Thread: A Treatise on Proof

Originally Posted by Goldenspark

Interesting thread! I have not read it all.... but getting back to the proof theme. I didn't see any mention (apologies if I missed it in skimming) of LaBerge's experiment when he got a subject to flick their eyes while in an LD. Because the subject was hooked up to an EEG machine they could tell he was in REM, and the predetermined signal was for him to flick his eyes several times in one direction (if I remember correctly).
While not absolute proof, it is some powerful real evidence of the existence of LD.

I can't remember myself, but I don't think LaBerge's work was specifically mentioned. This was for a good reason, though, because that would have let the conversation stray to proving to others that lucid dreaming is real, which I have no interest in. The baseline that "it's been proven" is enough for me and this thread. What really matters is proving to yourself that you had an LD last night (already assuming that LD's are more than possible).

That said:

My point then is, how do we do an experiment that gives us proof of our own lucid dream?
For me the few lucids I have had are so stunningly different in clarity compared to my regular dreams that I was in no doubt of what they were, and of course I "knew" I was dreaming.
The other pointer is that I have the Zeo headband, so I can show that my LD was followed by immediately waking from a period of REM (according to the Zeo which claims to be 70% accurate compared to an EEG in a sleep lab).

You might not need to do an experiment, because that "stunning" memory was more than enough. Since Ld's are waking-life consciousness events, they get stored as waking-life memories (usually long-term memories too, given their importance to you). So yes, if you remember being lucid, and that memory is more a part of you than something you must struggle to recall, you were very likely lucid, and, in my opinion, can stop there.

However:

Maybe I could record my eyes during the night and look for a similar thing that LaBerge did?

It does need to be said that LaBerge did many of his experiments on himself -- especially early on when test subjects who could actually LD were few and far between. Much of his data, and his conclusions in his book, were actually drawn from monitoring himself. So yes, if you have a ZEO headband or other device that can record eye-movement, you could probably set up an experiment on yourself.

One word of warning, though (and one that LaBerge scoffed at when I mentioned it): During the periods of REM very late in a sleep cycle, which is when most of us LD, it is very possible to be more awake than asleep when you do your eye movements. In other words, even though the machinery is still detecting REM (and even appropriate brainwaves), you might be close enough to a waking state that you're not actually in a dream when you move your eyes.

So if you do try this experiment, make a point of moving your eyes during a solid dream, and not during that misty gray time when there aren't many dream images, if any.

Any other ideas about how to prove to oneself that you did in fact have an LD? The only motor control you have is your eyes, but maybe recognising some real world effect, like flashing lights or sound could be used?

It sounds like you don't need anything else, but I honestly can't think of a better experiment than LaBerge's eye-movement. It must be something that you're sending out to the real world, though, because it is very easy to non-lucidly incorporate outside signals coming in, like light or sound, into a dream, with your dreaming mind dutifully creating a schema that includes your noticing those signals.

tl;dr: If you've fulfilled the 2 requirements listed in the OP of this thread -- and I think you have -- you've already proven to yourself that you LD, Goldenspark. There's no need, in my opinion to do more, but you can certainly try.

On Shared dreams, The scientific proof should be easy, even if the actual shared dream is not. I'm quite prepared to believe that two dreamers in the same room could interact subliminally to allow shared dream data that could meet scientific scrutiny. If they were talking in their sleep that might not be too remarkable though!

That's a good reason, I think, to have dream-sharers sleep in separate rooms!

Apologies, I somehow thought that your treatise was looking for proof in the purest sense, i.e. objective proof, in which case proof to yourself and others could be the same thing.
The fact that it is so easy to fool yourself into thinking you were lucid, but actually you just dreamt you were lucid, makes it such a subjective thing that an objective proof would be ideal.

Now that there are EEG neuroscience software platforms that allow the brain to control things (robot arms, objects on a screen etc.), I don't suppose it will be too long before someone can send a message to the outside world via brain activity while in a lucid dream. There are even keyboard entry programs, so I suppose someone could even spell out "I am lucid dreaming"!

On shared dreaming, actually I thought that getting an interaction between 2 people dreaming in the same room would be a good start, not "cheating".
It would be even worth using a common cue to both subjects just to see what happened. Geting 2 sbjects to be dreaming at the same time would be difficult enough. What about lucid at the same time?

^^ Sure, objective proof would certainly be ideal; I can't argue with that!

But, for the purposes of your own experience, and as a tool for avoiding being "fooled" by false lucids, subjective proof is enough to get your mind and memory in the right place after a potential LD. On a practical note, as we can't yet all be wired up to machines to test, a simpler subjective test for proof might be a dreamer's only route.

So yes, until those brainwave interfaces are available, we might be consigned to working out our own, personal paths to proof --or perhaps building experiments that do the same. The true key from my perspective is a need to confirm what just happened, for the sake of having the correct baseline for your next attempt at LD'ing, rather than just accepting or believing that what just happened to you was a LD (which is not a good baseline because it doesn't allow you to make the adjustments necessary to achieve actual lucidity, much less improve your skills).

Originally Posted by Goldenspark

On shared dreaming, actually I thought that getting an interaction between 2 people dreaming in the same room would be a good start, not "cheating". It would be even worth using a common cue to both subjects just to see what happened. Geting 2 sbjects to be dreaming at the same time would be difficult enough. What about lucid at the same time?

I hadn't thought putting two subjects in the room together to be cheating per se, just that it could open the door to things other than shared dreaming to happen (ie, subliminal or sub-vocal communication, telepathy, coincidence based on sleeping in a mutually shared environment), so a separation might be in order. I must have misunderstood, because I thought that's what you were implying as well...

Yes, I think the timing of the lucidity would be difficult, but not impossible. For instance, when the experimenter sees that both subjects are in REM, he could wake them simultaneously, giving them an opportunity to DEILD, and thus be lucid at the same time. It might take a while to sync up the REM periods, but it ought to work eventually.

Wow, this is a long thread and so I will set aside some time to read it but I have an initial thought which is something that I personally do in regards to 'proof' and it would be interesting if this thread could be continued via this 'technique' that I use.

When im lucid I say to myself out loud "NOTE TO MYSELF THIS REALLY IS A LUCID DREAM and ITS FANTASTIC AND REAL, I AM NOW NOSE PLUGGING AND REALLY LUCID"

I say this as sometimes my lucid dream turns into a non lucid and when i wake iand start recalling my dreams i then get fragments of what i believe was a lucid dream which i the piece together to remember the whole experience. i then ususally recall shouting that phrase to myself which confirms to me when awake that it was actually a lucid dream and not a non-lucid where i was dreaming that i was lucid

So sending a verbal command to myself whilst lucid to be remebered when awake in this way helps me realize that i was actually lucid

I hope this 2 pence (not 2 cents - im english!) helps

^^ Shouting such an affirmation during the dream seems a good idea, but I can't resist offering a counter-thought:

What is to prevent you from non-lucidly dreaming that shout, especially because you've built expectation during waking-life that the occurrence of that shout and RC indicates that a good happened? In other words, couldn't your dreaming mind draw from expectation and day residue to simply create a scene wherein this shout occurs, a scene wherein you are never actually lucid? For what it's worth, similar things have happened to me way too many times.

So: Though this technique certainly seems useful for confirming and amplifying lucidity at the time of an actual LD, I personally would still recommend using the quality of your memory of the experience, rather than the content of what you are remembering, to best determine, for yourself, if you were truly lucid.

It's nice to see some attention being paid to this thread again, BTW, since I think this subject is just as important as it was five years ago.

Hmm not B-Slapped for necro-posting into thread from dawn of time

Ezzo: I would think since you claim to use canDEILD that you would tend to know you were lucid because a few seconds earlier you were momentarily awake.

Sageous: I would have to disagree with the idea in first post that lucid are all well remembered.

My first intentional lucid dream was totally forgotten when I woke I went to the bathroom then came back sat down and reality checked by looking at my hand three times saying "This" "Never" "Wor....... Wait a second it worked last time" and the whole 3 minute lucid came back to me. As I remembered the weird result of my reality check in dream where I stared at my hand for nearly a whole minute and then tried to mess with DC (and was Dream Heckled by one) until the dreamscape aggressively attacked me enveloping me in fast growing grass (from initially rock) and destabilized me.

Several Lucids since involved the more usual method of forgetting Lucidity. I Become lucid, I run around, then I decide to fly or jump and get stuck in the air. I can't reach the ground and wake up. Of course I don't bother to get out of bed I'm not in the right one anyways, why bother to get dressed I'm already wearing ridiculous random crap after all. I immediately run up to DC's and tell them all about my lucid dream (non lucidly of course). I am of course the victim of a false awakening which has taken my awareness and eventually my dream. But upon waking, I remember backwards and when I come across the segment of retelling the Lucid I recover it. (happened several times)

Sometimes of course instead of running around I am false journaling my lucid. The last time it happened I was using a remote control to record my lucid on a VHS tape using an interactive NTSC television set. (I don't even have a TV)

Originally Posted by cooleymd

Sageous: I would have to disagree with the idea in first post that lucid are all well remembered.

First, I never said that all LD's are well-remembered. What I said, and still say, is that LD's are remembered with the same mechanisms used to store waking-life consciousness events. Plenty of waking-life consciousness events are forgotten too. Things are well-remembered when they are significant, and there are certainly plenty of LD's that never make the significance grade.

That said, it seems to me that the support you listed for your disagreement seems rather to confirm, and nicely clarify, my points:

My first intentional lucid dream was totally forgotten when I woke I went to the bathroom then came back sat down and reality checked by looking at my hand three times saying "This" "Never" "Wor....... Wait a second it worked last time" and the whole 3 minute lucid came back to me. As I remembered the weird result of my reality check in dream where I stared at my hand for nearly a whole minute and then tried to mess with DC (and was Dream Heckled by one) until the dreamscape aggressively attacked me enveloping me in fast growing grass (from initially rock) and destabilized me.

Your first LD wasn't forgotten at all; it seems to me that it was effectively stored in your short-term memory at a minimum, and probably your long-term memory (as waking-life consciousness events tend to be stored) as well. You did not totally forget the dream (as generally would have been the case, had it been a NLD), but rather you simply did not access its memory for a while after you woke up. That you were able to remember it in detail some time after you got up shows that you had indeed done a fine job storing the dream.

Several Lucids since involved the more usual method of forgetting Lucidity. I Become lucid, I run around, then I decide to fly or jump and get stuck in the air. I can't reach the ground and wake up. Of course I don't bother to get out of bed I'm not in the right one anyways, why bother to get dressed I'm already wearing ridiculous random crap after all. I immediately run up to DC's and tell them all about my lucid dream (non lucidly of course). I am of course the victim of a false awakening which has taken my awareness and eventually my dream. But upon waking, I remember backwards and when I come across the segment of retelling the Lucid I recover it. (happened several times)

I'm not sure I fully followed this paragraph, but it seems again that the memory of the lucid moment was strong enough to survive a FA, another dream, and a few moments of wakefulness. That you can still "find" the LD after some backtracking implies that it is a more powerful memory than it would have been had it been a NLD. In the end, you didn't forget your lucidity, but rather had its moment eclipsed by subsequent events -- you sort of just set the moment aside, but still retained its memory. Had your dream not been lucid, those subsequent events likely would have permanently erased the NLD, but, since your dream was lucid, all it took was a bit of digging to retrieve the LD that had been securely stowed in your memory... which I believe was what I was saying in the OP of this thread, so many years ago...

Yes they were eventually recalled in these cases but for each one recalled I'm sure on some other days and equal number were lost, tho when I wake after every cycle (as is often the case) I doubt I lose many on such days.

The one I referred to was many dream segments back, I had to recall like 3 other scenes and then the one of retelling the Lucid being 4 scenes back so the lucid was buried 5 scenes deep.

All of these segments were parts of the same dream tho, as I had awoken from the previous cycle and recalled other dream segments from it. and had then woken from this subsequent cycle with these 5 segments so yes the dream was buried behind about 10 - 12 minutes of non lucid dream portions.


You do mention intentional waking from lucid elsewhere in the thread. The primary reason I would make such a choice is to not forget the dream. Often if I gain and then lose lucidity but then regain it, I will realize this is a danger (to forget all) and thus choose to wake. Why if not for this reason do you speak of intentionally waking? (for just more detail?)

I am a skeptic of people who wake after sleeping in and supposedly recall like 9 or 10 dreams, because I can often wake at 6am and again at 7am and in each one remember 5-8 distinct dream segments and know they are all from one dream. Often will 2-5 more previous awakenings with 3-5 segments each. I only count one Dream per cycle, and If I wake after multiple cycles while I can't know it isn't from multiple cycles I assume everything I recall is from the last dream.

Transitions can often be quick and absurd and yet accepted in the dream, but on awakening would likely be mistaken as separate dreams (by waking every cycle I can't make this mistake and often instead try to recall the transitions too, tho they often make you want to slap yourself for failure to trigger).

Hello!

I am a hardcore pothead. So, my remembering of dreams is under the level of catastrophic. Now, I am older, I do not smoke all the day, and I do relatively lot of meditation and mindfulness practice. My sweetest joint is the goodnight joint. Thanks for this passion I can not remember normally my dreams. In months, from zero I was evolving to almost every night fragments. I have automatically 1 LD every month. (sometimes I make "WILD marathons" and than I have around 20 LDs in one year). Now, here comes the essence: I always remember my LD-s very good. Like daytime memories. Even when I was smoking myself to coma, and having nights that are flying away in seconds with a dark amnesia, if I had a LD, I was remembering it (maybe not crystal clear, but compared to the conditions, it was super good). So, I am using my remembering for knowing that what I had, was a real LD. Interesting is, that I can remember slightly better the "fake LD" dreams, than the normal dreams. Maybe because there was a glimpse of awareness.

Originally Posted by cooleymd

All of these segments were parts of the same dream tho, as I had awoken from the previous cycle and recalled other dream segments from it. and had then woken from this subsequent cycle with these 5 segments so yes the dream was buried behind about 10 - 12 minutes of non lucid dream portions.

And today, which memory is clearer? Those 10-12 minutes, or the moment of lucidity? I ask this knowing that the 10-12 NLD minutes had to have been memorable, because they bracketed your first LD, but still confident that the more powerful memory is the LD.

You do mention intentional waking from lucid elsewhere in the thread. The primary reason I would make such a choice is to not forget the dream. Often if I gain and then lose lucidity but then regain it, I will realize this is a danger (to forget all) and thus choose to wake. Why if not for this reason do you speak of intentionally waking? (for just more detail?)

I don't remember ever mentioning intentionally waking from a LD, and therefore certainly don't remember its context, but I generally recommend the opposite: it is better to enjoy your dream and continue your lucid explorations than it is to preserve the memory of a particular dream. I might have felt differently 5 years ago (which you'll likely prove in your next post ), but I don't feel that way now: if you are in a lucid dream, stay in it; don't worry about recording it or anything else. Besides, since LD's are waking-life consciousness events, you will likely have no trouble remembering it upon waking later on, right? If I said differently once in the heat of a conversation, please disregard.

I am a skeptic of people who wake after sleeping in and supposedly recall like 9 or 10 dreams, because I can often wake at 6am and again at 7am and in each one remember 5-8 distinct dream segments and know they are all from one dream. Often will 2-5 more previous awakenings with 3-5 segments each. I only count one Dream per cycle, and If I wake after multiple cycles while I can't know it isn't from multiple cycles I assume everything I recall is from the last dream.

Transitions can often be quick and absurd and yet accepted in the dream, but on awakening would likely be mistaken as separate dreams (by waking every cycle I can't make this mistake and often instead try to recall the transitions too, tho they often make you want to slap yourself for failure to trigger).

Yes, I too feel that many "counts" of dreams from a previous night tend to get refined upon waking. I personally tend to call everything within one REM period (or, perhaps, the period between micro-awakenings) as one dream because, well, it is. But even then, when lucid, I have continued single dreams across wake-up periods as well, so the dream count winds up being even lower... which in the end sort of illustrates why counting your dreams is not the best thing to do.

It was the FA that I was referring to being buried in the 4th back segment with one of the LD before it.

The First Intentional but forgotten and then recalled after awakening LD was stand alone, I remember from only about 5 seconds before doing the test in dream, to the moment that I felt doomed in the LD as the grass was closing in.

I am pretty sure since the LD happened in the front yard (a yard of rock and no grass) that it was it self a part of a false awakening, and one of the things that caused me to test was that it was likely the wrong time of day, also the lack of cars but presence of 80 or so DC all walking at the same speed and in the same direction along my side street.

The dream was recalled only when I did the reality check after waking. In the dream when I did it I had 5 fingers and couldn't believe I was awake so I did the second time, and had 1, 2, 3, 4 and a transparent pinky makes 5, It instantly became solid, I stared at it, but when I noticed that my fingers were a bit to long (I have slightly stubby fingers in real life) two of them began to shrink, then to turn and twist too, so I knew it was a dream. I think the great stability of the dream came from staring (focusing) so long on the dream hand. (My next two lucids were about 5 and 10 seconds each one and two months latter, but were followed by actual awakening and recall)

Originally Posted by Sageous

[…]
What is to prevent you from non-lucidly dreaming that shout, especially because you've built expectation during waking-life that the occurrence of that shout and RC indicates that a good happened? In other words, couldn't your dreaming mind draw from expectation and day residue to simply create a scene wherein this shout occurs, a scene wherein you are never actually lucid? For what it's worth, similar things have happened to me way too many times.

So: Though this technique certainly seems useful for confirming and amplifying lucidity at the time of an actual LD, I personally would still recommend using the quality of your memory of the experience, rather than the content of what you are remembering, to best determine, for yourself, if you were truly lucid.
[…]

That sort of reminds me of something I experimented with a couple of times to try to prove lucidity to myself. During a LD, I decided to stop what I was doing for just a moment and ask myself to confirm whether or not I was aware I was dreaming and understood what that means, the idea being that if I was actually lucid, the fact that I was asking myself the question in the first place would prove it by definition. But when I woke up, I went a bit further and considered whether I clearly remembered being present in that moment and making that conscious decision to ask myself the question for the purpose of trying to verify my own lucidity/self-awareness. If so, I figured that it was probably unlikely to be a false lucid. That last part would seem to be consistent with your recommendation of considering the quality of the dream memory. Does this sound like a reasonable test?

^^ Yes, that does indeed sound like a reasonable test, but only because you went that bit further upon waking to confirm it all.... nicely done!

Also, the exercise you did during the dream can be a good tool for steadying or gathering your lucidity (when, of course, you are actually lucid! ). I do something similar on occasions when I need to gather my Self for a particularly difficult task. But keep in mind that, though it is a good tool when you are actually lucid, it is also a routine that you could easily dream you are doing while not lucid -- which is why I included that "only because" bit above. Anecdotally speaking, I had many dreams where I took such a pause to confirm and contemplate my lucidity -- my presence in my dream -- only to realize upon waking that I was never lucid...but I also had many occasions where I was truly lucid while doing the exercise (and made good use of it); with experience I have learned to tell the difference easily upon waking.

On this subject, I guess I'll throw out another thing I've been grappling with for a while. A frequent difficulty of mine is trying to differentiate between very weakly lucid dreams and false LDs. Now, at a certain threshold, a LD will be fairly unmistakable to me, it seems, but besides LDs and NLDs, I always seem to have this single, fuzzy “maybe false lucid, maybe semilucid, I'm not sure how to categorize these” bucket.

Historically (going back to before I had heard of false lucids, which are still a relatively new concept to me), I've simply called them “semilucid” dreams. To me, these would be the dreams that appear to have LD-like qualities but with some key element seemingly missing. For instance, maybe I seemed to have some idea that I was not in waking reality but didn't seem to specifically recognize that I was in a dream, or I couldn't seem to recall a particular “I'm dreaming” thought or feeling, or I didn't quite act or think in a way I'd expect to in a “proper” LD, or I seemed to be lucid but with very little memory of my waking life or my LD goals, or something else that just seemed a bit “off” about it.

Thinking of it now, I'm starting to wonder if many of those dreams I've been lumping into the “apparently lucid but not quite enough to mark in this DJ as a ‘real’ LD” category over the years were false lucid dreams. Or whether the concept of “semilucid” is actually very meaningful (especially since I've always essentially treated it as a category distinct from my “actual”, “I'm pretty sure about it” LDs).

I'm aware of the idea of using quality of recall to judge, but since recall even of LDs can vary on a spectrum, it's often not a black-and-white proposition to me. Sometimes I have dreams that really just seem to fall right on the fence, and it seems all I can really do is try to make the best, most objective guess I can: lucid, NLD/false lucid, or “semilucid” (if such a thing technically exists).

^^ Maybe this is something you don't need to grapple with, Travis. If you are already comfortable with how you judge and remember your "proper" LD's, you have proof enough of the dreams that, in terms of your LD practice, matter.

Now, this isn't to diminish the importance of your semi-lucids (that's a fine term in my opinion, BTW* ) or your false-lucids; all dreams have value. But, given that you seem able to identify your stronger or actual LD's, I don't think you need to spend much time wondering whether the other things were LD's or not (my personal rule of thumb: if you have to wonder, it probably wasn't a lucid, or was a very weak LD at best). I think that some dreams can be left behind -- especially if you can't quite remember or define them anyway. Just record them as whatever they felt like, and maybe skip calling them LD's at all...after all, you've got a high enough count at this point that you really don't need to do any fudging, right?



*As an aside, a semi-lucid is not the same as a false lucid. False lucids, for me, are dreams about being lucid and, upon waking, it is pretty clear that you were never self-aware during the dream. Semi-lucids would include some self-awareness, or at least some knowledge that you are dreaming. If you must keep a tally, semi-lucids can probably be included in the "LD" column.

Thanks for the input! I was beginning to suspect, in the process of organizing my thoughts and writing that post, that I didn't really need to worry about the “troublesome” dreams too much. Also, I think I understand the purpose of this thread more clearly now.

I don't feel the need to complicate things by adding more categories than necessary, so I actually keep things pretty simple (mainly just marking LDs to make them easier to find later). Although I do track the numbers, it's mainly just for curiosity/“for fun” purposes, because I'm that way. I try to make sure I remember not to place much significance in them.

Yeah, I think this is starting to make more sense to me. The other day I had a dream about falling asleep and believing that I might be seeing a dream forming, but when I woke up I just seemed to intuitively recognize it as a NLD (since I didn't remember actually being self aware that time). I didn't need to wonder about it. In fact, it didn't even occur to me at all, I think, that there was anything about the dream that could have theoretically been confused for actual lucidity until I had later gotten up and was reviewing the notes and writing the formal DJ entries.

On the other hand, the day before that I had one where I tried the sleeping-body-remembering exercise, noticed a lack of dream control and therefore tried repeating the exercise, tried the other thing we discussed recently*, looked around and played with a bunch of things, experimented more with control and thought of some theories about how it and my dream schema were operating during the dream, remembered to try many random ideas for LDs that were floating around in my mind the last few days—and then woke up and easily recalled everything I had done and thought in detail (and I had crammed a lot of activity and observations into that dream). I knew that one had to be a LD.

* Speaking of that, I think remembering to take a moment to notice and feel my presence in a LD is something I'd like to do more often. It somehow seems to make the whole experience more enjoyable, giving it more impact and allowing me to fully appreciate it. Even though I also try to do this in waking life, the feeling of doing it in a LD seems even more impressive.

Originally Posted by Sageous

So yeah, if during the dream you can pass any or all of those four corollaries

[1. Knowing that you are dreaming (amazingly enough)
2. Knowing that dream objects will disappear (remember O's daughter's dream of the shell on the beach?)
3. Knowing that physical laws need not apply
4. Clear memory of waking life]

, or 5. pass your RC tests, or 6. remember that your sleeping body still exists, right where you left it, then you're certainly lucid.

And, I believe, the memory of that lucidity will stay with you as a waking-life long-term memory, so after you're awake it will stay with you as easily as any other waking memory

I've finally read through the whole thread now (well, 80% of it--I skimmed/skipped some posts), and I think this is the clearest summary of the point I disagree on.

Sometimes all six of the above criteria are met, and yet my memory of the experience is still not as robust as daytime memories. I'm thinking of one in particular, though there have been several.

It may be pretty robust, but it usually still needs memory strengthening to ensure its preservation.

Has this never happened for you, Sageous, that the six criteria above have been met, and yet your memory is still inferior somewhat to that of daytime events?

^^ First, Venryx, when I read your post I said, "I said that? That sure doesn't sound like something I would say." So I scanned the thread and discovered that Ctharlhie actually posted those corollaries (as originally listed, I guess, by Deirdre Barret in one of her books). Those corollaries are not mine, with the exception I guess of #'s 5 & 6, which I assume you pulled from my response to Ctharlhie in the next post. I just wanted to make clear that the criteria listed have pretty much nothing to do with my OP, or the treatise in general (which is about how you deal with proving to yourself that you were lucid upon waking, and not that you are lucid while dreaming), and were part of a conversation I was apparently having with Ctharlhie about false lucids. I'm not sure why you attributed them to me, but be assured that, though they are arguably fine, I don't personally use them to measure the presence or quality of a LD, either during a LD or after waking.

That being made clear:

Originally Posted by Venryx

I've finally read through the whole thread now (well, 80% of it--I skimmed/skipped some posts), and I think this is the clearest summary of the point I disagree on.

Sometimes all six of the above criteria are met, and yet my memory of the experience is still not as robust as daytime memories. I'm thinking of one in particular, though there have been several.

Except, as I already noted, that you are actually basing your disagreement with D. Barret's criteria for deciding whether you are lucid during a dream, and not for remembering the dream upon waking. I believe my next post (#58) pretty much argued that you can have dreams about being lucid where all of those criteria are met, without ever actually enjoying the presence of your waking-life self-awareness (aka: lucidity) in the dream.

As much as nobody likes to talk about it, pretty much ever, I believe that False Lucids (FL's) can happen, and one way to realize that you weren't actually lucid might lie in the difficulty you are having in recalling the dream upon waking. This was one general point of the treatise; and of post #58, which I suggest you take a look at, so I don't have to delve too deeply here into FL's.

I personally have a feeling that this experience of false lucidity, especially for novice LD'ers who spend a lot of time thinking about or working on lucidity, happens far more often than we care to believe or accept. Frequent thinking about being lucid, imagining the feelings, reading other people's stories, doing day work, etc. tend to create both day residue and an unconscious desire to be lucid that can turn up in the content of our NLD's... so NLD's about lucidity are likely inevitable for all of us.

Per the OP, I have found that one sure way to confirm that my LD actually was a LD is that, upon waking, I can remember it like any other recent, important, waking-life consciousness event, and that the dream itself is not fading, as dreams normally tend to do (because, I believe, we are hard-wired to discard dreams immediately, lest their memory interfere with our waking-life memory and cause general cognitive confusion).

Here's the problem, and why I am truly an outlier with this theory: It is much nicer to wake up from a dream that sure felt lucid and decide it was a LD, even though it's already faded from my mind and was not stored as a memory, than it is to wake up and realize that, since I can't seem to retain the dream in which I was sure I was lucid, that I might not have been lucid at all. So I choose the option that errs in favor of lucidity, my goals, and generally feeling good about success. And, of course, as the dream fades and I am able to note that some of those criteria were met, I only feel better about having been lucid -- even though I never was.

I have a feeling -- and the reason I started this thread, if I remember properly, -- that a whole lot of dreams are being labeled as lucid in spite of the fact that lucidity was never achieved. Now, you might ask what harm there is in that? ... but there truly is harm, because a dreamer could get locked into a phase of only dreaming about LD,ing, and never give themself a chance to truly develop their skills, and discover the true experience of lucidity.

Okay, I'm pretty much repeating the OP and thread in general here, so enough said, I think.

Has this never happened for you, Sageous, that the six criteria above have been met, and yet your memory is still inferior somewhat to that of daytime events?

Far more often than I'd care to admit!

I read some of the posts and now im curious to see how the present sageous would rewrite his first post. To be honest as I read it I disagreed with certain points until I realized the way it was written may have confused many who read it, including me. Its a good discussion topic and there were good points worth mentioning though

^^ Aside from dropping things that other members argued well against, like proof #2 (retelling the dream), being maybe a bit less seemingly annoyed in the opening paragraphs (I wasn't), and allowing quite so much talk of shared dreaming, "present Sageous" probably wouldn't have changed a thing.

I'm sorry this is confusing for you; I do get that way! ... I suggest you read through a bit more... you might find that discussion with thoughtful members tended to unravel a lot of the stuff in the OP.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ First, Venryx, when I read your post I said, "I said that? That sure doesn't sound like something I would say." So I scanned the thread and discovered that Ctharlhie actually posted those corollaries [...] Those corollaries are not mine, with the exception I guess of #'s 5 & 6, which I assume you pulled from my response to Ctharlhie in the next post. [...] I'm not sure why you attributed them to me, but be assured that, though they are arguably fine, I don't personally use them to measure the presence or quality of a LD, either during a LD or after waking.

Sorry about that! If you look closely, you'll notice I put brackets around the list of 4 corollaries. I thought that would be clear enough to mark it as having come from the prior post, but I probably should have used another [QUOTE] tag.

It's true that while you didn't list those corollaries yourself, you did reference them, and very much seemed to have affirmed that they're sufficient to establish lucidity--at least while you're in a dream. (see below for the quotes)

I just included them in-line (in brackets) to make it clear what you were referencing--sorry for the confusion.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Except, as I already noted, that you are actually basing your disagreement with D. Barret's criteria for deciding whether you are lucid during a dream, and not for remembering the dream upon waking.

Well, although they weren't your criteria, you did essentially make them your own by saying (from #58), "if during the dream you can pass any or all of those four corollaries [...] then you're certainly lucid".

As well as (from #58): "Of course you can prove to yourself during the dream that you are lucid, with RC's, memory, and certain self-awareness confirmations like those four corollaries. To say otherwise would be absurd."

However, I think I understand now that you're making a clear distinction between proof during a dream and proof upon waking.

In other words, while the above quotes do seem to say pretty unambiguously that those criteria are sufficient to establish lucidity while you're in a dream, they don't count essentially once you wake up, because you may have only (non-lucidly) dreamed that they passed? Is that what you're saying?

Originally Posted by Sageous

I believe my next post (#58) pretty much argued that you can have dreams about being lucid where all of those criteria are met, without ever actually enjoying the presence of your waking-life self-awareness (aka: lucidity) in the dream.

But that's the same post where you said the two quotes above! Look them over again!

1) "if during the dream you can pass any or all of those four corollaries [...] then you're certainly lucid"
2) "Of course you can prove to yourself during the dream that you are lucid, with [...] confirmations like those four corollaries."

These quotes legitimately make it unclear to me what your position is!

I could try to understand your meaning better by going over the posts again, but I think it will be faster to just ask you directly:

Question 1) Let's say that you suddenly find yourself in what might be a dream. You remember the below 4 criteria, and start checking whether they're all true:

1. Knowing that you are dreaming (amazingly enough)
2. Knowing that dream objects will disappear (remember O's daughter's dream of the shell on the beach?)
3. Knowing that physical laws need not apply
4. Clear memory of waking life

Now let's say that you've found all 4 criteria to be true. Is that sufficient to prove to you, in that moment, that you are lucid?

Question 2) Now forget the scenario above, and pretend there's some other time, a week later say, where you just woke up. You have the feeling that you just exited a dream. So you think back, and remember a point in your dream where you checked all 4 of the criteria above, and they all passed. Of course, it's always possible your memory is faulty, but as much as you can remember, you checked the 4 criteria, and they really did pass (i.e. as much as you can remember, you really did know the dream objects would disappear, you really did know that physical laws need not apply, etc.). Is this sufficient to prove to you, now having awoken, that you were lucid in the dream?

Thank you! I legitimately want to clear up confusion on your position on this!

A small change can make a huge difference though. Don't worry. It was when you talked about retelling the dream and not being able to recall a lucid that stuck out to me more anyways. I was honestly afraid to continue reading those huge blocks of texts which is why I was hoping for the condensed version. XD

1. Knowing that you are dreaming (amazingly enough)
2. Knowing that dream objects will disappear (remember O's daughter's dream of the shell on the beach?)
3. Knowing that physical laws need not apply
4. Clear memory of waking life

I think this is where level of lucidity would come in as discussed in other threads.You could clear all 3 but have very little waking life memory. Its the waking life memory that takes the cake in the end. With no waking life memory you wont be aware its a dream or be aware its a dream and have completely different waking life memory.So this is how i see it.With very little you can be aware but still be immersed in the dream. With only a tiny bit of waking life memory lost you can be close to full lucidity or fully lucid and just happened to forget because you didn't care to remember in the end or distractions. Lastly there is fully lucid with full waking life memory. Although clear waking life memory is important it doesn't mean that you weren't lucid because you didn't ask yourself a list of waking life memory questions. For the most part when you wake up and think about/write the dream you can see signs that tell you whether you were or were not.

Okay guys. Aside from giving me flashbacks to what I went through with this thread originally, I have to say that you might be missing my overall point.

Those four criteria, which are not mine, which were brought up some 57 posts into this thread, and on which I already clearly commented ( I can tell because you seem to understand my points about them, even though you're still presenting arguments as if I am relying on the criteria for my treatise), and about which I spoke purely in the context Ctharhlie's post, are not, not, not the foundation of this thread, and have nothing, nothing, nothing to do with proving to yourself that you've had a LD after you've woken up. I never said they did, and never will.

I can't think of any way to say this more clearly, so I hope you understand: there really is no conflict, I think, or discrepancy in what I'm talking about because I had some good words to say about those 4 criteria in the context of a response to a question, so please try your best to shed them (the 4 criteria) from your attempt to understand what I'm saying here.... as I think I've said several times now, in terms of proof after waking, they really don't matter.

All that said:

Originally Posted by Venryx

Sorry about that! If you look closely, you'll notice I put brackets around the list of 4 corollaries. I thought that would be clear enough and to mark it as having come from the prior post, but I probably should have used another [QUOTE tag.

It's true that while you didn't list those corollaries yourself, you did reference them, and very much seemed to have affirmed that they're sufficient to establish lucidity--at least while you're in a dream. (see below for the quotes)

I just included them in-line (in brackets) to make it clear what you were referencing--sorry for the confusion.

Sorry; I did miss the brackets; but even with the brackets you seem seem to have implied that the criteria were mine, and that they were integral to the premise of the OP; I would say "My bad" for misunderstanding, yet you are still bringing them up, below, as though they mattered to me:

The key part there -- and the only reason I referenced them -- was to confirm that, sure, if you are lucid, they would be handy for confirming that lucidity during the dream. Aside from that, they would have nothing whatsoever to do with how you confirm to yourself that you were lucid upon waking ... and I hope you noted that I also spoke at length about how those criteria can be confirmed in a NLD as well, simply by dreaming about making those confirmations.

Well, although they weren't your criteria, you did essentially make them your own by saying (from #58), "if during the dream you can pass any or all of those four corollaries [...] then you're certainly lucid".

No. I didn't.

I've reread that part of the post several times now, and I still cannot understand how you drew the conclusion that I decided those criteria worked to confirm that you were lucid after you woke up. I think I even used italics to confirm that sure, the criteria were excellent tools for confirming lucidity while you were lucid, during the dream, but those same criteria could just as easily be incorporated into a NLD, where you dream about asking the questions... and, how you remember it all upon waking is where the final determination is made.

As well as (from #58): "Of course you can prove to yourself during the dream that you are lucid, with RC's, memory, and certain self-awareness confirmations like those four corollaries. To say otherwise would be absurd."

However, I think I understand now that you're making a clear distinction between proof during a dream and proof upon waking.

If you understand that, then why are you still asking about it?

In other words, while the above quotes do seem to say pretty unambiguously that those criteria are sufficient to establish lucidity while you're in a dream, they don't count essentially once you wake up, because you may have only (non-lucidly) dreamed that they passed? Is that what you're saying?

Yes! That is what I'm saying! And yet...

But that's the same post where you said the two quotes above! Look them over again!

1) "if during the dream you can pass any or all of those four corollaries [...] then you're certainly lucid"
2) "Of course you can prove to yourself during the dream that you are lucid, with [...] confirmations like those four corollaries."

These quotes legitimately make it unclear to me what your position is!

No, they don't!

Note the words "during the dream" inserted in there (even back then I was careful about including them).

Those corollaries certainly work fine for lucid confirmation during the dream. But they are useless after the dream, which is where this thread, and true proof that you were lucid, is centered. I don't know how many different ways I can say this: proof that you were lucid comes after you have woken up... if you truly were lucid during the dream, you will know it, during the dream; and you will remember it, lucidly, upon waking, as a normal, easy to recall, recent conscious moment. If you were not lucid but were dreaming about being lucid, you will likely not know it during the dream (because the dream is about being lucid), even if you also dreamed about confirming the criteria, but can confirm upon waking that, thanks to how you remember the dream, you may not have been lucid (i.e., the dream fades quickly, just as a NLD might).

I could try to understand your meaning better by going over the posts again, but I think it will be faster to just ask you directly:

It may be faster, for you, but I highly recommend rereading the actual posts, especially with the consideration that there were some posts before #57. But we're here, so:

Question 1) Let's say that you suddenly find yourself in what might be a dream. You remember the below 4 criteria, and start checking whether they're all true:

Now let's say that you've found all 4 criteria to be true. Is that sufficient to prove to you, in that moment, that you are lucid?

Yes it is... in that moment.

Now, here's where it can get hazy: if you are dreaming about being lucid, your non-lucid DC self will be fully convinced that it is lucid. But all is not lost:

This is a "you had to be there" sort of thing, but be assured that that conviction is far different from the actual conviction you will have when truly lucid; the difference can be easily noticed, upon waking, when comparing the two memories.

Bottom line: if you are lucid, the criteria work just fine as confirmation for something you already know; if you are not lucid, the criteria are simply plot devices in the narrative in which your DC "you" is participating, during the dream.

Question 2) Now forget the scenario above, and pretend there's some other time, a week later say, where you just woke up. You have the feeling that you just exited a dream. So you think back, and remember a point in your dream where you checked all 4 of the criteria above, and they all passed. Of course, it's always possible your memory is faulty, but as much as you can remember, you checked the 4 criteria, and they really did pass (i.e. as much as you can remember, you really did know the dream objects would disappear, you really did know that physical laws need not apply, etc.). Is this sufficient to prove to you, now having awoken, that you were lucid in the dream?

No, it is not.

I would never define my lucidity based on fading memories of doing things like confirming those criteria. That, in fact, was pretty much the point of the treatise. Proof doesn't come from the content of the dream (especially if you must struggle to remember it), but in the quality of its memory: A true LD will be a part of your memory, of your conscious experience, and you will be able to remember that you were lucid without needing to refer to the narrative itself. [This is likely another "you have to be there" bit that likely requires much more explanation, I know, but time and space aren't allowing it, this time.]

Thank you! I legitimately want to clear up confusion on your position on this!

I hope so, because it sure feels like I'm being tested.

I think I went into this at some length on the thread (several times, in fact), so if I'm still failing to get my point across, I do hope you'll go back and browse the thread. I also think that if you tried to look at what I'm saying more simply, you might be less confused. I am not a complex person, by any measure, and generally I say things as simply as possible... unfortunately, I also have a bad habit of trying to incorporate other people's thoughts with my own, as I did with Ctharlhie's post #57, and that can complicate things!

Originally Posted by DawnEye11

A small change can make a huge difference though. Don't worry. It was when you talked about retelling the dream and not being able to recall a lucid that stuck out to me more anyways. I was honestly afraid to continue reading those huge blocks of texts which is why I was hoping for the condensed version.

Sometimes, unfortunately, huge blocks are necessary.

I think this is where level of lucidity would come in as discussed in other threads.You could clear all 3 but have very little waking life memory. Its the waking life memory that takes the cake in the end. With no waking life memory you wont be aware its a dream or be aware its a dream and have completely different waking life memory.So this is how i see it. With very little you can be aware but still be immersed in the dream. With only a tiny bit of waking life memory lost you can be close to full lucidity or fully lucid and just happened to forget because you didn't care to remember in the end or distractions. Lastly there is fully lucid with full waking life memory. Although clear waking life memory is important it doesn't mean that you weren't lucid because you didn't ask yourself a list of waking life memory questions. For the most part when you wake up and think about/write the dream you can see signs that tell you whether you were or were not.

I think you're confusing different aspects of memory here.

Though I'm not a fan of levels of lucidity (I don't go much beyond "mediocre" and "full-on" as levels myself), your point about awareness during the dream is sound, and makes good sense. But:

In terms of confidently remembering a LD after you have woken up, which is the point of this thread: You will tend to remember a lucid of any level upon waking as a waking-life consciousness event, because all lucids, no matter how weak, are by definition waking-life consciousness events. So, even if you had no access to memory during a low-level LD, you will very likely still have little trouble remembering the experience upon waking.

About the only exception to this I can think of is that if, after you've been LD'ing for quite a while and LD's aren't all quite the same "Oh Wow!" experience as the first few were, regardless of time or content, then you might just start forgetting some low-level lucids, just as you discard disinteresting waking-life consciousness moments as they pass. But I'm not sure that matters here.

Venryx & DawnEye11:

I hope all this made some sense, and did more to clarify than to muddle. I guess the tl;dr: here is that this thread is about confirming to yourself, after you are awake, that you had a LD, and those criteria, though certainly useful during a LD, are pretty much meaningless, proof-wise, after you've woken up.