try to reason it so that it fits somehow into that word. But of course we could invent totally new word I don't find it that different though, at least in my mind.

Originally Posted by Arutad

P.S. What is it, as your avatar?

Oh that one it is a symbol of fictional goddess Sehanine Moonbow who his goddess of dreams, moon,mysticism, transcendence, spirituality, divination and journeys. I chose it because I find it beautiful although it is very simple. Also, because the things she is seen to symbolize are very dear to me. Moon is often seen as symbol for night and dreams. Dreams are very important in shamanistic cultures, which also have very ancient tradition here in the far north. I have embraced bits of my lands shamanistic heritage too and I find it very fascinating, as it centers to personal development instead of becoming involved with religion, religious groups, people who misuse religion, fanatics, grand deities etc.

But in order to make things perfectly clear, I have nothing against different believes if they don't harm others. Faith is after all personal thing and in my opinion should be kept that way. I love to exchange thoughts tho' if someone is interested, but only then.

Originally Posted by Unelias

Indeed. I dislike arguing in the first place anyway ^^ I am more in conversations

That's what we're doing, having a conversation!

if one hallucinational sees pen floating and four other see it on the table, they have more collective "willpower" to keep pen from floating. Therefore, the actual world leaves the pen grounded. If we think world acts in that way.

That can be an explanation, yes. Although what is a hallucination then, if it's seen? Sounds like a distorted perception to me, rather than a struggle between a floating and grounded pen.

There are two types of hallucinations, one is conveniently called "pseudo-hallucinations", because it's not a distortion of something but seeing something that doesn't look vivid enough that it can be confused with reality. I guess this one could be said to be summoned with willpower But what about those real hallucinations, like when you can vividly see that the road is a river or something equally unusual...

Hm, also let's say that a small kid sits alone in a room, and sees a toy. A small kid wouldn't know much about the world, so it could make the toy float if it wanted, or something else equally bizarre, but it isn't happening, although there's nobody else in the room to counter the kid's efforts.

Although I guess this example can be made senseless if you say that collective willpower is not situational, but somehow permeates the whole world...

Actually I have had lots of that kind of moments feel free to be shocked if you want to I have seen a lot and there are things that fit into category of w-w-w-weird

Can you tell me? I'm interested

You are right on that, but we are humans and we operate with language. We need some word that awakens feelings and images. Since we are all here dreamers and the topic was if life was a dream, I try to reason it so that it fits somehow into that word.

I understand, but I think that usage of the word introduces the distortion of meaning in this case. At least if we agreed that it's a loose term. There are many associations that the word "dream" brings up almost unconsciously

I love to exchange thoughts tho' if someone is interested, but only then.

Can you tell me about that shamanistic tradition that you partially embraced? I'd be grateful, I like that kind of things, and I'm not going to go saying "eww, that's stupid" and such

Originally Posted by Arutad

There are two types of hallucinations, one is conveniently called "pseudo-hallucinations", because it's not a distortion of something but seeing something that doesn't look vivid enough that it can be confused with reality. I guess this one could be said to be summoned with willpower But what about those real hallucinations, like when you can vividly see that the road is a river or something equally unusual...

Hmm interesting thought. So if we think we shape the world with our thoughts, doesn't it mean that world is made of something else that we currently think it is made of? Or that we can just manipulate atoms with our brains? Because if it's so, I wouldn't find impossible that your brain could overfire every once in a while, leading to hallucinations. Also, I tend to think that our sub-conc is does a lot things on its own. So if your sub-conc is working on its own and creating hallucinations inside your head that are not strong enough to affect the real world since it is only your sub-conc. Then some doctor comes to say at you that you are delusional, which leads to never-ending hallucinations

Originally Posted by Arutad

Hm, also let's say that a small kid sits alone in a room, and sees a toy. A small kid wouldn't know much about the world, so it could make the toy float if it wanted, or something else equally bizarre, but it isn't happening, although there's nobody else in the room to counter the kid's efforts.

Although I guess this example can be made senseless if you say that collective willpower is not situational, but somehow permeates the whole world...

I have also pondered a lot about little childrens way of perceiving world. They basically know nothing about it unless they are told to and after they experiment on their own. But are you now suggesting that the kid sees it in his eyes floating or just tries it and nothing happens? Because children have very pure state of mind and if world worked like we have speculated here, I think there is a high chance that a kid could do that. For us, who have accepted how this world is seen and told to work it would be almost impossible.

For the collective willpower, I think it would radiate to whole world BUT it would be a lot stronger if the persons were close to the thing they wish to change and each others. Hence, this would explain why in ancient times rituals were performed usually in gatherings etc. in those communities that believed world to work like this. But I think it is fairly common among those people that shaping a world is difficult feat, so there are special persons ( shaman, druid, priest, mystic, witchdoctor etc) to perform it, who have been revealed secrets by gods or spirits and have trained in ways that normal people were not

Originally Posted by Arutad

Can you tell me? I'm interested

Oh there are lots of. I am going to be very generic here but if you really want to know, you can PM me . I have had feelings that resembel those of NDE and OBEs. I have almost died couple of times and been many times in life - death situations. I have seen places and things that seem to be very magical and mystical alike and felt things that are hard to explain with everyday feelings also I don't to believe that there is a pre-made destiny for us, yet I like to use the world fate in a different sense. And there are indeed situations that made me label it as "fate".

Originally Posted by Arutad

I understand, but I think that usage of the word introduces the distortion of meaning in this case. At least if we agreed that it's a loose term. There are many associations that the word "dream" brings up almost unconsciously

Of course this is kind of our limitation since we need words to define abstact things. I must admit, I wouldn't either use the word dream, instead I would define that life's nature is very dreamlike at least.

Originally Posted by Arutad

Can you tell me about that shamanistic tradition that you partially embraced? I'd be grateful, I like that kind of things, and I'm not going to go saying "eww, that's stupid" and such

Of course if you are interested. Again if you wish to ask something else after this feel free to PM. No need to feed this thread with our ramble ^^

First of all, I don't personally consider shamanism religion. There are no gods to worship, although some gods are known. It is more based on respect towards spirits, nature and those few gods, not worship. This is why I treat people with personal faith with respect, but what I dislike is arranged religion.

Dreams ( surprise) are very crucial to me since shamans are often seen as journeymen between the planes of existance via dreamstate or trancestate. I see dreams as very good way to do introspection and deep search my inner feelings and desires. As I have said in some other posts too, I had lucid dreams and a "dreamguide" before I knew about LDs. Back then I merely categoriazed them to my shamanism. I am also intrested of OBEs alike, since I don't have habit of forcefully denying something at the straight hand. Also OBEs and astral projection would explain lot of shamanistic kind of abilities. I have had feelings that some might categoriaze as these two, but I am constantly studying and experimenting with everything.

Other parts of northern shamanism that I practice and know are for example entering a trance via singing, dancing or drumming, respect towards nature and being a part of it. ( Here in Finland very high amount people is quite closely connected to the nature by default), spellsinging or poemsinging.Soul linking and remote seeing are also things that have occurred to me. Pity that I have no clear evidence that what I see really happened. . Either way, I cannot control it by will, at least not yet. Also, knowing the lore of the land, nature and spirits is tightly associate with shamanism. There are also lots of other, smaller things that fit either into these large categories I described or are just bits and pieces.

Originally Posted by Unelias

Hmm interesting thought. So if we think we shape the world with our thoughts, doesn't it mean that world is made of something else that we currently think it is made of? Or that we can just manipulate atoms with our brains?

Well even scientists don't yet know what the world is made of, atoms aren't the smallest thing in the world, and what is the smallest in unknown. I guess it's a mystery we can't solve at the moment.

But there are no feats present to public view or something, so I think if manipulation is possible, it's hard as hell. Probably once we've learnt to "shape the world" with our thoughts, it can't be unshaped easily, without suffering errr, insanity, for example Because even if you're successful how are you supposed to know that it's truly happening and not only in your mind?

Some healthy person would probably go crazy if they as much as saw something "impossible", our minds are so fragile... We suffer serious consequences even from such trifles like stress. Seeing something impossible presents a danger.

But are you now suggesting that the kid sees it in his eyes floating or just tries it and nothing happens? Because children have very pure state of mind and if world worked like we have speculated here, I think there is a high chance that a kid could do that.

Probably he just wants it to happen and it doesn't, well, I find it hard to imagine that the kid would succeed! I've never seen such a thing. It can't be that simple, even if you have a mind that hasn't "shaped reality" yet, there's something that prevents you from manipulating it. Perhaps manipulation is impossible until things are solidly shaped, and after they're shaped it's too hard to manipulate them..

I'll PM you for other things, a bit later

Life is a dream. But it's a shared dream, which means unlike a regular night time dreams, you aren't the sole person influencing it. If you want to fly in RL, there are billions of people who negate those attempts.

The world does change in a dream like manner. One day it's flat, the next it's round. Reality is only what we all agree on.

The first rule of dreaming is that everything requires your attention to exist. That includes pain. If you stop to pay attention to your wounds, then it hurts. If you have more pressing matters at hand, like running for your life, the pain doesn't exist.

Watch children playing to see this happen in RL. Some kid can run head first into a brick wall in the most painful manner that makes you wince just to watch it, then they shake it off and jump back into the game they were playing like nothing happened. Unless the parents make a big deal over it, and draw attention to the injury, in which case the kid begins bawling.
(been trying to find a youtube vid to illustrate that)