BLEH... Tell me I'm on the right track... Please!!!

[kevinmwhm]

I'm older (36 this fall) so I know I have more years of brain hard wiring to reverse and switch up before I can ld on any kind of regular basis. None-the-less, it's getting frustrating having worked hard for over a half a year for 6 very short lucids. The last two were separated by almost 2 months. Any of you take a long time learning this before having it "click"? I'm just not sure if I'm on the right timescale. (I'm doing all my waking life work well... I'm just frustrated by the time frame I guess.)

[moonlightress]

Greetings from a fellow BP. I'm 51 and just starting out so I know what you mean, I also have a lot of unawareness to overcome.

[PennyRoyal]

Hi Kevinmwhm, What are your current practices? How's your recall? Do you keep a DJ? Performing WBTBs when possible?

[LukeSid]

Hi Everybody I'm a newbie today. I'm 69 (does that make me the oldest on here?) and I wondered myself whether age makes lucidity more difficult. I do suffer a certain amount of memory loss, but for names only at the moment (I was a dj and knew most songs but don't ask me to name them OR the singer anymore) but I do a dream journal so that's not really a problem. I've been spiritual in outlook and peripherally into Buddhism for years so I'm hoping that may help and, although I haven't had an LD yet it's only been two months and I had a smidgen of a result last night (see my intro) Are you practising any of the methods to prolong lucidity? I'm poised ready to throw myself to the floor or spin like a top when the excitement of my first LD hits me (Or I might just run round a field shouting at the top of my voice and wake up)

[Rothgar]

Dudes... I am 61 and started practicing LDs a year and a half ago. Until recently my LDs have mostly been short. I too thought maybe age. But last 3 have been minutes long and stable. So I think you can learn it. I am pretty fortunate in that I have had about one a week since I started. But last 3 were in 6 days. While too soon to be sure I think I am getting better now finally. I think it is just training and forming "mind memory", similar to forming muscle memory through repetition. Unfortunately you cant practice having LDs every day. But you can practice RCs, awareness, setting attention, being excited about the prospects, planning your actions, etc.

[kevinmwhm]

Nice to see some older people. I was beginning to think being a teenager was a pre-requsite!!! LOLLOL So my routine is ADA, a little meditation, and self awareness. I need to pick back up on my Dream Journal though. I've neglected it for a few weeks. My recall is still excellent and my dreams are very vivid and lengthy from my 4th REM on. I also have this thing with people in my dreams. The only dream sign I can gather is that my dreams are always crowded with people. So whenever I'm in a new situation with a new group of people in waking life, I mutter to myself "cast change" and take in my surroundings real quick. Ask myself where I just was, are these people correct within the context of the situation etc. If I wasn't in a state of awareness during a "cast change" than I include some normal RC type stuff, mostly hands and nose plugging since those have been fail safe in the few lucids I've had so far. Anyway, like I said earlier, just frustrated that it's taking long with what I feel like is consistent practice. Based on what I've heard I know I'll get it! Good luck to those of you that are just behind me, let me know if you're having better luck! I'd love to hear some success stories!

[Scionox]

Think positive! It takes varying amount of time before it clicks, but i am sure it will come. If you want, you can give MILD technique a try in addition to what you do, it can help: http://www.dreamviews.com/induction-...id-dreams.html , also you can give WBTB a try: WBTB Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views And definitely get back to writing dreams, it helps to achieve mindset as well.

[LukeSid]

Perhaps we should form a sub-group "Lucid Pensioners" We need to get a move on so, when we're sitting dozing that long line of chairs in the old folks home, the attendants will wonder why we're smiling so much. My dream signs so far are military (from playing video games and agonizing over Syria I suppose) workplace (I'm well retired and haven't worked for years) unusual mixes of colours ????? (hence my avatar) and water (in its various configurations) Consider North Korea. many NK's clearly love Kim and have been conditioned from birth But there must be many who aren't so easily conditioned and just want out. Perhaps being difficult to condition works for and against us in our lives

[moonlightress]

Lol, kevin, do you still feel "older"?

[JoannaB]

I will be 40 this summer. I used to lD regularly when I was about 20 years old. Now I am having the hardest time getting back into the hobby: my recall is pretty good most nights, but I have only two LDs to show for about three months of effort. I too was wondering whether it was the age. I certainly know that if it had been this hard twenty years ago, I would not have gotten into the hobby because I was not nearly as patient back then. Oh, and if you guys start a lucid pensioners group, I am not going to join. I may be older than some of the kids on this site, but not a pensioner yet, plus I often am a kid at heart. So there!

[Voldmer]

For what it's worth, I'm 46 and until about a year ago, I could remember maybe one dream per month. Then I started taking dreaming seriously, and from october last year I began keeping a dream journal. After that time, I've had 25 lucid dreams, and they appear more frequently now than in the beginning. Most of them are very short (less than 30 seconds), but some have taken several minutes. Dream control tends to be fairly low. I remember one-two dreams per night except for periods during which I lack sleep, where dream recall is non-existant. Some of my main observations are these: * dream journaling gives a HUGE boost to memory recall * lack of sleep => severe tiredness => no dreaming * dreams may disappear without a trace at the slightest physical movement * getting up in the middle of the night, and going back to sleep again increases likelihood of LD'ing (yay - this is where age shows its strength! ) * practice makes perfect

[Goldenspark]

Some of my main observations are these: * dream journaling gives a HUGE boost to memory recall * lack of sleep => severe tiredness => no dreaming * dreams may disappear without a trace at the slightest physical movement * getting up in the middle of the night, and going back to sleep again increases likelihood of LD'ing (yay - this is where age shows its strength! ) * practice makes perfect Hey Voldmer, I can relate to those observations! I too am only now a teenager at heart and no longer in body (49)! I do think that the length of sleep is a major factor, made worse for me by a bedroom that is too light in the morning, and bird song that wakes me at dawn! I've only had 3 very brief LD's and have been getting frustrated. I think I need to go back to basics and start again. I thought I had cracked it when I did an RC in my dream, but woke up after only a few seconds. Before that the other 2 lucids were DEILD's, again very short. It's been 6 weeks since that last LD, and while my recall has been good (DJ) I can't seem to LD. I'm glad to hear there are some older folk who can do it though.

[JoannaB]

Have any of you tried supplements? I thought that maybe the chemistry is no longer as good with older age. However, when I tried galantamine + choline I did not notice any difference - although perhaps I shall try again.

[gab]

Have any of you tried supplements? I thought that maybe the chemistry is no longer as good with older age. However, when I tried galantamine + choline I did not notice any difference - although perhaps I shall try again. I have also thought that maybe I will not be able to WILD without supplements like Galantamine and Choline, because of age and related brain chemistry. I have had some great results with GM+Choline, but also some failures. Then I had some great results without supplements. I came to conclusion (only my opinion, of course), that if conditions are not favorable for a WILD, GM will not help much. But if they are, GM may give better results. Or at least kick-start your WILDing journey.

[Voldmer]

Have any of you tried supplements? I thought that maybe the chemistry is no longer as good with older age. However, when I tried galantamine + choline I did not notice any difference - although perhaps I shall try again. I'm conducting a reasonably large-scale experiment on myself, where I try various combinations of herbs (via infusions) and a few supplements. The data are coming in thick and fast (well, one new data point per night ), and there are probably about 150 data points up till now. But so far I have not yet modelled the data, so the results are not in yet. Except for a few extremely clear observations, that is: * Mugwort tea substantially raises awareness level, which increases dream recall and probability of lucidity. * Certain infusions are detrimental to LD'ing: California Poppy (= black hole in a cup), Catmint, Lemon balm. I also strongly suspect that caffeine is detrimental, because it lowers sleep quality, which leads to less dream time. Bear in mind, that everyones chemistry is unique, and the results quoted here were obtained with me as the only test subject. Hey Voldmer, I can relate to those observations! I too am only now a teenager at heart and no longer in body (49)! I do think that the length of sleep is a major factor, made worse for me by a bedroom that is too light in the morning, and bird song that wakes me at dawn! I've only had 3 very brief LD's and have been getting frustrated. I think I need to go back to basics and start again. I thought I had cracked it when I did an RC in my dream, but woke up after only a few seconds. Before that the other 2 lucids were DEILD's, again very short. It's been 6 weeks since that last LD, and while my recall has been good (DJ) I can't seem to LD. I'm glad to hear there are some older folk who can do it though. The problem of a bedroom that is too light too early is also well known to me (the people near the Equator have got it made ). I have succesfully used a sleep mask in a WBTB effort, where the waking up part coincided with seemingly the majority of birds in the northern hemisphere deciding to greet the new day by rehearsing for some singing talent show just outside my window. Physical sound and vision at the same time is just too much. Many of my LD's have taken place just before I would have woken up naturally, and my body was essentially awake already. Under those conditions, I know of no way to keep the dream going for more than a few seconds. But staying still may lead to falling asleep again, and with that attaining another chance at lucidity. WBTB seems to work fairly well (as in: increased chance of LD'ing), but I may have to knock myself out, in order to fall asleep again (a pre-prepared infusion of oat straw or lavender or something similar will do the trick).

[Sageous]

I just read through this thread and, though I have nothing to add, I must say it's left me feeling downright young! Nice to know (too) that I'm not the only old guy here!

[LukeSid]

JoannaB Well I’m very childish Is that the same as “young at heart”/ For what it’s worth, I’m into things like IT Crowd, Simon Pegg, ALL music,Twitter bigtime and I'm all over the web. Nothing physical...no hang-gliding etc...not because I'm disabled...merely because I'm a pc anorak You're as old as you feel (and I've just felt and I would say...about 56) I haven't thought about supplements...although I've tried chocolate and lots of cheese (that's my excuse) I'll certainly look at supplements though-I read something about vitamin B6...is that supposed to help? It's too early for me to blame age because I've been dabbling for only 2 months and I'm probably not even up to speed yet. But I appear to be the oldest here I suppose that's an achievement PS I'm having to constantly login again Is it this site? Failing that I'll look at my pc settings. I have my security settings high because of my stance on things like the Syrian war

[AMFW]

I'm 45. I've worn myself out trying techniques over the last few years, and didn't find anything that would work for me for long (placebo effect wears off). I've had my share of dry spells. That's really common. What works best for me: I decided that what I wanted was not so much "lucidity" as "I want to be the main character in really cool dreams." I created a heroic dream persona that is physically different from myself. A little taller, a little stronger, you get the idea. My most annoying and regular normal dream is "the still in school dream" that many of us continue to have, years after graduating. Recognizing myself in that impossible situation (I've got to take a final I'm not prepared for, I've got to take another class to graduate -- surprise!, and other junk like that) is my reality check. It triggers a physical transformation to "heroic me". I do a similar reality check for other recurring dreams. It's important to "feel" the transformation in the dream. Muscles move under a shirt. Pants feel different as I grow too tall for them. It's kind of silly, but it reminds me that I can fly right up through the ceiling, or walk through walls, or laugh at bullets. I have learned to ignore the temptation to look at the changes as they happen. That's a distraction and isn't necessary -- the important part is that I "know" that the change has happened, and now the story can continue in a new way. This method works great for me: I take my normal multivitamin before bed with a couple of glasses of water, enough to get me up in the middle of the night for another try. The multi has the B complex in it, which also helps, and it also acts like caffeine in that it wakes me up just a little as I go to sleep. As I drift off to sleep, I don't worry about WILDing. I try to WILD each night, but I've only succeeded once or twice (maybe) at the front end of sleep in five or six years of trying. The point is, I'm preparing myself with the intent to dream well. I think about myself in an annoying dream situation or two, imagine myself triggering the change, and anticipate the physical "feel" of the change. And then I try to watch the back of my eyes for hypnotic patterns that change to flashes of dreams. I wouldn't say I'm good at this. I can't make myself lucid on demand. I do have a lot of lucid dreams though, and regular "heroic" dreams where I have all the powers of lucidity but just don't spend time worrying about whether or not I've arrived there. My best lucid experiences happen on days when I can afford to try for WBTB sleep for at least 90 minutes after I normally get up. Real lucids for me are usually a string of short stories with a few seconds of near-consciousness in between each one. It's like a stone skipping across water when it works. The best trigger for these (once I recognize that I'm having success) is to try to reach out to touch or feel something in the dream world each time. Choosing to dream as a superheroic persona reminds me as I'm dreaming that I can do anything I want. That's natural for superheros, so a lot of the time rigid reality checking isn't necessary. I'm happy with my results. Best of luck to everyone! Don't worry toooo much about sticking to a particular method. Relax, enjoy, and find a path that works for you.

[kevinmwhm]

I've thought about, and tried melatonin & B6 but it seems to only really kick if I get in a full 8 hours of sleep. 8 hours for me only happens on weekends. During the week I only get about 6 a night which doesn't bother me because with or without suppressing REM early (which I'm under the impression melatonin does), my final dream of the night seems to be about the same. Of course I haven't tried melatonin more than a handful of times. I had thought that you build up a tolerance from a dreaming standpoint and for a night or two after I've taken it I had very poor recall. Of the older ones, I'd like to see what a year or so would do for your progress, if you've been able to maintain consistent practice. I wonder if the slower build up results in more consistent results. Just a curious thought I guess. @moonlightress - I guess I really feel like the middle child now!

[LukeSid]

PS I remember TWO shortish dreams from last night (getting better) and neither had any of my dream signs, (don't fight me mind) One involved a floor FULL of cards (birthday) standing upright ...I could hardly walk???? The other a densely-packed and sparsely-furnished community of houses and me trying to have a discreet wee somewhere??? (perhaps the water connection but I didn't need to go when I got up...and I checked the bed.) No impending birthdays, so I'm beginning to think my mind's a portable rubbish-heap of irrelevant facts and I'm having a clear-out

[LukeSid]

An interesting discussion. One advantage most of us oldies have is time More time to sleep if we want...more time perhaps to "prepare" for sleep. Questions - Is lucidity quite as prolific or as easy as some make out? Do you think some people might talk-up the ability? I've no doubt it exists (although I haven't yet reached it) and part of me feels that there might be implications in successful mastery beyond most people's expectations. My first impression when I started reading Tony Crisp's book was "This is Buddhism" If so, really successful lucidity for most would require a very spiritual approach and lots of discipline...which is why I question the "easy" converts - I've never seen an "Enlightenment in Two months" book...if enlightenment was that easy the World wouldn't be in the mess it is today. Of course, we've got technology, ambient music, drugs, lights, research etc...so perhaps the sky IS (or will be) the limit

[JoannaB]

An interesting discussion. One advantage most of us oldies have is time More time to sleep if we want...more time perhaps to "prepare" for sleep. Questions - Is lucidity quite as prolific or as easy as some make out? Do you think some people might talk-up the ability? I've no doubt it exists (although I haven't yet reached it) and part of me feels that there might be implications in successful mastery beyond most people's expectations. My first impression when I started reading Tony Crisp's book was "This is Buddhism" If so, really successful lucidity for most would require a very spiritual approach and lots of discipline...which is why I question the "easy" converts - I've never seen an "Enlightenment in Two months" book...if enlightenment was that easy the World wouldn't be in the mess it is today. Of course, we've got technology, ambient music, drugs, lights, research etc...so perhaps the sky IS (or will be) the limit I would begin to doubt the claims of relatively easy lucidity if I did not have memories of it from 20 years ago. Yes, it is quite possible for one to become good at lucid dreams without as much effort as most of us in this thread need to spend. I wonder was I more dedicated to the effort 20 years ago? What really worked back then? I know I alas forgot more than I remember. I do remember some effort, and I do remember my initial lucids were pathetic but I know I got good results much faster back then than now. If it is not age necessarily, is it because I have many more things on my mind? Back then I was a student, now I am a wife and mother who works full time. Come to think of it my brain back then was trained for learning new skills, so I am sure that helped in learning lucid dreaming.

[Sageous]

Questions - Is lucidity quite as prolific or as easy as some make out? No. The first LD might come easily, based on placebo effect and heightened expectation, but consistent LD'ing after that can be difficult, and certainly requires more than a bit of discipline, dedication, and real work. Do you think some people might talk-up the ability? Yes. Some, BTW, might be an understatement. I've no doubt it exists (although I haven't yet reached it) and part of me feels that there might be implications in successful mastery beyond most people's expectations. My first impression when I started reading Tony Crisp's book was "This is Buddhism" If so, really successful lucidity for most would require a very spiritual approach and lots of discipline...which is why I question the "easy" converts - I've never seen an "Enlightenment in Two months" book...if enlightenment was that easy the World wouldn't be in the mess it is today. Of course, we've got technology, ambient music, drugs, lights, research etc...so perhaps the sky IS (or will be) the limit Well said!

[RavenOfShadow]

One of the most influential changes for me was computer usage. I read somewhere that more than 5 hours on a computer totally destroys your natural seratonin and melatonin levels, which you need for vivid and active dreams. So knowing this, I cut down my computer usage (something hard for many people on here, ha!), and I never let myself stay on electronics an hour and half to two hours before bed. In the following two weeks after, I had four lucid dreams, bam bam bam bam. I also RELIGIOUSLY kept my dream journal. Recalling it isn't enough I don't think. After I go to bed, I reread all of my dreams, then I write down my mantra a few times. After that I absorb everything then forget about it and fall asleep. Hopefully some of this helps, just telling you what helped me! `Raven

[Sageous]

I read somewhere that more than 5 hours on a computer totally destroys your natural seratonin and melatonin levels, which you need for vivid and active dreams. So knowing this, I cut down my computer usage (something hard for many people on here, ha!), and I never let myself stay on electronics an hour and half to two hours before bed. I'd really like to see the study that supports that conclusion, Raven! Wouldn't by the same token, TV watching be just as damaging, if not more (because it isn't interactive)? If that were the case, wouldn't first-worldwide seratonin levels be at dangerously low levels by now? Somehow I don't think sitting at your computer affects seratonin and melatonin levels one wit. And, anecdotally of course, I sat at a computer screen for as many as eight hours a day for over 20 years, and yet I'm pretty sure my seratonin, melatonin, and dreaming levels are pretty much as they always were. Though I can think of lots of other reasons to cut down on computer usage, I'm not sure this would be one of them.