Thread: Are false lucids a sign of progress or failure

Originally Posted by Meskhetyw

In the end you have to say what you see as the truth regardless of how they take it (in my opinion). If I were to say that I believed they were lucid, I would not be truthful. Same goes for the other side.

So if a newbie would describe his first lucid dream and it would seem to you a low level lucid, you would tell him he didn't have a LD?

Side question for the masses. Since when are we separating lucids into low and high and giving them separate status and why does it matter from the standpoint of a newb LDer? That's as if I never got a driver licence, even after finishing a test with flying colors, just because I didn't qualify for Indy 500?

Originally Posted by Ksero

The thing is, a False Lucid, and a Low Awareness Lucid are not the same thing, I have experienced A false lucid (do a reality check, it works, I think "I'm Lucid," and proceed to run around the house doing nothing in particular, thinking i was lucid, having very clear thoughts, but I was clearly not in controlling my actions). In a low awareness Lucid, I would be in control of my actions, but not able to think easily, its like trying to think about something complex while you're drunk.

That's why it's a problem, you would be telling them they had a lucid dream, even though they just had a dream about being lucid, with NO actual lucidity involved. If you encourage someone in that direction, they will continue to believe these are actual lucid dreams, and never strive for anything more. Much like in Sageous's example.

Edit:Sageous beat me to it

But I agree with you.

So if a newbie would describe his first lucid dream and it would seem to you a low level lucid, you would tell him he didn't have a LD?

In that particular case I would say he had a low level lucid dream.

Originally Posted by gab

Side question for the masses. Since when are we separating lucids into low and high and giving them separate status and why does it matter from the standpoint of a newb LDer? That's as if I never got a driver license, even after finishing a test with flying colors, just because I didn't qualify for Indy 500?

Good point. That might be partially my fault, or at least I feel like every conversation I've been in over the last few weeks has had the word "level" in it.

Though I personally have an obvious interest in talking about levels of lucidity, know they are important in terms of experience and goal-setting, and I might have an incredibly unpopular opinion about where "true" lucidity kicks in, I do believe it should be clear that a very low-level lucid is still a lucid dream, period.

I think some confusion arose on this thread because false-lucids (or Virtual Lucid -- VL, anyone?) were mistakenly compared to low-level LD's, thus putting low-level LD's into a bad light

I don't think it matters when you are just starting out, whether you have a high or low level of lucidity, as long as there is some lucidity there (ie. they aren't having a false/virtual lucid).

^^ Agreed.

Ok, so is False Lucid and accepted name? Where does it come from?

^^ Since it's just a dream, I'm not sure false lucid is an actual accepted, "official" term -- and it got no hits that I noticed on the Bing search I just did.

Though I highly doubt I was the first to use it here two years ago (God please don't let that be my fault!), I started using it my own years ago when I was moderating the Lucidity Institute's forum (they didn't like it either).

At any rate, no need to hang onto the term that I can think of.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Since it's just a dream, I'm not sure false lucid is an actual accepted, "official" term -- and it got no hits that I noticed on the Bing search I just did.

Though I highly doubt I was the first to use it here two years ago (God please don't let that be my fault!), I started using it my own years ago when I was moderating the Lucidity Institute's forum (they didn't like it either).

At any rate, no need to hang onto the term that I can think of.

I came this close to making a mess on my laptop with my food when reading this.

All is good, sageous.

God, it's all Sageous's fault!

I know that alot of the "levels of lucidity" terminology may have come from Reece's videos. It's really insightful stuff, but can cause alot of confusion especially for the new guys. I'm perfectly fine with just telling someone "Oh, you had a dream that you were talking to your friends about the subject of lucid dreaming? That's cool! It wasn't a lucid dream, but the fact that the subject is coming up in your nonlucids means that LDing is on your mind alot now. And that level of awareness of the subject is the right track for getting lucid."

As for labeling that type of thing as some type, or level, of lucidity, might get confusing. Glad we're discussing it though. You know, when I first joined dreamviews, I had had lucids in my past, but never on purpose. After a bout a week of posting on DV, and dream journaling, I had a dream that I was at Hogwarts, and trying to reanimate a dead cockroach. I wasn't lucid, and dream never even entered my mind. But I had the ability to use my hands and cause the bug to move, and spin on the floor a bit. When I posted that dream, everyone was saying "Oh that's just a low level lucid." And I remember being confused, because at no time did I ever go "Oh I'm dreaming yay!" I had some dream control, but without the lucidity. Fortunately later on I had more actual lucids, and I just tossed the bug dream into my dream junk drawer.

I guess my point is, it would have been better if a staff member had said "Well that's not lucid, but you're getting more aware of your dream environment. You're on the right track woohoo." Even though I was able to figure it out on my own anyway, I wonder how many other members just got confused and felt stupid and gave up and left the site.

Originally Posted by gab

I would be very uncomfortable telling people that they didn't achieve lucidity, until they have a high awarenes lucid. That low awareness LD is not LD, just being on the verge of reaching lucidity.

Frankly, this is something very new to me. This would discourage so many people.

What I'm striving to do is to encourage them. To tell them, they had a LD (if indeed, they did). Doesn't matter if it was high or low awareness. After some experience, they will notice differences themselves and start asking questions about it. Then it would be a good time for them to find out about different levels of awareness and how to manipulate it.

I don't think low level LD is just a minor milestone. It's a huge milestone. It's the goal, doesn't matter if low or high or anything in between. And then you can go and get better at it and reach higher level LDs.

I don't see myself telling people who after many weeks or months finally have a 2 sec. lucid that "meh, just a minor milestone". That is just so wrong.

In my opinion, only someone with hundreds of LDs cares, if it was a high or low level LD. Just because by then he knows the difference. By then, he can afford not to care about low level LDs and even label them "not even lucid, just on the verge". Yes, compared to very high level LD, those could be seem to him as "not worth a mention".

But for a beginner, believe me, they do matter a whole deal.

AHHHHH! My mind is spinning in circles here. Forgive my poor uneducated brain everyone. To be honest as a new person around here, hearing that there are multiple levels of awareness and multiple levels of Lucidity makes more sense than things like False Lucid. It seems a bit harsh to say someone had a "False Lucid Dream", when (if I am understanding corectly, and anyone can correct me at any point) in fact it is just a lower level of lucidity. At least (if I am catching the gist of it) he is "On the verge" of a fully Lucid state.

This is what I take away from this thread.

False Lucid is a regular dream, in which a dreamer dreams about being lucid. But he doesn't gain lucidity. Awareness.

And lucid dreams can be of different quality. Stable or not stable, foggy or sharp and focused, realistic or not so much, and we can have different awareness. We can remember our whole Waking life, or not even our next lucid dreaming goal.

And for a novice lucid dreamer, it really shouldn't matter. The goal is to achieve a LD through practicing awareness and getting better at memorizing things, plus RCs and mantras and other things. And after a few lucids, when it's clear that we can do it and our confidence is up, we can work on making our lucids of better quality.

Originally Posted by gab

This is what I take away from this thread.

False Lucid is a regular dream, in which a dreamer dreams about being lucid. But he doesn't gain lucidity. Awareness.

And lucid dreams can be of different quality. Stable or not stable, foggy or sharp and focused, realistic or not so much, and we can have different awareness. We can remember our whole Waking life, or not even our next lucid dreaming goal.

And for a novice lucid dreamer, it really shouldn't matter. The goal is to achieve a LD through practicing awareness and getting better at memorizing things, plus RCs and mantras and other things. And after a few lucids, when it's clear that we can do it and our confidence is up, we can work on making our lucids of better quality.

Thanks Gab, at least my brain can wrap around that. I agree that all the talk of levels and stages is a bit too much for the newbees like me(Even having a Master LDer like sivason doesn't save me from confusion, infact sivason can be very confusing when not pinned down).

Well this thread got tl;dr for me but I wanted to jump in. (Geez, this is why I like staying in my own little corner of DV ) I don't like the term false lucid either In fact, I hate it. But I think it's all moot point since (*cringe*) false lucid = non lucid. I like to keep things simple and if I over-think things as much as you all seem to do I tend to get really discouraged and overwhelmed. I mean, why do we have to get so technical? Maybe it's just me but I intuitively know if I was really lucid regardless of whether or not the dream mimicked lucidity in every way. I have had dreams like that and deep down I know that it was not a lucid dream. I'm able to admit that, learn from it and move on. IMHO all that's important is that we aim to get lucid regularly and then we continue to learn to have higher awareness for longer periods of time. Call it what the hell you want to and then try for better next time. I'd rather put my efforts toward getting better then trying to label everything and worry how high or low my lucidity is.

BTW I hope I don't sound tacky here I mean no disrespect or anger toward anyone. (Hard to tell in text format sometimes)

The good thing about this thread is that it does illustrate exactly why the staff needs to define, agree, and adhere to a general "lucidity doctrine" or something similar. But maybe that is just opening a whole other can of worms.

Regardless of opinion, Sageous is and always will be the bomb!
Oh and the rest of you too I suppose.

Personally, I would be ok with calling a dream I would have a false lucid, but I would never be comfortable telling someone else that their dream was a false lucid because while I can tell whether I felt lucid or not (and I reassessed after all that was written here, and yes my two LDs in 2013 definitely were low level lucids and not false lucids, yay), however, I cannot get into somebody else's head, and thus I cannot tell them whether they were lucid or not if we say that someone can think they are dreaming in a no lucid dream). I would not be comfortable questioning someone else if they thought they were lucid - who am I to tell them that I know better what went on inside their head than they think they do. And I would not be comfortable with the possibility of being wrong and telling someone that they were not lucid when in fact they were but I mistakenly thought it was a false lucid - I would much rather be mistaken in the other direction.

Given your description of what a false lucid is, I concede it is possible, I don't think I ever had one, though I have had plenty of pathetically low level lucids when I first started. However, I would prefer to tell others that if they though they were dreaming that was a lucid because while there may be a small group of people who will then be deceived into thinking they were lucid when they were not, but I think the chances of someone statying like that for the rest of their life are low, and thus the harm done is small, whereas the alternative might cause more harm in my opinion.

Sorry for this rambling. I am not sure whether I make full sense even to myself, but bottom line is: I prefer not using the term false lucid for assessing anyone else's dreams. If the dreamer him- or herself insists that it was a false lucid, that's ok.

Xanous - Virtual lucid seems to be a better term, there needs to be a way to explain what has happened.

JoannaB - It is possible to tell the difference between a false lucid and a low awareness lucid in someone elses post. Though I understand that if you haven't experienced both it would be difficult to tell someone else that they had a false/virtual lucid. Gab laid it out pretty nicely a couple posts up if you want to know the differences.

Very nice logic on everyone's part. I would jump in, but everything seems clear.

A quick summery of my own belief:
1) A dream in which someone describes "I suddenlly realized I was dreaming, then woke up" = a lucid dream! when encouraging a beginner, and a short low level lucid, for someone with a few dozen LDs. Encourage the hell out of the newbies!

2) A dream in which they describe " In the dream I said out loud that I was dreaming, but it never really clicked" = a dream about lucid dreaming. Not truely lucid, but a great sign. ie. Encourage the hell out the newbies.

Originally Posted by Meskhetyw

In the end you have to say what you see as the truth regardless of how they take it (in my opinion).

Personally I wouldn't make the call for them - I'd rather tell them about both possibilities - it could have been a false lucid, or it could have been a lucid with very low awareness. Leave it up to them to decide or to ponder it - in the end only they can really determine which it was, and they might not be able to do that until after they've experienced actual lucidity later.

The only point I was really trying to make with all this was that we should explain both.

Sageous, thanks for jumping in for the assist - I was starting to feel pretty alone out there! And Ophelia too of course! And everyone else who contributed.

^^ No problem; I know the feeling. As long as I'm here:

You just made another excellent point. Ultimately, judging the validity of a LD is completely up to the dreamer (yes, my advice to that woman in the story was therefore inappropriate, but I couldn't stand it anymore).

The best we can do is be there in support to provide the facts and concepts they might need to make that judgment. All of them.

Oh, and excellent summaries, Gab and Sivason!

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Personally I wouldn't make the call for them - I'd rather tell them about both possibilities - it could have been a false lucid, or it could have been a lucid with very low awareness. Leave it up to them to decide or to ponder it - in the end only they can really determine which it was, and they might not be able to do that until after they've experienced actual lucidity later.

The only point I was really trying to make with all this was that we should explain both.

Agreed. There is no reason that you can't give the opposing view along with your own in a case such as this. I hadn't thought that last post through evidently.

Wow this thread got way larger than I thought it would have. Good to know so many of you feel so passionately about the subject. All I can say after reading is that I'm judging what my dream was as a false lucid because although I did things I planned on doing when lucid, the actions I did were no deliberate. I felt as though I was watching someone else do all of them and that another entity all together had lucidity and I was just a spectator.

But what I was mainly concerned with was whether or not even dreaming about lucid dreaming shows that my effort is showing any progress. I have had these false lucids before and they were usually followed by an actual lucid dream. This could be purely coincidental.

Oh it's definitely progress!!

It means you've been thinking about lucidity so much that it's filled up your brain and is starting to spill over into your dreams - next step is actual lucidity.

^^ What he said.

I can vouch for the existence of false lucid dreams. I've had at least 3 before, and I would literally be saying, "OMG! I'M DREAMING!" and not become lucid.

Pesky FLD's...