Thread: Abuse Potential - Neglecting Real Life For LD? Only If Per Technical Shortcut?

The question is - do you think, that there is an abuse-potential in LDing in a similar way as with drugs, alcohol, video-gaming, gambling etc.

This is a multiple choice poll!!

Another aspect would be - is there the potential that not the LDing itself, but the time spent to get there - and maybe in vain - in itself can alienate susceptible people from their real lives?

The inspiration to this poll stems from http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-aids...will-work.html, where there was an extensive off-topic discussion on this - and I promised to make the poll.
All based on a hypothetical technical device, which triggers lucidity without mental preparation or being quite developed in the awareness and insight department to begin with.

So – there are actually two quite different initial situations and the getting there aspect to build an opinion on:

a) LD without the help of technology +/-

b) LD with the help of yet to appear technology +/-

c) Intensive preparation work +/-



I have picked out one of Sageous quotes from the middle of the exchange, since it is advocating in the most clear fashion, what might be the dangers of an easy shortcut to LD.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I know you did not ask me, but one thought leaped into mind when you asked the question:
If the natural state of nightly sleep included lucid dreaming for all, I think there would be an extreme risk of a great number of people allowing their LD worlds to become their lives' priority, and as they get lost in their own little universes, they would lose touch and emotional ties with their waking-life friends and family, and their lives would become very empty, very closed to the surprises of reality and social activity that encourage mental and spiritual growth.

This sort of thing -- this abandonment of "difficult" things like love, learning, and surprise (and their commensurate joy) already happens to many, many people in waking life without lucid dreaming; I think that if you opened the LD'ing door to those people -- and to the people struggling to keep their lives open to change, love and growth -- you might discover a substantial chunk of the population simply folding up into themselves and socially disappearing.

This is not a new argument, as it has been made on the onsets of (for instance) TV, video games, and the internet. Unfortunately, I believe the power of LD'ing is geometrically greater than the power of all three of those game-changers, combined -- so too would the risks to those who experience it without a good sense of self or mental and spiritual discipline.

I can't imagine anything else being a problem, and the benefits of "everyone" LD'ing might vastly outweigh the risks, but I had that thought and figured I'd share...

I have spoilered the pertinent parts of further posts here - please correct me, if you feel I did you wrong by the way I did it or update - also meaning the above one with that!

Spoiler for on topic quotes from the thread linked above:

Originally Posted by FryingMan

If someone can bring LDing with some degree of reliability to the general public with a device they'll make a bazillion.

Originally Posted by Karloky

I don't think LD should be for global entertainment ....it should be to achieve inner piece and enlightment ....I don't support this at all ....

Originally Posted by Araishu

Lucid dreaming is a tool available to any person. People can find that they have the talent by accident so limiting it to achieve inner peace and enlightenment seems a little bit like you only want people to use it the way you use it. It can be used for so many things, and entertainment is one of them so I don't see why it would be a problem

Originally Posted by StephL

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What could be done with lucid dreaming, if "everyone" had access (isn´t that actually the natural state, which would be desirable?), that would cause suffering for individuals or groups of individuals?

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I know you did not ask me, but one thought leaped into mind when you asked the question:
If the natural state of nightly sleep included lucid dreaming for all, I think there would be an extreme risk of a great number of people allowing their LD worlds to become their lives' priority, and as they get lost in their own little universes, they would lose touch and emotional ties with their waking-life friends and family, and their lives would become very empty, very closed to the surprises of reality and social activity that encourage mental and spiritual growth.

This sort of thing -- this abandonment of "difficult" things like love, learning, and surprise (and their commensurate joy) already happens to many, many people in waking life without lucid dreaming; I think that if you opened the LD'ing door to those people -- and to the people struggling to keep their lives open to change, love and growth -- you might discover a substantial chunk of the population simply folding up into themselves and socially disappearing.

This is not a new argument, as it has been made on the onsets of (for instance) TV, video games, and the internet. Unfortunately, I believe the power of LD'ing is geometrically greater than the power of all three of those game-changers, combined -- so too would the risks to those who experience it without a good sense of self or mental and spiritual discipline.

I can't imagine anything else being a problem, and the benefits of "everyone" LD'ing might vastly outweigh the risks, but I had that thought and figured I'd share...

Originally Posted by fogelbise

^^Absolutely Sageous, I wholeheartedly agree! The effort it takes and the things I have learned is benefiting me in waking life...things I may not have tried before...realizations I may not have come to for many more years perhaps(thank you, Sageous, for your help by the way!)...If it were too easy, it could be abused like drugs as a way to escape a "miserable life." What a strange juxtaposition(?), it can improve a less-than-ideal life if it comes with effort and self-growth or it can give the opposite effect when it is too easy if it is also abused.
...

Originally Posted by StephL

Oh - in a sense I did ask you (Sageous) - and I have been thinking about it before myself, actually - just forgot in this context, because I sensed a completely different line of attack in Karloky´s posts.

Yeah - why is it,that evolution does not make it easy to reach this state?
Probably because of the reasons you described above - that was basically what I came up with as well.
I have to take my above statement back - or at least put it in very theoretical terms of a mankind farther along the line of development overall - if such a state of affairs would be possible is a completely different question again.

..

Originally Posted by Araishu

Although that is a very good point, I don't see what makes those of us who have experienced it by chance and looked it up any different from the general public. The kind of people who are willing to make Lucid Dreaming their only priority in life are most likely already occupied by things like video games and the sort. Lucid dreaming does not cause people to lack feelings of responsibility in real life, it simply gives those who already lack those feelings another medium to escape through.
Lucid dreaming is unimaginably exciting the first few times you achieve it and it's often all you can think about for a few days after. However, after a while it becomes a tool open for use for whatever you want and the obsession is dropped. It becomes a part of your reality rather than becoming your reality. At least, that's what I think anyway.

Originally Posted by Sageous

All true. But keep in mind that folks (like me as well) who stumble upon LD'ing are likely already intellectually prepared on some level to cope with and work with the novelty and escapism potentials of lucidity.

Because we were able to draw the conclusion that "this is a dream" based on our own existent self-awareness and mental wherewithal, we were able to temper our reaction and make thoughtful decisions about working to learn more, explore more, or walk away, without much negative effect on our waking lives. Not everyone is equipped to do that, and if LD'ing suddenly becomes available to all without any mental or work prerequisites, there likely will be a large group of people who could be swept up by the activity... in an even more effective manner than what happened with TV, the internet, and video games.
Of course I could be wrong...

Originally Posted by StephL

I really like that first statement - something to do with justice and equality.

And Sageous is basically saying, if I understand him correctly there - it´s the more potent agens in a variety of contexts of escapism.
And accordingly - the potential damage is significantly higher.

I fully agree on the point of potency - and that with only less than a handful of experiences (as an adult..?).
So - from a glimpse alone.

My question is now though - could not maybe the very act of becoming skilled in the art of LD sort of have a spill-over good effect on waking life quality?
Maybe even most of the cases?
Maybe it can lead people from escaping where ever and however they usually do - towards filling their actual real lives with meaning and awareness over the bridge of evolving their consciousness in LD?
…And - who drops off drops off because of not evolving enough to make it worth it?
So - they can safely go back play video games.

Hm - what is my opinion now??
I do not know.



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Originally Posted by Araishu

The ability to make choices and be responsible for your own actions is the brilliant thing about being conscious. The risk factor is always there with every single choice we make, but that doesn't mean we should not be allowed to make choices for ourselves. If somebody does choose to disassociate from society, that is their choice and they should be free to make it
Mastering LD does have many positive impacts on waking life which is one of the aspects that drew me towards it so it could certainly be seen as good thing if it were to be discovered by more people.

Indeed. If you choose to do so, you keep the skill for the rest of your days. You are in control of how you use it/for what reasons
I don't think it's a case of not evolving enough though. Anybody can master it so long as they actually want to.

Originally Posted by Sageous

…

That's not a bad idea, and though I wonder if we'd be surprised by the results, I have a feeling we'd be enlightened by the subsequent conversation about people's unnecessary but real fears of this sort of takeover.


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What do I think?

I think you can indeed develop an unhealthy obsession with hunting after lucidity in the first place - esp. if you do not manage for a long stretch and keep trying harder and harder, until it dominates your life.

On the other hand - quite the opposite can happen, too - I believe the preparation, when done in the sense of strengthening awareness, memory and expectations - freeing your imagination can be very beneficial, even if you do not get lucid in the progress.

So - it depends on the how and how much time there.


I do think, LDing in general - like doing it - is beneficial - but I am too much of a novice to have a useful opinion here actually.
I simply do not know the answer to my main question!
So maybe I just do not know of people abusing it - but I am yet to come across such a confession - I have seen not one.

And I think, an artificial triggering with contraptions existing right now wouldn´t get you very far - maybe to the initial realization, but then you also need to grow personally if you want to progress.

There might be future developments, which reach much farther - and there it would be hard to speculate.
Probably less invasive than a full-on artificial virtual reality - being jacked up with your brain into an artificial dream.

Oh - well - there of course the dreams of shared dreaming would be achievable - jack yourself up with others over the internet.

This will probably all come one day - maybe earlier than we think.
But we will always have our inner virtual reality, no electricity or infrastructure needed - and no other people either.
Nobody can take this from you.
But ultimately all of us are alone in our own natural dreams in my view.

Over to you!