The Oneiric Mind?

[Earthatic]

This is my first post on these forums, so please bear with me. When it comes to creating dreams, I can't help but feel that the 'unconscious' mind (that is responsible for the illusion) has a will of it's own. You can even communicate with it while it comes up with it's own responses to things, which can be startlingly appropriate. It's like it uses your own experiences as a reference, but has it's own motives and purposes. I'm perfectly aware that many of you have noticed this as well, but what I am curious about is why it responds in the way that it does. With it's interdependent nature, what makes it tick? Right now, I have been experimenting with certain states of mind (thoughts and emotions) to see how it reacts. Feelings of desire, uncertainty, frustration, hope, fear and enjoyment (or certain combinations) all effect what is going to happen. Even thinking about this causality seems to change the outcome, which is kinda funny. Chemical balances and hormones seem to play a role, too. I want to know what you guys have learned about this.

[howtoluciddream]

I remember reading a bit about the unconscious on one of my old psychology books and it would describe the conscious and unconscious state of mind as an iceberg, with the only the tip being what we're conscious about. And the problem is that we know very little about what's under the iceberg, even these days.

[Earthatic]

It should be studied more. Here we have a great tool for simulated (un)reality, but it's just so darn awkward to use for this purpose.

[Oceandrop]

Maybe you can ask the unconscious mind why it responds in the way that it does? You just need a good Dream Recall But to be serious I don't know much about that stuff, and just read on the german wikipedia a bit, because I am curious to learn more about it @ psychology and even found out that leading neuroscientists ehh yes hard to explain for me x) I always thought the unconscious mind was hard too prove like lucid dreaming was before they got EEG and that stuff, but they actually proved that there are unconscious processes that precede conscious processes in a certain way pretty cool, at least that was new news for me that they actually proved that now.

[dutchraptor]

Unlike the conscious mind the subconscious is entirely based on expectations from what it has seen and learned already. The conscious is capable of twisting expectations and reasoning to make up complex ideas and plots etc. Here is an example... You are in a dream and on a large street in the city. A witch was following you right before you turned the corner. Your conscious mind is thinking: "I just saw that which before she turned the corner she will pass by any minute now" At the same time hidden deep down your subconscious is thinking: "Hey a city street, usually when I see this a car drives past" So instead of a witch a car drives past. What you see here is that you thought something would happen but it didn't. There are many reasons for this but what they all share in common is that you weren't consciously expecting it while it the subconscious was only doing what it was asked. The subconscious was acting purely on its usual randomness just creating dream fragments loosely based on its expectations but because it was so different from what you thought would happen it seems like the subconscious is an entirely different entity. Almost any unusual dream can be analyzed far enough until we see that what at first seemed random may have actually had quite a logical origin.

[Earthatic]

dutchraptor, Huh? You just said "the subconscious is entirely based on expectations" and then said "The subconscious was acting purely on its usual randomness just creating dream fragments loosely based on its expectations" Loosely and entirely... interesting, lol. I really don't think it's that simple, but it is clear that it is influenced by expectation, among other things. In this case, I think it would be important to acknowledge the different effects that non-lucid and lucid-dreaming states have on the insular cortex. Oceandrop, I have asked! It said "I am motivated by you." Clearly, almost everything can be traced back to being influenced by our own thoughts, emotions and experiences. It seems to be a complex process and hard to predict, and even trying to make a prediction will change what what will happen.

[dutchraptor]

dutchraptor, Huh? You just said "the subconscious is entirely based on expectations" and then said "The subconscious was acting purely on its usual randomness just creating dream fragments loosely based on its expectations" Loosely and entirely... interesting, lol. I really don't think it's that simple, but it is clear that it is influenced by expectation, among other things. In this case, I think it would be important to acknowledge the different effects that non-lucid and lucid-dreaming states have on the insular cortex. Oceandrop, I have asked! It said "I am motivated by you." Clearly, almost everything can be traced back to being influenced by our own thoughts, emotions and experiences. It seems to be a complex process and hard to predict, and even trying to make a prediction will change what what will happen. Sorry about that, brandon got it right. You are correct in saying that it is more complex than what I described but I was merely trying to give an example to prove a point. I just think that a large part of what causes us to see the subconscious as a separate being is that it can seem random while it is actually not. You still have to bear in mind however that the conscious and subconscious are deeply linked and cannot be truly divided like I did in my previous post. When you ask your "subconscious" a question for example, it's reply will not be solely from itself but will be created due to a number of processes. The fact that we can consciously observe what the subconscious is doing makes it look mysterious.

[Earthatic]

Wow. I can't edit my own posts? (Clearly, almost everything can be traced back to influences from our own thoughts, emotions and experiences.) & (even trying to make a prediction will change what will happen.)

[Sensei]

I think he meant loosely on your conscious expectations. Yeah, DV edit is messing up because they were under attack.

[dutchraptor]

Sorry, I meant cannot in that last sentence.

[Sensei]

This thread makes me wonder if there is an algorithm that your subconscious uses to get from your memories, mixed with the previous day, mixed with the thoughts before you go to sleep, mixed with expectations that makes a dream. But... I am just a nerd.

[dutchraptor]

I have wondered that thousands of times too, the mechanism is so complex, just like the size of unniverse it cannot be truly comprehended what exactly is happening. The moment you look at what one thing causes, you see that it makes you think differently, which in turn changes your expectations which in turn has another effect. Words cannot really describe all that is going on.

[h1nchm4n]

I posted something about this before a long time ago in a different thread, but the unconscious/subconscious are where our inner instincts lie, as animals, and as humans. This is where our "fight or flight" mentality is located, and where we desire sex and violence. (This is an instinct present in every human.) The unconscious is something we cannot control because it is the animal inside of us. The unconscious/subconscious hasn't changed since humans were born/created because we've had the natural need to struggle to survive in the past. This repetitive need to survive, find food, and be innovative with the environment around us is still present in our minds to this day, but we do not need it anymore. The unconscious is simply what keeps the human mind primitive. It is simply an out-dated part of our brain. Not literally, but figuratively (thought process-wise.) This somewhat explains why it does the things it does, but the new experiences we have throughout our lives do not resemble the experiences we have in our unconscious hereditarily (IE: things learned from inheritance from parents.) In the past, humans would fight for food, shelter, and things like that. But, now our unconscious is trying to comprehend what its like to live in a modern society, where we don't need to do these things to live. In a sense, we are domesticating our unconscious/subconscious. Eventually, our unconscious will forget what its like to fight for food/survive within the next couple hundred years, because we do not need to know these things to survive in our present environment. Currently, in modern society, we are the ones going through the changing phase. That is my view on it at least. The beginning of this post is kind of fact driven, then I just went off on a tangent of my own thoughts on the subject, so take what you will from it

[Earthatic]

h1nchm4n, I can only speak for myself, but I have noticed that events in dreams can form out of negativity. It might be due to our programmed instincts, where our brain needs this mechanism. What I mean by negativity is that you can make an event occur simply by not wanting it to occur. This is based around an issue of (major to mild) conflict, which seems to be present during certain stages of dreaming. However slight the problem/discontentment may be, it will manifest itself during a certain phase. Here are some examples: you want to eat something, but it doesn't taste the way you wanted it to; you want a situation to last longer, but then it slowly fades; something scary is chasing you, but you can't seem to escape it. I've learned to use this to my (dis)advantage by forcing my mind to consciously be apprehensive about something, but then give into it as it occurs. This is somewhat tricky when it comes to creating something you do want because you have to make your mind not want it. For instance, you might have more LD romance if you take a masochistic approach, but this is obviously counterintuitive for that reason. On the opposite side of things, I can make a problem disappear when I (honestly) stop acknowledging it as being a problem. I can, in turn, replace it with something else that I can handle. Take this with a grain of salt, though. Again, I can only speak for myself and what has worked for me, but I am hoping you have noticed this as well. This is definitely just the tip of iceberg, but it could be one important aspect that is related to problem solving (for survival purposes).

[Sensei]

I take the idea of not worrying in my dreams. I never worry what will happen. I only think that there is one possible outcome, and that is success. Instead of turning the positive into negative, just don't have negative, this might be hard at first, but I practice it at all times during waking life. It has the expectation that people are always talking of, but it still has the idea that 'the cusp' has, only things that you pay attention WO will exist. In my world there is just me and my goal. I still fail sometimes, but I am hoping to master it in dreams.

[Sensei]

"Everything requires your attention to exist" sorry misquote and no edit. :/

[Alucinor XIII]

I've wondered about this as well. Through meditation, you will find the exact same thing. Once you sit down and observe your mental processes for a while, you'll start to notice that all these thoughts and ideas that pop up aren't coming from your own deliberate will. They seem to arise all on their own. For example, while meditating and idea may pop-up seemingly completely on its own. I will simply be watching, waiting to see what happens next, and a thought about my Ex may arise, or a thought about paying my rent or about going to work the next day. A lot of the time, my conscious mind puts no input to these thoughts, They just arise on their own. I'm inclined to agree with h1nchman, to a certain degree. When meditating, I notice that the majority of these thoughts that arise on their own are negative. They have to do with fear, anxieties, regrets-- things which the mind naturally dwells on in order to correct or adjust for in the future. Its an evolutionary advantage. I've also noticed, like someone said above, that a lot of the times my dreams will be counter-active to my desires. I think that's also an evolutionary thing. I've always figured that dreams were a result of evolution, because what better way to practice hunting than in a safe, virtual environment? Its a playground for the mind.

[Alucinor XIII]

I've also noticed, like someone said above, that a lot of the times my dreams will be counter-active to my desires. I think that's also an evolutionary thing. I've always figured that dreams were a result of evolution, because what better way to practice hunting than in a safe, virtual environment? Its a playground for the mind. By automatically doing the opposite of what the conscious desires, the dream/subconscious is providing an obstacle to be overcome...practice for real life. *** (this editing issue really needs to be fixed.)