Prove Lding exists!

**enak101** · 03-04-2012 09:10 AM

My friend thinks that lucid dreaming isn't real or 'it isn't possible to the degree people claim.'

I've had two brief low level lucid dreams so far so I know it exists to a degree, I also assume it's possible to have incredibly vivid lucid ones as there is a massive community of people doing it...

I heard Stephen Laberge 'proved' it by moving his eyes in a set pattern eg. up,left,up,down,right etc. Does that work..? Is that how REM works? Does moving your eyes left in your LD make your eyes go left in the real world? Is there anyway to prove it?

You need to be unconscious to be sleeping.
You can't be conscious and unconscious.

That's what he said. I can't find a way to convince him

. I'm rambling on but it's odd.

**Sea07** · 03-04-2012 09:39 AM

Well I don't know much about the science of sleep and dreaming and I, much like you, have had only low level encounters with lucidity. Tell your friend however that he is wrong, you are SUBconscious when you sleep not UNconscious and lucid dreaming is not being conscious, but being aware. See if that makes him think mate.
Cheers

**enak101** · 03-04-2012 09:53 AM

Hmm, he said it didn't make him think

.

That doesn't make me think.
Sleep = unconsciousness.
Subconscious = part of the mind
I don't see his point.
Subconscious controls the little things, and dreaming.

I don't really care but I'm mostly interested in the REM eye control.

**Choi** · 03-04-2012 11:56 AM

If you lay still with closed eyes and lose consciousness you are sleeping, but if you lay still with closed eyes and are conscious you are meditating.

Don't try to convince your friend it's impossible - Just tell him to watch the matrix and if he don't want to learn or believe you, that's his loss.

"Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself" - Morpheus

**silver2k** · 03-04-2012 12:16 PM

Well, LDing is scientifically proven, and has he seen this forum? It's not like all these people are in some massive conspiracy or something

**Matte87** · 03-04-2012 12:56 PM

Yeah, like this huge place filled with stories and people are just all made up. I bet a few more threads like this one would exist if it wasn't real. But yes you can move your eyes according to a specific pattern in a dream and your eyes will move under your eyelids. They also confirmed that the subject was dreaming by checking the brain waves.

**TheSmooze** · 03-04-2012 01:20 PM

Well, I have to admit I did doubt a little for a while, but then I had my first one a few months ago after a week or so of trying. It wasn't much of one, but I was aware during a dream. That was proof enough for me. Unfortunately, if he doesn't believe it's possible, the only way to prove it is by showing him the various papers on the subject, and it sounds like he's already convinced himself that they were fabricated. It's sad that he'll never see it, but in the end it's ultimately his loss, not yours.

**Nexi** · 03-04-2012 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by enak101

Is that how REM works? Does moving your eyes left in your LD make your eyes go left in the real world?

This is just my theory, but I think it's because your body can't paralyze your eyes. The same goes with the rest of your body, if you weren't paralyzed inside a dream, you would be acting it out. (Also why when you wake up to sleep paralysis, mostly all you can move is your eyes)

**Patrick** · 03-04-2012 02:40 PM

Here you go!

http://www.culturacientifica.org/textosudc/sueno_01.pdf

Your friend should read this.

Talks about theories of consciousness and how lucid dreaming can occur due to shifting states of consciousness during sleep.

EDIT: and for those of you who don't want to read a massive review, here's a nice little diagram from the paper

Spoiler for figure:

**Mancon** · 03-04-2012 05:30 PM

Yes, LaBerge did prove it multiple ways. I recommend Googling how he proved it and then showing it to your friend. As others have said, this whole site it proof. If it wasn't real there wouldnt be thousands do members and dream journals here.

**elucid** · 03-05-2012 12:37 AM

You can tell him the methods of lucid dreaming so he can lucid dream for himself and see if that is proof enough.

Good luck.

**Hukif** · 03-05-2012 01:12 AM

Um... who told him that dreaming is being unconcious...?
Seriously, if you need to be unconcious then you can't dream either, since thats a sort of conciousness, one you are not aware of. Being lucid is just becoming aware of said dreams.
Unless he wants to argue that dreaming is impossible lol

**gab** · 03-05-2012 01:56 AM

Sounds like he doesn't want to believe. The only way is to have him experience it.

Ask him to try the simplest technique - Have him sit on a bed just before he goes to sleep, look at his hands palms up, while repeating: 'Tonight when I'm dreaming, I'll look at my hands and realize I'm dreaming', until he gets sleepy. This should be his last thought before drifting off.

He has nothing to lose and so much to gain.

**lily** · 03-05-2012 02:59 AM

There are plenty of people who have experienced LD's, if your friend wants to willfully ignore that fact and pretend like they ALL are lying about it (really why would we lie?) then there's nothing you will be able to do to prove it. LD'ing is not something you can externally verify. I do not even think the idea of a person controlling their eye movement is much proof, since those movements could potentially occur randomly during a person's sleep.