Thread: Are false lucids a sign of progress or failure

I would not call it a failure.

If you not putting emotions into your daytime RCs, then doing RCs in a dream that don't get you lucid could be a sign of that. But most of the time, it's not the RCs that get you lucid. It's the speck of awareness you get just before you get an urge to RC. That awareness get's you lucid and RC only confirms, or helps you over the speed bump.

In any case, having lucid dreaming incorporated in regular dreams is indeed a good sign, that your practice is bleeding through.

Check here, if you getting most bang for your buck from RCs. Quote from one of my older posts:

When you do any RC during day, you expect it to work, because you expect to be in a dream.

RC should start with an awareness question, something like "wow, am I dreaming?" and you believe you are. Examine your surroundings and try to find differences between waking life environment and the one you are in at that moment.

Then you RC and you fully expect it to work. Then you say your mantra about next time when you come to question your reality, you realize you are dreaming.

So it's not really the RC that will get you lucid. It's the question you ask yourself. It's the "wow" moment, that makes you stop anything you doing and become aware of where you are. And then this behaviour will start happening in your dreams. You will start questioning your reality in your dreams. Later on, you may even skip the question (automatically, not you will decide) and realize you are in a dream just out of the blue. You still may do RC to confirm (also automatically).

This happened to me like bout 100 times, I called it " FALSE LUCID "., which means you become lucid with your Subconscious state and not the Conscious, you may forget your goals and ways to stabilize in FALSE LUCID,perform weird tricks, and it is not vivid at all, just like normal dreams, but you know that you're dreaming ( Sub-conscious state ). TRUE LUCID DREAM is like what are you feeling right now, vivid and aware. Sometimes RC will cause FALSE LUCID too, which is not 100% working.

Exactly, I'm just frustrated because I was at the point of having at least 2 LD's a week and I could DEILD pretty well. Then for some reason I stopped dreamjournaling and lost my regular lucidity. I had a real LD last week but the closest I got since was the the false lucid last night. Fortunately I've been journaling again and my recall is back to what it used to be.

If I were you, I wouldn't put that term in my brain.

Listen to gab, also if you know that you are dreaming, then you are lucid, there's no true or false.

Although I knew I was dreaming, there was no rush of awareness, it still had the feel of a regular non-rational dream. It just felt like the DC that represented me recognized he was dreaming, but it didn't register in my brain as me realizing it was a dream. It was also not very vivid.

That's what I refer to as a non-lucid dream about being lucid. Probably simpler to just say false lucid, but the staff doesn't seem to like it when people say that, not sure why exactly.

Originally Posted by LemonJon

Although I knew I was dreaming, there was no rush of awareness, it still had the feel of a regular non-rational dream. It just felt like the DC that represented me recognized he was dreaming, but it didn't register in my brain as me realizing it was a dream. It was also not very vivid.

Vividnes or control has nothing to do with dream being lucid or not.

If you know you are dreaming, it's a lucid dream. But you can have all different levels of awareness.

@LemonJon

Vividness and awareness of lucid dreams varies, practice awareness during reality checks like gab told you and it will get better, you could also try ADA, many people have success with it: http://www.dreamviews.com/induction-...kingyoshi.html

@Darkmatters

Because by definition, being lucid means knowing that you are dreaming. The unofficial definitions like 'false lucid' only lead to disappointment and frustration, putting people mentally further from lucidity as far as i know.

Now that I think about it, it was probably just a low level lucid. I guess I'm just so used to all my lucids being above a certain threshold of awareness, I don't consider low level lucids to be really lucid when they actually are. Thinking of it this way will help my confidence and hopefully get me back into the swing of things.

Originally Posted by Checker666

@Darkmatters

Because by definition, being lucid means knowing that you are dreaming. The unofficial definitions like 'false lucid' only lead to disappointment and frustration, putting people mentally further from lucidity as far as i know.

Ok, I get that - but wouldn't it be helpful to also explain to them that sometimes - in fact frequently - newcomers will dream about being lucid without actually being lucid, and that those can often be mistaken for lucidity? That seems to be a bit of knowledge in danger of becoming forgotten by future generations. Is it that you don't like to use negative words like false? (I can understand that if that's it)

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Ok, I get that - but wouldn't it be helpful to also explain to them that sometimes - in fact frequently - newcomers will dream about being lucid without actually being lucid, and that those can often be mistaken for lucidity? That seems to be a bit of knowledge in danger of becoming forgotten by future generations. Is it that you don't like to use negative words like false? (I can understand that if that's it)

...while in fact they are actually lucid because they know that they are dreaming...
I don't see what can be mistaken here... unless you mean non-lucid dreams with dream control, those happen, but in those one doesn't actually knows that he's dreaming. If one knows that he's dreaming, it's lucid dream.

I'm tempted to post a facepalm here, but I don't want to be disrespectful.

Are you saying you're completely unaware of the very common phenomenon where people have a dream in which - for instance (but not limited to) their DC does a reality check, shuts "Hallelujia!" and then starts running around trying to fly or phase through walls, all without a hint of any actual lucidity? Or maybe he dreams of saying "I'm Dreaming!", but doesn't actually feel it? This kind of stuff happens all the time just before people start experiencing lucidity for real.

Like I said, I can understand not wanting to use the term false lucid, but let's not just pretend this doesn't happen.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

That's what I refer to as a non-lucid dream about being lucid. Probably simpler to just say false lucid, but the staff doesn't seem to like it when people say that, not sure why exactly.

Wow, Darkmatters, you may have something there.

Well let's see... Two days ago I pissed people off by daring to say that low-level lucids aren't really LD's at all, yesterday I pissed people off by saying that there are no natural LD'ers (I decided I was using the term incorrectly, BTW) -- I might as well go for the trifecta:

Auron:If I were you, I wouldn't put that term in my brain.

Checker666: ... also if you know that you are dreaming, then you are lucid, there's no true or false... Because by definition, being lucid means knowing that you are dreaming. The unofficial definitions like 'false lucid' only lead to disappointment and frustration, putting people mentally further from lucidity as far as i know...

...while in fact they are actually lucid because they know that they are dreaming...I don't see what can be mistaken here... unless you mean non-lucid dreams with dream control, those happen, but in those one doesn't actually knows that he's dreaming. If one knows that he's dreaming, it's lucid dream.

Respectfully guys, are you serious? Do you really believe it's better mislead people about their experience than it is to help them through things like this?

Checker666, I think we've taken this lap together before, but let me repeat: consciousness is not a black and white affair. There are many shades of awareness, from complete lack of self-awareness (NLD), to full-blown lucidity (in waking and dreaming lives). To say that you're either lucid or not is to both sell the experience short, and also to diminish or even harm the learning experiences of the dreamers looking to you for guidance. And seriously, an eye-roll because Darkmatters suggested that it is possible to dream that you know you are dreaming? If during a dream I'm sure that I'm swimming in an active volcano, does that make that true as well?

Darkmatters is absolutely right, and JimmyChung's definition is spot-on: of course your dreaming mind, your unconscious, is fully capable of fulfilling your wishes and providing you with a dream that your DC "You" is sure is lucid, but which lacks an iota of self-awareness... that's sort of it's job, isn't it? I used to get them all the time, in glowing detail and with what I was sure was full control and lucidity -- until I woke up and realized that I was never lucid at all, which is easier to notice than you think, if you're willing to check.

This is why RC's and daytime mental practice is so important; and it's also why it's extremely important that a dreamer be aware the condition exists, lest they be locked in it. For instance:

At one of LaBerge's Dreamcamps, about 12 years ago, there was a woman who proudly described her lucid dream each morning, impressing everyone in the room with the details (I'll withhold those details on the chance that she is a member here). The trouble is, it quickly became very easy to tell that she was never lucid. How? Among other things: by the fact that everything was happening to her with very little personal involvement, by her confessed inability to remember anything about her waking life during the dream, and, above all, by her also admitted belief that everything in the dream was real. I tried to suggest that the dream wasn't lucid and immediately had my head bitten off by her and one of LaBerge's minions as well (LaBerge was silent), so I said "fine," and shut up. Later on LaBerge's website forum, I noticed the woman still recording the same dreams, which were just as non-lucid, and touting them as high-level lucidity, because that's what They told her they were. I imagine that to this day she is still having the same dreams, still without any lucidity, and believes that these dreams are as far as she will ever get with LD'ing. She never learned that she could have done more, had she recognized the state she had been locked into by her very helpful dreaming mind. A very eager, interested student completely missed out on the lucid dreaming experience because she (gladly) accepted that the only thing these dreams could have been were lucids.

Saying "Fine" and shutting up is normally what I do here as well, but I simply could not believe that a DV dream guide and a DV administrator (if I got the star count right) are actually suggesting that the term "false lucid" be stricken from dreamers' brains.

Is that really a stance DV, or anyone with responsibility in these matters, ought to be taking? Wouldn't it be better to look into the possibility that false lucids exist, and then develop a technique or state test to help recognize them (it isn't difficult), than to simply deny they exist because we don't want to confuse the kids?

Sorry for the outburst, but I simply could not believe the posts I was seeing here. False lucids certainly can and do exist, and I'd bet that pretty much everyone here has had one once or twice. That is by no means a bad thing and, relevant to the OP, they can certainly be used as another rung on the ladder to lucidity.

Come on, guys; denial is never a good thing, and keeping things away from students is disingenuous at best. Please try harder.

(Here's to the hope that my sign-on still works tomorrow...)

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I'm tempted to post a facepalm here, but I don't want to be disrespectful.

Are you saying you're completely unaware of the very common phenomenon where people have a dream in which - for instance (but not limited to) their DC does a reality check, shuts "Hallelujia!" and then starts running around trying to fly or phase through walls, all without a hint of any actual lucidity? Or maybe he dreams of saying "I'm Dreaming!", but doesn't actually feel it? This kind of stuff happens all the time just before people start experiencing lucidity for real.

Like I said, I can understand not wanting to use the term false lucid, but let's not just pretend this doesn't happen.

Fine.

Once again, while I'm assembling 500 nearly incomprehensible words, someone else sneaks in and says what I wanted to say, only better, and in just 50 words.

First of all, nobody is mad at anybody. But if your login doesn't work tomorrow, you'll know what happend. Lol, just kidding. You guys are the greates source of information here. We much appreciate your help and efforts to better the information we provide. We have already tackled the SP nightmare together, a little thing as false lucid will not sour our relationship. At least from where I'm standing.

Ok, now, sageous, wasn't it you, who was saying that there could be different levels of awareness and that determines how much we remember from waking life. So we can have a low awareness LD and don't remember where my sleeping body is, for example, but remember what I wanted to do in next LD? And It can be all foggy or all crisp, but awareness could be low in both?

I guess why I'm not partial to name False Lucid is, because it has the name Lucid in it, but it has nothing to do with LD.

It's just a regular dream, in which you dream of having a lucid dream. Like False awakening has nothing to do with waking up.

And the way OP describes it

Although I knew I was dreaming, there was no rush of awareness, it still had the feel of a regular non-rational dream. It just felt like the DC that represented me recognized he was dreaming, but it didn't register in my brain as me realizing it was a dream. It was also not very vivid.

You can have no rush of awareness, especially if you already used to the feeling. And not being vivid. This could be low level LD. But it could also be just a regular dream. I don't think it's easy to clasify low awareness LDs, because it's such a grey area. It's not black and white.

I personally don't remember having a dream like false lucid. I did have some dreams, though, with somu lucid elements like flying, bending things with my mind, and having a feeling like I could go lucid at any moment. But I never had a dream in which I knew I'm lucid, it just didn't click.

It seems to me that it depends on whether or not one views the idea of being lucid as a level of awareness.

One camp believes that some form of awareness is inherent, and the other does not. I guess I am in camp two.

Regardless of your stance here, both sides have good intentions, but I think it should be emphasized in any case that such a low level of "lucidity" if indeed lucidity it is, should always be described as a minor milestone, and not a signal to rest on one's laurels, as Sageous's post more than adequately demonstrates. In other words, just saying "Yes sir, you were lucid" would be unsatisfactory without some explanation of the situation. It seems easier to just say "No, you were not lucid, but you were on the verge." Both sentences would probably require further explanation in any case, otherwise this argument would not exist.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Ok, I get that - but wouldn't it be helpful to also explain to them that sometimes - in fact frequently - newcomers will dream about being lucid without actually being lucid, and that those can often be mistaken for lucidity? That seems to be a bit of knowledge in danger of becoming forgotten by future generations. Is it that you don't like to use negative words like false? (I can understand that if that's it)

This. As long as we educate folks on what those different "levels" or whatever, I wouldn't care if you called it an apple pie lucid.

I suppose it was the word "false" that got folks so uptight?? No clue. But I'd rather we get together and come up with a term that makes sense, but doesn't discourage new members (since we definitely want to encourage them when they get on the right track, and start "dreaming of lucid dreaming" and other oddities like that). That would be better than having y'all feel like staff is making certain things forbidden to discuss. I'm still not sure where that started exactly.

I would be very uncomfortable telling people that they didn't achieve lucidity, until they have a high awarenes lucid. That low awareness LD is not LD, just being on the verge of reaching lucidity.

Frankly, this is something very new to me. This would discourage so many people.

What I'm striving to do is to encourage them. To tell them, they had a LD (if indeed, they did). Doesn't matter if it was high or low awareness. After some experience, they will notice differences themselves and start asking questions about it. Then it would be a good time for them to find out about different levels of awareness and how to manipulate it.

I don't think low level LD is just a minor milestone. It's a huge milestone. It's the goal, doesn't matter if low or high or anything in between. And then you can go and get better at it and reach higher level LDs.

I don't see myself telling people who after many weeks or months finally have a 2 sec. lucid that "meh, just a minor milestone". That is just so wrong.

In my opinion, only someone with hundreds of LDs cares, if it was a high or low level LD. Just because by then he knows the difference. By then, he can afford not to care about low level LDs and even label them "not even lucid, just on the verge". Yes, compared to very high level LD, those could be seem to him as "not worth a mention".

But for a beginner, believe me, they do matter a whole deal.

Personally I don't care if it's high or low, a lucid is a lucid.

But dreaming about being lucid is not being lucid. If it was, we could get out of paying tickets by saying "but your honor, I dreamed I paid it last night!" - Or "But honey - I dreamed we did something romantic last week!"

Gab, I suspect you don't really understand what I'm talking about. It's something completely different from lucidity with low awareness - it's a totally non-lucid dream where you just say "I'm dreaming!" and then try to fly around, or do some kind of reality checks (which might be totally wrong, like you try to poke your finger in your eye and then stomp on your foot and say "yes!! I AM dreaming!!").

I'm not saying that's what the person had who started this thread - I have no way to tell. At first he said he was totally not lucid, but later he said he thought maybe he was. But I'm just responding to this idea that there's no such thing as what people are calling a false lucid. I can understand people objecting to the term, but the phenomenon it refers to is completely real and a lot of people come in here reporting it happened to them and asking if it was lucidity.

I just don't think it helps to just tell them "There's no such thing as false lucidity" and leave it at that, and I also don't think it's very helpful to tell them what they experienced was actual lucidity if it wasn't. There's a world of difference between knowing you're dreaming and dreaming that you know you're dreaming.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Gab, I suspect you don't really understand what I'm talking about. It's something completely different from lucidity with low awareness - it's a totally non-lucid dream where you just say "I'm dreaming!" and then try to fly around, or do some kind of reality checks (which might be totally wrong, like you try to poke your finger in your eye and then stomp on your foot and say "yes!! I AM dreaming!!").

No, I do. And I agree with you. There could be dreams in which you just dream that you are lucid. Never had them, or don't remember them. But that doesn't matter, because rules are not written based on my experiences.

More we talk about false lucid, more I'm warming up to the idea of calling them that. Not to their existance, I believe the do exist. Just to the name. Btw, how come we never seen a FL acronym here? Just curious. What happend to just calling them "yeah, your practice is paying off and it's showing in your regular dream now"? That's how I call them. Too long?

I'm still here, phew!

Originally Posted by gab

Ok, now, sageous, wasn't it you, who was saying that there could be different levels of awareness and that determines how much we remember from waking life. So we can have a low awareness LD and don't remember where my sleeping body is, for example, but remember what I wanted to do in next LD? And It can be all foggy or all crisp, but awareness could be low in both?

Yep, that was me. But I was talking about actual LD's, where you did manage to confound your unconscious at some level (hell, any level) and became aware that you were dreaming. Yes, a low-level lucid usually does not include much memory, if any, so yeah, you wouldn't remember your sleeping body. And yes, low-level lucidity can come in any form of vividness, since vividness and lucidity are two different things. That bit from the woman's story about remembering was just one symptom of many, BTW; had that been her only issue, I would've congratulated her on her LD instead of being Danny Downer.

Now here's the ironic bit about false lucids, and maybe an important point, too: Because your dreaming mind is giving you exactly what you want, a false lucid (notice I'm not calling them FLD's, as acronyms tend to legitimize terms) will usually seem like a full-blown lucid with all the bells and whistles you expected. This, BTW, was the case with the woman in the story, and was definitely the case in the many false lucids I've had. This is a good thing, I think, because it gives you a very fun experience, and, after you've prepared mentally, you will be able to recognize that this dream is a false lucid, and then turn it into a proper LD.

In other words, false lucids would not be confused with low-level lucidity.

I guess why I'm not partial to name False Lucid is, because it has the name Lucid in it, but it has nothing to do with LD. It's just a regular dream, in which you dream of having a lucid dream. Like False awakening has nothing to do with waking up.

Yes, just a dream, but it can have something to do with LD'ing, in that a false lucid can be a tool for becoming lucid... just as false awakenings are used by many as tools to become lucid.

A little more:

I would be very uncomfortable telling people that they didn't achieve lucidity, until they have a high awarenes lucid. That low awareness LD is not LD, just being on the verge of reaching lucidity.

Frankly, this is something very new to me. This would discourage so many people.

Again, this is not about levels of awareness! If awareness is very low, it can still be called lucid, and you can and should encourage away. It's when awareness is completely absent, and the dream was just a dream, that the ugly truth might need to be mentioned, for the dreamer's sake.

And remember, since false lucids can ultimately be a learning experience, you can still encourage even after coughing up the bad news!

Valid point Gab. Sensitive types might be very discouraged by such a statement. On the other hand I always enjoyed the challenge of aiming for the top right from the start and don't really care about smaller milestones; but then, I wouldn't be making a topic asking about whether someone thinks I was lucid or not to be honest. Some people do need that extra bit of encouragement, though it is important that they understand the details regardless.

In the end you have to say what you see as the truth regardless of how they take it (in my opinion). If I were to say that I believed they were lucid, I would not be truthful. Same goes for the other side.

Originally Posted by gab

I would be very uncomfortable telling people that they didn't achieve lucidity, until they have a high awarenes lucid. That low awareness LD is not LD, just being on the verge of reaching lucidity.

Frankly, this is something very new to me. This would discourage so many people.

What I'm striving to do is to encourage them. To tell them, they had a LD (if indeed, they did). Doesn't matter if it was high or low awareness. After some experience, they will notice differences themselves and start asking questions about it. Then it would be a good time for them to find out about different levels of awareness and how to manipulate it.

I don't think low level LD is just a minor milestone. It's a huge milestone. It's the goal, doesn't matter if low or high or anything in between. And then you can go and get better at it and reach higher level LDs.

I don't see myself telling people who after many weeks or months finally have a 2 sec. lucid that "meh, just a minor milestone". That is just so wrong.

In my opinion, only someone with hundreds of LDs cares, if it was a high or low level LD. Just because by then he knows the difference. By then, he can afford not to care about low level LDs and even label them "not even lucid, just on the verge". Yes, compared to very high level LD, those could be seem to him as "not worth a mention".

But for a beginner, believe me, they do matter a whole deal.

The thing is, a False Lucid, and a Low Awareness Lucid are not the same thing, I have experienced A false lucid (do a reality check, it works, I think "I'm Lucid," and proceed to run around the house doing nothing in particular, thinking i was lucid, having very clear thoughts, but I was clearly not in controlling my actions). In a low awareness Lucid, I would be in control of my actions, but not able to think easily, its like trying to think about something complex while you're drunk.

That's why it's a problem, you would be telling them they had a lucid dream, even though they just had a dream about being lucid, with NO actual lucidity involved. If you encourage someone in that direction, they will continue to believe these are actual lucid dreams, and never strive for anything more. Much like in Sageous's example.

Edit:Sageous beat me to it