Thread: Dreams without dreamers?

Hi, I've recently begun trying to get into lucid dreaming, but I've a bit of a problem - nearly always, I'm not actually in my dreams. I observe them, as in I have a visual and aural perspective on them, but I don't have my own form, or thoughts, and rarely even feelings. It always has struck me as a bit odd when people talk about doing things in their dreams as though it's totally normal, because that basically never is the case for me.
Is it somewhat common for people to be simply observers of their dreams? And is there a good way to become lucid in dreams where one doesn't exist to do reality checks or anything?

Okay, when we observe others, we also don't look like ourselves when in real. For example you see yourself in a mirror and you look different. It's also known that, we do and think about things differently than in real. Feelings are different as well. You might have been as a 2nd party in the dream. And what i mean 2nd party is that you are away from your real dream figure and observing.

It's not just one dream, though, it's how basically all my dreams are. I am just not there, first party or no.

Well you don't need to do a reality check to become lucid. If you're observing the dream but you aren't physically there I think it's still possible to have thoughts within the dream, such as thoughts about what you're seeing, etc. So I would think that if you realized that you were dreaming even without being there that you could maybe make yourself there once lucid or still even just change what you see to your liking. And to become lucid you would have to use the DILD method I guess.. which is to realize your dreaming in the dream, which I think would still be possible even if you aren't there.

The term is "3rd party" even though 2nd party would make more sense. It comes from writting styles. 1st party, is writen with "I" statements.

"I ran for my life!" = 1st party.

3rd party is written as if you are watching a movie.

"It was a cold stormy night and the detective had fallen asleep in his car" = 3rd person.

The LD community has just adapted the same terminolgy. Oddly as far as I know there is no 2nd person (but maybe I missed it in school).

So you are having 3rd person dreams, which is as common as any other kind of dream. After you have learned to get lucid you can learn to shift between 1st or 3rd person. How, is not important until you get there.
How are you to get lucid, then? I recomend that every one have a mental RC they do when they do other RCs. Counting your fingers will not come up in a dream if you never dream about being one of the charectors. A mental RC is an awareness trick. Stop and honestly examine your surroundings and tell yourself how you know it is not a dream. Look for shimmering air, objects that are moving around slightly and if any words or clocks are around, study them. This kind of RC should become a way of life.
Next thing you know, you will start questioning in a dream and when telling yourself how you know it is not a dream, you may go "see the sky is yellow, so I know,,, what? wait,,, where the heck is my body?,,, I am dreaming!"
That is my advice anyways.

This happens to me sometimes. It would feel like I am watching some else's dream. One of the first dreams I had when I started dream journaling was a cartoon dream. It was as though I was outside the dream watching Cartoon Network.

Originally Posted by sivason

I recomend that every one have a mental RC they do when they do other RCs. Counting your fingers will not come up in a dream if you never dream about being one of the charectors. A mental RC is an awareness trick. Stop and honestly examine your surroundings and tell yourself how you know it is not a dream. Look for shimmering air, objects that are moving around slightly and if any words or clocks are around, study them. This kind of RC should become a way of life.
Next thing you know, you will start questioning in a dream and when telling yourself how you know it is not a dream, you may go "see the sky is yellow, so I know,,, what? wait,,, where the heck is my body?,,, I am dreaming!"

A question about that. Should that be done after your RCs, considering that when you do your RC's you have to assume that you ARE dreaming?

Originally Posted by sivason

So you are having 3rd person dreams, which is as common as any other kind of dream. After you have learned to get lucid you can learn to shift between 1st or 3rd person. How, is not important until you get there.
How are you to get lucid, then? I recomend that every one have a mental RC they do when they do other RCs. Counting your fingers will not come up in a dream if you never dream about being one of the charectors. A mental RC is an awareness trick. Stop and honestly examine your surroundings and tell yourself how you know it is not a dream. Look for shimmering air, objects that are moving around slightly and if any words or clocks are around, study them. This kind of RC should become a way of life.
Next thing you know, you will start questioning in a dream and when telling yourself how you know it is not a dream, you may go "see the sky is yellow, so I know,,, what? wait,,, where the heck is my body?,,, I am dreaming!"
That is my advice anyways.

It sounds like a good idea... the biggest problem I see there is, though, I don't have thoughts in such dreams. At all. I'm not sure how to change that...

Tesseract:

But you do have thoughts; they're just a bit more global, less centered on your self and more on the world your dreaming mind has prepared for you ... But it's still all you, all your thoughts. Wait, that made like zero sense; let me try again:

Here's the bit you must remember: no matter how removed "you" are from the action in your dreams, no matter what the perspective or format, everything that's going on -- nearby or in the distance -- is a projection of your self, of your own dreaming mind.

Hold onto that, and it won't matter whether your dream story is unfolding in first or third person (and no, Sivason, there is no 2nd person, because the 2nd person is always the one the to whom tha stuff of the plot is being said or happening; the literary mirror, as it were). What matters is that you are self-aware, and know that this is a dream, your dream, and when that happens, the fun begins, regardless of perspective.

In fact, having all your dreams run in third person (watching a movie) format can be a boon to a LD'er, because he is not constrained by the weight of a dream character "body.". In other words, when you're lucid you can get right to controlling or altering the dream content without concern for what it'll do to your dream body; physics is less important too. You're actually at a great starting point for exploration, because a major constraint is missing!

And finally, be assured that your "condition" will have no impact on becoming lucid, because the real prep for successful LD'ing happens during waking life, and your dreaming perspective holds no sway there.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Here's the bit you must remember: no matter how removed "you" are from the action in your dreams, no matter what the perspective or format, everything that's going on -- nearby or in the distance -- is a projection of your self, of your own dreaming mind.

Hold onto that, and it won't matter whether your dream story is unfolding in first or third person (and no, Sivason, there is no 2nd person, because the 2nd person is always the one the to whom tha stuff of the plot is being said or happening; the literary mirror, as it were). What matters is that you are self-aware, and know that this is a dream, your dream, and when that happens, the fun begins, regardless of perspective.

Hmm... that's a very helpful way of looking at it. I shall try to make use of that perspective.
Thank you!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Tesseract:


Hold onto that, and it won't matter whether your dream story is unfolding in first or third person (and no, Sivason, there is no 2nd person, because the 2nd person is always the one the to whom tha stuff of the plot is being said or happening; the literary mirror, as it were). What matters is that you are self-aware, and know that this is a dream, your dream, and when that happens, the fun begins, regardless of perspective.

*****



And finally, be assured that your "condition" will have no impact on becoming lucid, because the real prep for successful LD'ing happens during waking life, and your dreaming perspective holds no sway there.

1st) Thanks Sageous! That makes sense, and the missing person style was always a bit of a question mark for me. I hope you do not mind if I defer to you on all topics relating to the written word.

2nd) I agree that the prep work or training you do while awake can resolve any issues you face while dreaming. By training I mean building awareness and some mental skills in waking life. It could range from something other members are calling ADA, all day awareness (I bet there is a tutorial up) or any meditation or visualization skill. Maybe get a MP3 of guided meditation and screw around with it to start your brain visualizing in a new way.

Originally Posted by mdspencer68

A question about that. Should that be done after your RCs, considering that when you do your RC's you have to assume that you ARE dreaming?

I would not worry to much about that. I was not taught to assume I was dreaming during an RC. I am sure you were told that or read it, and I am sure it is fine. I think a better mind set is to honestly use the RCs to make sure wether it is a dream or not. Take the attitude that you do not know 100% and need proof before you will go back to believing you are awake. That is about the same idea as yours, but I do not pre-suppose to know the answer as to am I awake, when I RC.
When I do any RC it is with the honest intent to make sure I am awake. I do this by looking carefully for things I think will be in a dream. I search for instability in the visuals or I scan my memory to see if I am all confused and do not remember how I got there. If something like that is observed, I have the first proof that I may not be awake. Then I look for things that are almost proof I am awake, like being able to observe fine detail and the nature of my thought being orderly.
That is just how this one guy looks at RCs. Develop your own routine eventually. Follow a tutorial at first, but eventually adapt a style of your own.

Originally Posted by sivason

I would not worry to much about that. I was not taught to assume I was dreaming during an RC. I am sure you were told that or read it, and I am sure it is fine. I think a better mind set is to honestly use the RCs to make sure wether it is a dream or not. Take the attitude that you do not know 100% and need proof before you will go back to believing you are awake. That is about the same idea as yours, but I do not pre-suppose to know the answer as to am I awake, when I RC.
When I do any RC it is with the honest intent to make sure I am awake. I do this by looking carefully for things I think will be in a dream. I search for instability in the visuals or I scan my memory to see if I am all confused and do not remember how I got there. If something like that is observed, I have the first proof that I may not be awake. Then I look for things that are almost proof I am awake, like being able to observe fine detail and the nature of my thought being orderly.
That is just how this one guy looks at RCs. Develop your own routine eventually. Follow a tutorial at first, but eventually adapt a style of your own.

Actually the first part is exactly what I do.

Originally Posted by sivason

The LD community has just adapted the same terminolgy. Oddly as far as I know there is no 2nd person (but maybe I missed it in school).

2nd person would be a description by someone who was actually there but not the focus of the event. Such as a witness describing a crime.

You can do reality checks still. The dream is you, the division between you and the dream is illusion. What you see to be you, is the dreams eye observing itself. Your reality check can be reminding yourself that if your watching the dream that your dreaming.

You can always project yourself, the dreams eye into another object you are observing in the dream. Or you can think of it as watching TV and then you will find yourself in your living room on the couch. You can also pretend your flying and then fly in.

For ages I would just have what I called "third person" dreams, where I was merely observing the dream, quite often like a film at a cinema, sometimes featuring people I knew but never myself.

After keeping a dream diary for two months I began to have more and more "first person" dreams, until this became the regular, eventually culminating in my first proper lucid dream recently.