Is non-lucid control...really dream control?

[Zoth]

After reading a reply from Mancon in another topic regarding lucidity, I started wondering: Is Dream control really dream control even if you're not lucid? The fact is that control to me seems like a intentional action. You wouldn't say you were in control of your limbs if they acted without you commanding them too. So, if you're not (which happens many times) doing anything but reacting to the world around you, are you really controlling it? On the other hand, maybe we indeed control the dream when we're not lucid because we are we, we just lack some brain activity like self-reflection, memory. But once again, if we don't reflect on our actions, are we really in control of our actions? Where's the conscious element? So, what are your thoughts ?

[thebigm]

I remember as a child (not knowing what lucid dreams were), being able to change the dreamscape if in a nightmare. I would have to run until I had a few seconds to spare, like running behind a tree, close my eyes and count to 3 and then it would change. This happened a lot when I was younger. Prior to experiencing my first lucid dream this still happened occasionally, I was able to consciously change the dream without ever becoming lucid by using the same technique. Or even still, intentionally wake myself up from it. All of this wihout ever becoming lucid. In fact even now I sometimes intentionally wake myself up from dreams that aren't lucid dreams or change the dream without becoming lucid, which is really annoying. So to answer your point, I think it is possible to have some level of control whilst not lucid. I think we experience dreams differently as children and maybe precode some stuff in our brains that we use later in life. Or our dreaming selves are different to our waking selves. The amount of stuff that goes on in a dream every night that should make us go lucid but doesn't is staggering. So maybe in our dreams we have different ways of dealing with situations that when we wake up we think, "I controlled that" but we didn't really. I'm waffling now. Cheers.

[Signet]

Non-lucid dream control, as you call it, is something that has ben present in my dreams for as long as I can remember. (I tell you this to say that I'm quite familiar with the idea.) As for your question, I might ask another in response: How much of the day are you actively conscious of what you do/did? In other words, do you not "autopilot" through various parts of your day? Of course you do! Everybody does (sadly), and I think it's safe to say that those thoughts are conscious thoughts, just not ones that we take into account while we carry them out. In the same way, we can do amazing things in our dreams and it will still a conscious effort; the fact that we are not aware of being asleep has nothing to do with it. You always "command your limbs to move", but you don't always keep in mind that you are awake or dreaming. Sorry if that came off a bit confusingly; it's getting a bit too late for me to be doing this.

[paigeyemps]

I agree with Signet. It also makes me think about the things we do not really think about (did that even make sense lol). In the same sense, much of our nonlucids carry on in their own paths without us really thinking about it, though we still have some sort of control over it, and we just think it's all normal and brush it off. So it's still kind of similar to autopilot in real life. I am getting confused with myself now. I'm just gonna... yeah this is interesting.

[Zoth]

Hmm, interesting replies. You do have a point there Signet, we aren't really aware of our actions during most part of the days. But we could we say we are making a conscious effort when we act in a dream? Dreams are not like real life where you wake up, decide to go outside. Most of them seem to have a path or a scenario already presented to you. You are doing this, you are doing that, X character shows up, etc. My point is, even if you're in autopilot when you move your limbs, you can consciously stop. In a dream, unless you become lucid, you can't really stop the scene. But the situation described by thebigm makes perfectly sense, I also remember taking drastic measures to escape my nightmares. But once again, is it really control or more a conditioned response?