• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




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    1. #1
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      Lucid dreaming is a form of astral projection ?

      I am not new to LD but very new to the whole idea of it all. I have been reading up on it and came across this site on Qabbala and found LD described as a stage of astral projection.

      http://www.orderofthewhitelion.com/Q...rojection.html

      Has anyone else heard of this ? Does this mean if we practice enough we can get to a stage where we can project at will while awake and fully concious ?

    2. #2
      The avatarless one
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      I know that some people believe that astral projections and lucid dreams are the same. Personally, I think they are two different things.
      http://i25.tinypic.com/4g19w9.jpg

    3. #3
      Dreamer dallyup52's Avatar
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      LD Vs Astral Projection

      My experience is that the two are closely related and different mostly by the way we use our brain to interpret the experience.

      If I float above my body (consciously with full control and memory of this reality) and see my room and then go to see my sister 2200 miles away and see her it is normally regarded as an Astral Projection or OOBE.

      If I float into another dimension (anything other than this collective dream/reality) and see myself there (consciously with full control and memory of this reality) and do things with those friends then it might be called a Lucid Dream.

      Some people call that a big difference and I don't.

      BlessU
      Sam

    4. #4
      Member ChaybaChayba's Avatar
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      Lucid dreaming, meditation and astral projection are all very closely related and I think they are all some way to experience the same new world, but then again I don't know much about astral projection and OOBEs..

    5. #5
      WILDer Trapped's Avatar
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      from what i understand from person experience is that astral projection and lucid dreaming differ in what path you take after sleep paralysis. for me, after i'm paralized if i dont focus on having an ld then i just stay around outside of my body, but havent explored much more after that mostly due to fear, but i would assume that u could astral project from that state instead of entering a lucid dream, but thats just a thought

    6. #6
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      Thank you very much everyone for your thoughts.

      I LD quite frequently. I just had one early this morning. I woke up at 6 am with a dream where I was going to a school fair. Instead of getting up, I went back into the dream and had LD until I actually woke up at 8 am. It was fun as I was going around the fair ( It was big ) and playing at each and every stall.

      However, I have not had a LD where I would look back and see my body sleeping in bed. Is this achievable ? To be concious of yourself outside of your physical body voluntarily? I guess its like OBE but as I understand it OBE is mostly involuntary. Am I wrong here ?

      I have read how monks and high priests sit in meditation then they astral profect their " soul " to wherever they want to go, across various dimensions to do different deeds. Is this achievable via LD ?
      Last edited by annsie; 05-17-2008 at 12:00 AM.

    7. #7
      WILDer Trapped's Avatar
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      well for me i have oobe before i actually have an LD so i've seen my prone form laying in bed but it wasnt during an LD i was still awake and concious and as to the soul it really depends on what your beliefs are

    8. #8
      Dreamer dallyup52's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by annsie View Post
      Thank you very much everyone for your thoughts.

      I LD quite frequently. I just had one early this morning. I woke up at 6 am with a dream where I was going to a school fair. Instead of getting up, I went back into the dream and had LD dream until I actually woke up at 8 am. It was fun as I was going around the fair ( It was big ) and playing at each and every stall.

      However, I have not had a LD where I would look back and see my body sleeping in bed. Is this achievable ? To be concious of yourself outside of your physical body voluntarily? I guess its like OBE but as I understand it OBE is mostly involuntary. Am I wrong here ?

      I have read how monks and high priests sit in meditation then they astral profect their " soul " to wherever they want to go, across various dimensions to do different deeds. Is this achievable via LD ?
      It is possible to go from LD to OOBE. And possible to go just about anywhere. I have been everywhere at once also. It is also possible to go consciously and purposefully from relaxation to OOBE and feel the movement into the energetic state.

      Follow your heart
      BlessU
      Sam

    9. #9
      I am become fish pear Abra's Avatar
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      No, no. Astral Projection is a stage of Lucid Dream. In short, it is a lucid dream in which you make consciously (or unconsciously) make yourself non-lucid, insisting that you are in some realm that bears resemblance to reality, or is not a dream.
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

    10. #10
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      WOW Dallyup ! Thanks !

      That would be super cool . I have been a natural since teenager but I have only found out about LD a few days ago. In all of my LDs to date it has all been about fun, like singing on stage or going to fair or flying but I havent tried going very far or OBE yet. I wonder if just concentrating on the thought and trying to OBE would work ? I think I need a teacher

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Abra View Post
      No, no. Astral Projection is a stage of Lucid Dream. In short, it is a lucid dream in which you make consciously (or unconsciously) make yourself non-lucid, insisting that you are in some realm that bears resemblance to reality, or is not a dream.
      Oh ! Now I am confused ! What do you mean by make yourself non lucid ? You mean you know you are in a dream but you insist that you are not ? and that would turn into astral projection ?

      From what I read about astral projection, in that state, you can go through walls and fly and travel very far ... which is what I can do during my LD. However, during my LD I have not been aware of my physical body still sleeping in bed, I felt like its the whole me doing all these things.

    12. #12
      WILDer Trapped's Avatar
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      well i dont know if i completely agree with Abra on that point, because astral projection for me (which i have successfully done on several occasions but no longer do) is different than LDing. other realms do exist, the catholic church has exorcists, so the demons have to exist on some other plane, i was exploring the occult for some time and its scary, now im a baptist. but religion aside astral projection is separate from LDing.
      WILDs in '06: 111
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    13. #13
      I am become fish pear Abra's Avatar
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      What people refuse to realize is that astral projection is a plain-old dream. Same chemicals and biological processes fire off, so there is no real difference in 'state.' Dreams form and change at the mercy of expectation. So if you believe you are "on another plane," the dream environment will behave differently.

      I usually classify astral projections as once-lucid dreams. They are dreams where you are conscious, but you don't believe that you are dreaming. Instead, you stunt your capabilities by insisting you are in an alternate plane of some sort.
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

    14. #14
      WILDer Trapped's Avatar
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      well i guess that remains up to u to decide
      WILDs in '06: 111
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      WILDs in '08: 179

    15. #15
      Dreamer dallyup52's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by annsie View Post
      WOW Dallyup ! Thanks !

      That would be super cool . I have been a natural since teenager but I have only found out about LD a few days ago. In all of my LDs to date it has all been about fun, like singing on stage or going to fair or flying but I havent tried going very far or OBE yet. I wonder if just concentrating on the thought and trying to OBE would work ? I think I need a teacher
      Annsie,

      I am 60 now and have been doing this (OOBE and LD's) as long as I can remember. In to my 20's I still thought that it was just fun stuff and didn't really have any connection with this reality. Then I started doing experiments to check it out. I am an engineer and the research thing was a natural, too.

      Anyway after I validated the things that I saw that I could never have known it all started coming together. Then my brother and his girlfriend came to visit me "out there" (I had never met his girl friend as they were thousands of miles away). I saw and spoke to her (later I met her). That really clinched it for me beyond a doubt. Though I don't expect anyone to really believe in the connection with this reality until they have a validating experience themselves.

      A teacher would be nice but you probably know more than most "teachers" if you have been doing this for a while. I think that the transition form LD to OOBE is a pereonal thing but for me it is just an energy shift to be "viewing" this reality rather than the "dream"scape. In my beliefs that is just another reality.

      Follow your heart
      BlessU
      Sam

    16. #16
      Member Robot_Butler's Avatar
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      I know some people think LDs and OBEs are different things. I agree that they can be different experiences. When I WILD, I get more of the classic OBE type of experience, and when I DILD, I get the typical LD. Personally, I see them as just different types or levels of lucid dreams, but different experientially.

      Studied from a physiological level, they are identical. Your physical body is doing the exact same thing during an OBE that it is doing in a LD. From that standpoint, there is absolutely no danger of somehow accidentally going OBE and suddenly cutting some silver cord, and never being able to return to your body. I've died in OBEs, died in LDs, had energy sucked out of me in both, been shown the face of god, been sucked back into my body, ect. ect. I don't believe there is any danger.

      Also, there is no proof that OBEs are real. By that, I mean, no one has been able to succeed in experiments to prove they have a connection to the waking world. Its pretty simple to have a friend write something on a piece of paper, and then have you try to read it in your OBE. Unfortunately, nobody has ever succeeded in doing this.

      That being said, I don't discount the possibility that all dreams, lucid, OBE, or otherwise, are real on some level. I still question the reality of my consciousness in my waking life. I think its foolish to be overconfident about your knowledge of anything in this wacky world. I don't assume my silly little, perception based, human brain is smart enough have anything totally figured out. I try to keep an open mind, and respect the mystery of both waking life and dreaming life.

      There's no reason you can't try both OBE and LD, and see for yourself. Its definitely a real phenomenon, so lets all try to figure it out through experience. Let your own experience be your guide.

      Have you guys checked out the Beyond Dreaming section?
      http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...splay.php?f=19

      Its (supposedly) there for people to discuss stuff like this without getting flamed by skeptics.

    17. #17
      I am become fish pear Abra's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Robot_Butler View Post
      I know some people think LDs and OBEs are different things. I agree that they can be different experiences. When I WILD, I get more of the classic OBE type of experience, and when I DILD, I get the typical LD. Personally, I see them as just different types or levels of lucid dreams, but different experientially.

      Studied from a physiological level, they are identical. Your physical body is doing the exact same thing during an OBE that it is doing in a LD. From that standpoint, there is absolutely no danger of somehow accidentally going OBE and suddenly cutting some silver cord, and never being able to return to your body. I've died in OBEs, died in LDs, had energy sucked out of me in both, been shown the face of god, been sucked back into my body, ect. ect. I don't believe there is any danger.

      Also, there is no proof that OBEs are real. By that, I mean, no one has been able to succeed in experiments to prove they have a connection to the waking world. Its pretty simple to have a friend write something on a piece of paper, and then have you try to read it in your OBE. Unfortunately, nobody has ever succeeded in doing this.

      That being said, I don't discount the possibility that all dreams, lucid, OBE, or otherwise, are real on some level. I still question the reality of my consciousness in my waking life. I think its foolish to be overconfident about your knowledge of anything in this wacky world. I don't assume my silly little, perception based, human brain is smart enough have anything totally figured out. I try to keep an open mind, and respect the mystery of both waking life and dreaming life.

      There's no reason you can't try both OBE and LD, and see for yourself. Its definitely a real phenomenon, so lets all try to figure it out through experience. Let your own experience be your guide.

      Have you guys checked out the Beyond Dreaming section?
      http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...splay.php?f=19

      Its (supposedly) there for people to discuss stuff like this without getting flamed by skeptics.
      I came back from a hiatus today, and this was the first thread I saw. I was worried until I saw this post. XD


      Watch out, the second paragraph is vulnerable to Astral Projection's characteristic of infallibility (in other words, some one can ruin your argument by saying those weren't "true" APs. XD).
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

    18. #18
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      Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate them all !

      I wonder if its possible that there are many dimensions co existing in this universe. Ours is just one dimension. With our physical eyes we can only see this dimension. When we are asleep and "project" out of body, using other "eyes" and other senses that we could cross over to another dimension to experience whats there ?

      Could there be a dream dimension that we can experience with LD ? From there can we access other dimensions? If the physiological state is the same for LD and astral projection, we should be able to cross from dream dimension to ?spiritual dimension? Can we learn to do so while awake and fully concious ?

    19. #19
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      Start doing it when you are asleep! Then see if you can do while awake.
      I believe lucid dreams and OBEs are both astral phenomena. In OBEs you project out of your physical body and in LDs you project into your astral mind.

      Also, there is no proof that OBEs are real. By that, I mean, no one has been able to succeed in experiments to prove they have a connection to the waking world. Its pretty simple to have a friend write something on a piece of paper, and then have you try to read it in your OBE. Unfortunately, nobody has ever succeeded in doing this.
      It is funny that you say that even though right before your post Dallyup offers convincing proof.

    20. #20
      I am become fish pear Abra's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Start doing it when you are asleep! Then see if you can do while awake.
      I believe lucid dreams and OBEs are both astral phenomena. In OBEs you project out of your physical body and in LDs you project into your astral mind.



      It is funny that you say that even though right before your post Dallyup offers convincing proof.
      I doubt any true scientist would accept that as proof. It may be pure coincidence "her hair was blond and her eyes were green! It looked just like her!", there could be smudging of the account "in the dream, she was humping a ketchup bottle, but I won't post that because I would lose credibility," or perhaps something like "I've dreamed about her a few times, but in the rest she looked different, so I won't post about that..."

      A test where the user searches for words already written, but unknown to the APer, is highly valuable because there are trillions of good sentences out there. If the APer claims that they saw the person abroad exactly, then seeing words in the other room shouldn't be too hard. We could even help the APer out by telling him/her how many words are in the sentence.
      Last edited by Abra; 05-17-2008 at 02:17 PM.
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

    21. #21
      Dreamer dallyup52's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by annsie View Post
      Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate them all !

      I wonder if its possible that there are many dimensions co existing in this universe. Ours is just one dimension. With our physical eyes we can only see this dimension. When we are asleep and "project" out of body, using other "eyes" and other senses that we could cross over to another dimension to experience whats there ?

      Could there be a dream dimension that we can experience with LD ? From there can we access other dimensions? If the physiological state is the same for LD and astral projection, we should be able to cross from dream dimension to ?spiritual dimension? Can we learn to do so while awake and fully concious ?
      Jane Roberts speaks of these types of senarios in her "Seth" series. However, it seems to me that the "truth" might be other than our brains can comprehend. I know that when I get really far out "there" it is beyond my brain's comprehension to bring back in one piece or any pieces.

      People ask me if it is bliss. Well some of the places are blissful but farther "out" there isn't what I would call "bliss". Out "there" bliss just isn't a concept, there are no concepts, no good and evil, God and Devil, no "things" to compare to. Words don't do "it" justice. Okay, it's not an "it" either.

      It seems to me that I encounter energies out "there" and my brain makes it's best effort to make sense of it from the basis of my education and world experrience and physical ability. The white light becomes God, parent, Budda ... whatever. You get the picture. Some of the energy is so foreign to this reality it is hard to make sense of it. To call it other dimensions is probably as close as we can come without inventing either some extra words or using words with implied meanings (a jargon, if you will.)

      BlessU
      Sam

      Follow your heart
      BlessU
      Sam

    22. #22
      Member Robot_Butler's Avatar
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      Basically, I believe that astral projection is as real as the waking world. The problem is, I believe the waking world is an illusion. So, I believe astral projection is an illusion, and the waking world is an illusion.

      I think that if I can enter the astral plane, it must be real. I believe everything. I am fine with keeping them separate but equally real. I think that if you wanted to bring your experiences into the waking world, you need to make them work on the same level as the waking world. You would need 'evidence' that is based on the waking world's rules. This is where I start to have a hard time. I haven't seen evidence that shows AP is real, even though I believe it to be real. Therefore, I continue to keep them separate.

      I don't think people are lying when they tell stories of Astral Projection. I Astral Project all the time. I just think that trying to make it jive with the way the waking world works causes some hiccups.

    23. #23
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      Thank you very much for the replies.

      Regarding astral projection being real, I wonder if OBE can be considered astral projection. I have met people who were supposedly brain dead, in a coma for months who when "woken" up could describe things that happened to them during this time as accurately as if they were awake.

      I had a patient whose heart stopped and was clinically dead during a complicated bowel operation. She was supposedly dead for several minutes before the team managed to bring her back to life. When she recovered, she recounted what happened in the operating threatre while doctors were trying to revive her. She could even recount what the surgeon said during that time and was a bit upset that he swore at her loudly !

      Would that not be enough evidence ?

    24. #24
      Member Robot_Butler's Avatar
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      Thats pretty amazing. Its enough for me, but like I said, I believe everything

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      Let me recount to you in details what happened. The case was even heard in Court because she wanted to sue the surgeon for the event and the fact that he swore at her. The case was thrown out because legally it was not accepted that the patient could see and hear what was going on while being clinically dead. However, everyone of us who were there ( I was the assistant ) knew she spoke the truth.

      She recounted suddenly "woken up" and found herself floating near the ceiling. She looked down and saw her body being worked on by many doctors and nurses and people were shouting and panicking and running around. She felt very scared and wanted to run away. At that time she heard the surgeon yelled out " F it ! Dont you dare die on me !" , " F you, come back now" ... and she got angry at that so she decided to get back into her body to tell him just how insulting it was to hear him swearing at her and that it wasnt her fault that her heart stopped.

      Anyone who works in an operating threatre knows to avoid swearing and talking about the patient in a negative manner as many have experienced this.

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