Why you should (pretend to) believe in the astral/dream plane.

[Ctharlhie]

I believe that one of the greatest limitations in lucid dreaming is the modern clinical view we seem to take with the dream. We neatly partition our nice little concepts; dream characters, unconscious, dream scene. Enough I say! If you believe your dreams to be the accumulated psychic crud of your day with assorted random images then don't be surprised when your lucids are short, vague and confusing. You want to go to the battle of Troy? Believe you are travelling through time and space to get there, don't 'change the dream scene' and interact with 'DCs', actually go there and take part in the event. You may find your experiences much more engaging.

[Linkzelda]

I agree, even though some people like to conform to the practical side of lucid dreaming, eventually, when they become used to it, especially with shared dreaming, their views tend to change to where they are open to the astral/dream plane. Right now, I'm attempting shared dreaming with my friend Alyzarin, and we're making good progress doing it just between the two of us without using a sub-forum or anything. (Sorry if that's off-topic, but I am becoming lucid more frequently to an extent). I think the reason why some people do not want to indulge in that mentality of pretending is because mental barriers might still be apparent. And some people don't like to get into the metaphysical aspects like frequencies, vibrations, etc. Which is kind of disappointing, since the experiences of the dreaming/astral plane (I believe in it) are phenomenal. I think another reason why people are afraid to attempt to pretend is that they don't have someone they could really trust. I've seen people try to be friendly with others, but most of the time, they're still afraid. I think it's important that for one to be tempted to believe in the astral/dream plane, they should find a friend they can rely (I'm lucky enough to have Alyzarin attempt it with me). I also believe that if one applies a mindset that there are infinite amount of planes, and time is merely a limited perception, it can augment the creativity that's been repressed in their unconscious. Having a friend (in my opinion) really helps in developing a gradual and increasing belief of the dream/astral plane. Not many people think about the emotional side of it as well, especially when one wants to communicate with their friend when they could never meet each other in reality. Helping a friend find the darkness within them and helping them learn to control it, while learning that you can develop from this experience as well is very beneficial, and it can increase the chance of lucidity. Since I've been attempting shared dreaming Alyzarin, I've been getting somewhat better at WILDing and recall as well. Also, the fact that one starts to believe in the dream/astral plane, and have someone they can form a relationship with (which is hard to find, but worth sustaining), they can do common things in real life in an uncommon way. I believe that one can understand another person's pain, sorrow, hatred, love, etc. in the dreaming plane and beyond that this world cannot even begin to manifest in its limited perception. Thanks for mentioning this Ctharlhie, hope others become enticed to believe this, because it is worth it in the end. The reason why is that if one only believes in the practical side of lucid dreaming, there is a limit in how much they can do. They will grow tired of the typical things like flying, fighting huge monsters, etc., the common child-like desires of adventure and excitement. But if one steps it up a notch in being open-minded, they will find that doing it with another person they can relate to, and to feel their energy, it is truly an amazing thing. To be honest, I think me and Alyzarin are probably twin souls because of her belief in finding me and me finding her in the dreaming plane. And once we've made full contact, once we've felt our dream hands come in contact, it will be a phenomenal and positive experience that will possibly change our lives here. Of course, people aren't swayed by this mentality because it breeds escapism of this realm, but if one can control their urges of this escapism, there is indeed no harm mentally or physically that can be done if one pretends to believe in the dream/astral plane. To even instil more idealism, I honestly believe that if we're confined in such a small planet, insignificant to the rest, believing in the astral/dream plane will allow one to eradicate such feelings of incompetence and feeling worthless. This is my opinion of course, but I believe that no matter how much one tries to believe the practical side of lucid dreaming, there will be events where it convinces one that there may be infinite planes and infinite possibilities to act in those planes. Sorry for going on a wild tangent, but that's what happens when I think about the astral/dreaming plane and shared dreaming with a friend that could be a potential twin soul. The sooner we accept our immortality, we will at last find our peace. But I'll stop there before I make this go to BD :x

[ShadowOfSelf]

I'll be honest... i'm one of them people, I side with the whole 'meh, astral is probably just dreaming' though i'm very open minded and would never say it doesnt exist, I just thought i'd get to a good point in my dreaming practises and then seek out what more there is, if there is. But, your post has skewed my viewpoint... Why limit my experience now to what I subjectively think is happening, wouldn't it make my dreams so much more powerful, longer, dramatic, REAL, if I just took on the view point that it IS real, which on some level it maybe! and it already feels more awesome and motivating lol, but that's what matters isn't it? not whether its actually REAL, but if you value it like it is REAL. Thanks for giving me something to think about.

[elucid]

From my side, I personally don't like to pretend, or believe. It is not that much fun for me, I like to see things as they are, you don't have to go to the extra length of believing in it. And as I understand, in dreams you should be able to fulfill any desire/wish you have so why believe in things.

[Alyzarin]

I believe that one of the greatest limitations in lucid dreaming is the modern clinical view we seem to take with the dream. We neatly partition our nice little concepts; dream characters, unconscious, dream scene. Enough I say! If you believe your dreams to be the accumulated psychic crud of your day with assorted random images then don't be surprised when your lucids are short, vague and confusing. You want to go to the battle of Troy? Believe you are travelling through time and space to get there, don't 'change the dream scene' and interact with 'DCs', actually go there and take part in the event. You may find your experiences much more engaging. Your dreams are limited only by your beliefs on what can and cannot happen in them, period. Ergo, don't believe in anything. Link and I agreed to try shared dreaming, and almost immediately we've been having experiences that match up. Is it due to an astral plane? Hell if I know. It's pretty cool, though.

[ShadowOfSelf]

From my side, I personally don't like to pretend, or believe. It is not that much fun for me, I like to see things as they are, you don't have to go to the extra length of believing in it. And as I understand, in dreams you should be able to fulfill any desire/wish you have so why believe in things. Good point, though I guess believing it's real on another dimension/reality/plane would just help the dreamer feel more accomplished, rather than just waking up and thinking it was all a dream, leaving them desires/wishes fulfilled and allowing progress to be made in other areas of the dreamers path. Am I right or missing the point? Edit: after reading Alyzarins reply, I guess believing in nothing would be the better route, leaving the path clear for the truth to guide. I guess I'll stick with my op then - "but that's what matters isn't it? not whether its actually REAL, but if you value it like it is REAL." I like that, I value my dreams more now just thinking like that, they are real to me.

[elucid]

leaving them desires/wishes fulfilled and allowing progress to be made in other areas of the dreamers path. Am I right or missing the point? Yes, depends on what the person's desires are. I do not really worry about the real factor in dreams, just the curious part and the fun part. But if the person's desires requires those things, then it would be odd to not do those things because then you are not headed that way.

[Linkzelda]

Good point, though I guess believing it's real on another dimension/reality/plane would just help the dreamer feel more accomplished, rather than just waking up and thinking it was all a dream, leaving them desires/wishes fulfilled and allowing progress to be made in other areas of the dreamers path. Am I right or missing the point? I don't think you're missing anything with that. In my opinion, I think you're right. When one just thinks of it was a dream, sure they can feel motivated and accomplished if they become lucid, but that has it's limits. When one wakes up knowing they've become lucid, they're excited, but eventually when they get used to it, there's a peak of this excitement. Though most would be satisfied with this peak, their intentions will start to become bland. I know I'm not experienced in LDing at all, but I'm sure some experienced Lucid dreamers do have a certain point where they just want to take a break. They know that they can become lucid, but it doesn't become that necessary for them, because as years progress, more burdens and responsibilities of this reality start to tie in with their chances of having lucids almost daily. If you believe it was more than just a dream, it increases one's confidence exponentially, because they're allowing spiritual connection to be applied with dreaming. And like I've said with me and Alyzarin attempting shared dreaming, it is more than dreaming to us (at least it is for me, I don't know about her, but I'm sure she's swayed in this same thought process). To look forward to a bonding with the person who you like and can relate to, to feel their dream body touch yours, to feel the euphoria of acceptance that does not require the bias that society places on us to make us more selfish and cynical. I may be ambitious in saying these things, but it's believing that I will meet my friend that can make you wake up feeling even more positive than what a lucid dream can give you. (that's what I think is important if you want to believe more than it being a dream, having someone you can go to, or a small group of people you can trust). I know lucid dreaming can make one motivate and have the same effect of feeling positive for days, weeks, or even months, but it ends up being a brief moment of spontaneity that merely becomes a passing reprieve, and when one gets a dry spell (I'm sure we all have our bad days of LDing, it makes one less motivated (unless they have extreme diligence and persistence, but there's only so much force one can exert upon themselves to have a consistent motivation to LD despite knowing they have the risk of not having many for a certain period of time). This is excluding natural lucid dreamers, but even those types of people lucky enough to be given that ability to just know they are dreaming without much effort, they have their limits. When you start believing more than it being a dream, and having someone you know that can be a companion/partner/lover/ whatever, even when you are experiencing moments where it feels like attemping LDing isn't worth it for a certain time, the other person has the persistence in helping the other become lucid in their dream. It becomes a trade-off, but this trading isn't one-sided to where if one person doesn't do this, the other won't do that. The fact that the other person has the potential to help one become lucid creates this passion that doesn't need to be consistently applied and become a burden anymore. Do you see what I mean? When you make a connection with the person you're sharing dreams with, it isn't saturated with selfish intentions anymore, because acts of altruism and social competence in dreaming has a much stronger effect to our nature to be gregarious. And being gregarious in our dreams, we know that we are not alone in our attempt in having lucid dreams. It's hard to explain without myself sounding like I'm insane or crazy, I guess for one to believe this, they have to find a friend that is willing to try it out as well. I'm emphasizing the fact of finding a partner or small group of people because the burden starts to degrade because doing it alone, and believing that they can only do it alone causes more stress compared to doing it with someone you know you can respect as an individual. Again, it's the social aspect that I believe is one of many factors that can aid in believing it is real. It's fake confidence that will end up being real because it's already inserted in your schemata that it is real. I also find myself less cynical of the world when I believe that I will meet my friend in my dreams.(almost less cynical, but I need to get better with finding Alyzarin to find an inner calm). This may be a mindset to be laughed at, but knowing that when you find each others energy signatures, and you can stare at that person's eyes and KNOW that it is them, that it isn't a figment of your imagination, that's when things start getting serious. Your mind doesn't become a trickster in challenging whether or not you're dreaming anymore, you use it as a motivation to conquer it, and you will find that your superego (sorry for using psychological terms) will start to realize that the id will not have to be repressed as because the ego starts to become more accepting of it, and when you go into the other person's id and start to accept theirs, there's this sense of balance. You start to accept your mortality, your weakness, your strengths in this realm, and appreciate it more because you know that when you go to sleep, you take full advantage of the freedom of going beyond thinking that dreaming is merely a limited collection of what is stored into your unconscious. You will start to believe more and more and more that the person you're devoting time to sharing dreams with is more than just a body satisfying your needs, you start to exhibit a higher and positive energy that can elevate you to more planes (I'm kind of paraphrasing basic astral stuff ) Edit: There are people who want a lukewarm life, an average life, so they don't have to get into the metaphysical concepts, but not everyone is going to conform to that for the rest of their lives, especially in a dreaming forum. And I don't want to turn old not being able to LD with the shorter REM periods that I will (slightly) have. That would suck so much that I could've spent my youth training to become lucid regularly, and going beyond the dreaming plane. I don't know about the older people, but when you start realizing that your incompetence to the world starts to increase, it would be nice knowing you can think about something else other than living a life of regret of seeing younger people living their lives, when you can appreciate that they have the right to live it out while you transcend somewhere even better. This might be a foolish path to go towards, but it's fun experimenting anyway.

[MadMonkey]

I totally agree. Dreams are just plane fun. They are the one thing were you can do what ever you want and no body can tell you its not real. I don't know if all the dream plane metaphysics stuff is real but what difference does it make. Its the experience that counts. Dreams aren't even "real" to begin with yet we experience them ever night. So why not share it with your friends. You will have some amazing experiences with them regardless what you believe.

[Hukif]

Speak for yourself guys, I am not a spiritual person and I don't want to take a break off lucid dreaming. Way too many things, experiments and ways to improve my waking life through them to take breaks, plus its always so much fun. No such thing as a peak.

[Linkzelda]

But you can only do so much in waking life. You can become anything in dreams, and you can do everything in dreams, but you can't apply everything to waking life. I just mentioned a peak because the infinite amount of things you can do in a dream will not be able to sublimate in waking life.

[Hukif]

Maybe not apply everythign from dreams to waking, but I can definetely apply everything from waking to dreams if I want to, which makes it an even better experience. And for that you don't really need to be spiritual, it can help and it can be done but its not needed.