Thread: Is lucid dreaming satanic?

MoonageDaydream--
Thanks for your thoughtful post. Not sure how to respond to it.

All I can tell you is what is in the original SUNDS post. That...thing, that awful soul stealing thing that freezes men's chests, that makes it impossible to breathe, that petrifies with terror with the image of Medusa on Athena's shield, came from a church. Came from from a church where people say much the same things you are saying about love, "peace" and yet what I experienced was the opposite of that.

So, yes, when I broke from that paralysis and pursued the Old hag, what the SUNDS phenomenon is called in Western cultures and found where it had been sent from I killed it. I would say that my doing so was out of love -- not for those who sent the thing to defeat an enemy an "unbeliever" but for those who wish to be free, who wish to have a choice, who wish to believe that one can be angry and act out of anger for love.

To liberate love from "peace" that is false.

Hummer

Hummer - you lost touch with reality.
Mostly Oriental people, who don't do their religious service properly get killed by Satan in their dreams? My bad.

Oh - and I still can't imagine an agnostic zealot - but I can imagine an atheistic zealot - I'm both the a-words and still aware I can't prove a negative.
Shame about these people you know, Nailler - doesn't do the cause any good.
And a cause I do have - I really don't like Christianity, and find it worthwhile to try and open people's eyes about it.

StephL

Mostly Oriental people, who don't do their religious service properly get killed by Satan in their dreams? My bad

What do I do with this sentence, these sentences? "My bad?" What exactly do you mean? Do you know? I doubt it.

Yes, people, even...Orientals are being killed in their dreams. Cripes there may be hundreds, thousands of white, middle class Americans killed in their dreams by the same syndrome only we have no SUNDS tradition -- instead we call it...sudden death in sleep, a heart attack, a stroke, "oh, he or she simply stopped breathing." We have no idea what horrific presence was there to steal the soul, heart, psyche.

No dreams, no investigation, no nothing. No challenge from folks like you dreaming your lucid steak dreams. No curiosity about what the heck it might actually mean that "God" flooded the entire planet to eliminate a whole kind of person, dreamer in favor of another kind of person, dreamer who does not dare to explore down into the basement where the "red pill" takes you.

Tell me a red pill dream and what you are doing about it and maybe I will have some respect for you.

Hummer

Originally Posted by Hummer

Yes, people, even...Orientals are being killed in their dreams. Cripes there may be hundreds, thousands of white, middle class Americans killed in their dreams by the same syndrome

What led you to believe people are dying in real life because they were killed in their dreams?

Nailer--
Well, they are! Those damned Oriental Asian people, Hmong types!

I have had and I am sure thousands of others have had SUNDS like episodes that might well have resulted in death if I was in weaker physical condition. What I suggest is that SUNDS-like events may be behind many sudden or unexpected deaths in Western cultures, or may accompany them. However, because we pay such scant attention to dreaming they are not recored or seen as SUNDS events.

Hummer

Originally Posted by Hummer

What I suggest is that SUNDS-like events may be behind many sudden or unexpected deaths in Western cultures, or may accompany them. However, because we pay such scant attention to dreaming they are not recored or seen as SUNDS events.

If the person died, how could we possibly determine with any certainty that the cause was a SUNDS event?

Originally Posted by vivianhawthorne

My mother and brother, both overbearing, religious, and nosey, both claim that by practicing lucid dreaming, I am opening myself to possession. I don't see how knowing you're asleep is any more sinful than knowing you're awake, but wanted to hear your opinions. (Don't worry I'm not about to boycott lucid dreaming. I just wanted to know...wish-3.jpg

I've been a Christian in the past, and still believe in demons, but from my understanding and experience the answer is, no a negative entity or demon or whatever you want to call it can't do that type of thing with just lucid dreamers.

Peace.

Originally Posted by Hummer

Nailer--
You cite The Matrix, as do most of you LD dreaming types without paying an iota of attention to the content of the film. So, Neo, says to all those dominated, ensconsced, enslaved in body pods feeding the Matrix energy system, "It's all up to you babes!"

If nothing else maybe I can get you to quite abusing the reference to that film which you know utterly nothing about.

Hummer

You come along and behave as if we lucid dreaming types would all refuse to save humankind from the evil aliens holding us in pods and feeding us the Matrix.
We wouldn't eat gruel and finally do something??
Hummer - these things are fiction!! As much as they fascinate you, Inception as well - they are not reality.

Originally Posted by Hummer

StephL

"Mostly Oriental people, who don't do their religious service properly get killed by Satan in their dreams? My bad"

What do I do with this sentence, these sentences? "My bad?" What exactly do you mean? Do you know? I doubt it.

Yes, people, even...Orientals are being killed in their dreams. Cripes there may be hundreds, thousands of white, middle class Americans killed in their dreams by the same syndrome only we have no SUNDS tradition -- instead we call it...sudden death in sleep, a heart attack, a stroke, "oh, he or she simply stopped breathing." We have no idea what horrific presence was there to steal the soul, heart, psyche.

No dreams, no investigation, no nothing. No challenge from folks like you dreaming your lucid steak dreams. No curiosity about what the heck it might actually mean that "God" flooded the entire planet to eliminate a whole kind of person, dreamer in favor of another kind of person, dreamer who does not dare to explore down into the basement where the "red pill" takes you.

Tell me a red pill dream and what you are doing about it and maybe I will have some respect for you.

Hummer

"My bad" is an expression, I stole from a Welsh mate of mine - he tends to utter it in situations, when he can hardly believe, what he is hearing, and in a bad way. Thought, it was English - but then - maybe it's just him.

Why do you think is it, that people usually don't die in their sleep, when they are not yet old people, and not really young babies any more?
Does the devil prefer grannies and babies??
Oh - I forgot - riight - the middle-aged do their rituals properly, is it?

You really seem to believe we were some secretly powerful group, meeting up in our dreams and doing whatnot.
We are not - every single one of us dreams lucid in and only in her head - there is no Matrix like in the movie - don't misunderstand philosophical debates as something actually tangible out there.

And now we should also start investigate, why a fairy-tale god supposedly committed genocide on his first batch?
Come on!!
He didn't - the flood is a stolen older myth and it didn't take place.
A local flood somewhere will have inspired people - and for them the world might have ended behind the farthest visible mountain.
There could not possibly have been a world-wide flood - it is completely illogical and contradicts everything we have in terms of science - even common sense alone should suffice - no geologists needed.
There's a thread on Noah in the religion subforum - fits better there to expound on that further, if somebody feels a need.

You come across like an almost militant wanna-believe-everything-at-once and accuse us people of not using "our powers".
Once more - we don't have any powers - we just dream lucidly - and that is truly extraordinary and wonderful and great - all that without your free-roaming superstitions.

You wonder why there are no red-pill dreams, about which you would so love to read to satisfy your thirst for sensationalism?
Well guess why that would be! rolleyes.gif

StephL
Thanks for the reply, clarification of "my bad," I thought it was a typo!

I do see the Matrix bandied about a whole lot here and yet I see scant attention paid to the actual script or plot of the film and almost none to the fact the Neo's "out of Matrix" life is really tough, not wonderful "lucid dreaming."

No, I do not believe you are a secret, powerful group, rather one capable of forgetting the "true," of reality in favor of something called "lucid dreaming."

I do believe there was a "flood," which created the unconscious as a place where "God," do you see that is in quotes? could create black sites in order to do just about what ever "He" wanted to do. Including the use of dreamers as slaves as per Joseph in the book of Genesis. "Energy pods."

Lucid dreaming that cuts away that past is, for me, an escape up from snuffed.

In my opinion it doesn't work.

Hummer

I feel like I could get dragged into a debate on this but let's face it the answer to OPs question is really easy, it's

NO!

Originally Posted by LucidMoon

I feel like I could get dragged into a debate on this but let's face it the answer to OPs question is really easy, it's

NO!

Easy for anybody, who doesn't believe in Satan anyway!
Around 60% of Americans do believe in an actual personal devil, though - and from that perspective it is a vitally important question. Not to forget the worldwide 2 billion Catholics.



It's pretty vitally important to drop that perspective, I would say!

Originally Posted by LucidMoon

I feel like I could get dragged into a debate on this but let's face it the answer to OPs question is really easy, it's

NO!

This. All the off-topic stuff is hurting my head, think I'll keep it simple and stick to rocket science

It's only as satanic as waking life, or any stray imagination or is this implying people cant fantasize without invoking satan.

(cheeky) While Christians, atheists, and others may have an opinion, wouldn't satanists be the only credible source? If a satanist says it's satanical, then it's satanical. Just that cold, Jim. How you interpret the consequence of it being satanical is another matter.

Sisyphus--
Not that this is relevant to all these NOs! here but there are a whole lot of ways in which Satan, Lucifer, can be seen as the hero or "whistle blower" on a system in which the CEO of the Heavenly Company has a secret covenant with the Dark Side.

I am much more of that opinion, which, in the probably limited range of this discussion, is not particularly relevant. But, it, this topic, brings up a whole lot of energy.

Hummer

StephL--
You ask so many questions it is not possible to respond to them all.

No, there is not a "malignant being" as you call it which is why I put it in quotes. There is a program that is used and worshipped by more than a billion people, more than half the planet. This program, if you take the time to read the story of Joseph delivers dreaming and all meanings of dreams to said deity (program) in quotes. Much of that book, the Bible is about dreaming and control over it -- in my opinion. I am not going to provide you with chapter and verse -- if you are interested just type in Joseph on Google.

My experience with the Flood is personal, not a theory, not something I can refer to a site for you. My experience of black sites is personal, not something I can provide chapter and verse on -- I mean particular dreams, the red pill variety I am not going to share with you in this hostile context, thanks.

You are responding to questions I asked of Nailer, I do not know why. I would prefer you didn't do so, makes thing confusing.

Thanks, I don't need to watch the Matrix again. As I said somewhere else it isn't about dreaming, it's about computers, "machines gone bad" as you say.

It seems to me you are so...frightened because you might have to give up some of the "magic" the machines, like the machines of the body, because it just might be there is a "program" out there that needs to be identified, fought. There might be a shield of Athena protecting all kinds of powers and secrets that can turn you to stone for trespassing. It's much easier to call that "sp" and get on with the...videogame of dreaming which, from what I understand has no consequences in the real world.

Not a kind of dreaming I want, thanks--

Hummer

Sorry Hummer.
I'll keep off you now.
I just hope you don't scare people off LDing or even sleep.

StephL
I thought we were going interesting directions with the Scientology discussion -- that was you wasn't it?

And I think there are interesting directions we could pursue. I felt overwhelmed by your last response.

Something that can be done by lucid or conscious dreamers involving "Scientology" is to audit something for accuracy or engrams, what have you. This entire discussion on is LD dreaming satanic? could be "audited" in that fashion without any fear of Scientology as a thing, Religion, which it is not. It is, in my opinion, an interesting addition to tool chest of a lucid or conscious dreamer.

I am very impressed with your use of the tool chest here to respond with. All I can do is type. Maybe you can help me out a bit?

What do you mean by "spoiler?"

Hummer

@StephL mostly

I am not going to be doing any quoting, but this should answer all your questions. It should also (hopefully) make Christianity seem a little more clear to you.

Why Christians Cannot Be Possessed?

This one is quite easy actually. After reading your posts I don't see a single mention of Him. So we talk a lot as Christians about the “Big man upstairs” and the “Messiah”, but there is the third member of the trinity... The Holy Spirit. As soon as someone asks for Him, He comes in a possesses you.

The Bible is pretty clear about humans having free will (If you ask me) so the only way to lose free will is to give it to something. You cannot have it stolen. I give my will to God, He gives me The Holy Spirit as a guide to His Will. Can't have God with sin, so Jesus has taken all of my sins, can't have God with sin, so no other entity could be inside of me either.

What Does The Bible Mean When It Says “Witchcraft”?

Biggest rule of literal interpretations of the Bible:
What did the original author mean when he sent it to the original recipient?

Ok so you take something like Psalms. Songs to God. I can take that as just that, maybe some “epic foreshadowing, but I can't take it away from that context. John, written to everyone that you might believe. Etc.

So we look at “witchcraft” as it is mentioned in the Bible and what the original author meant, and we come up with 3 things:

People who prophesied from other gods about the future
People who tried to speak to the dead
Pharmakeia (most common) (People who tried to speak to spirits with herbs and plants... you know... Pharmacy? )

Not really Lding specific. So this moves Lding into another category:
Food Sacrificed before idols.

Before I get into that, I am going to talk a little about sin, since ya'll seem to be mislead about that as well.

Sin Defined

James 4:17 actually gives you a straight up definition of sin
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

So wait! If you don't know it is wrong, then you aren't accountable for it? Is this the only verse in The Bible that says this? What about the people in Africa! Or people in Europe and Asia before Jesus died that don't know anything about the Bible?
Romans 5:13
for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law

So sin isn't just doing wrong. It is knowing wrong and doing it. Let's take this to the beginning and see if it works.

God makes Adam and Eve and only one rule:
Don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.
So they only have one law to uphold. Sin in this world can only be done by breaking that one law. They broke it, but the tree had an after effect, it let them know of the other sins around, and they would now be held accountable to this.

Why is there Judgement?

So we take things back to the very beginning, and why did God make judgment for sin? Why not just let it slide? God makes things in an orderly fashion. Let's move this over to Lding terms.

You create a universe in your head. You make rules, you say E = MC^3 instead of squared because you are the boss. Now there is tons and tons of rules to make (you know the scientific laws) and one of them is called “The law of reaping and sewing” You reap what you sew. So if you choose to sew carrots, voila, you get carrots. However there are three rules inside the rule of reaping and sewing:
You reap:
what you sew
more than you sew
later than you sew

think about it... ok good. Hosea says that if you sew to the wind, you will reap the whirlwind. Haha.

Ok, so God has these rules, and one of them is this “if you break the law you will be judged by the law” He created the one law at the beginning “don't eat of the tree” and they ate, so they sewed to the knowledge of good and evil, and sin and they reaped more knowledge of good and evil and sin.

So sin entered the world, and death. Now God's rules for being with Him are simple “nothing that is against Him can reside with Him” Frick. That is everyone now that sin is in the world. Being a just God, he has to uphold the justice of the land that he set in place at the beginning. So people die, and after death, judgment. God always has a plan though because he is in past, present, and future. So what was His plan? He had another rule that was made, a loophole if you will. Blood can cover sin. Problem is, is that it has to be pure blood of someone undefiled by sin. Many will say here that the blood of bulls and goats covered the sin of people in the Old Testament. Not true. Hebrews 10:4

So Jesus comes to take away the sins of all, because no matter what any man wanted before, he wouldn't be able to get to God. Jesus takes away sin in the past, present, and future, so all you have to do now is believe in him. John 3:16, or a better translation would be trust. It is not works, and I will explain why.

What do you need to do to be any religion? The first thing is to actually put your trust in it, and then you have a list of duties to do in order to get your sins removed. As a Christian is to simply trust in Jesus. Simple? I hope so.

Verses that people leave out too much are the verses right after John 3:16 (this is verses 17-21)
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

You mention God judging our every thought and judging Christians, there is no judgment for those in Christ. All my sins are gone.

A true Christian would want to please God, and that if we truly believe, we will have a desire to change to be more like God. James says “Faith without works is dead”, giving the idea that if someone truly trusts in God, he will be changed, and want to please God.

Meat sacrificed before idols

In Romans, we are told of meat sacrificed before idols. It is a type of meat that was sacrificed to gods in a city and then it was put on the market as a way to please their god. Some Christians said “there is no way I am going to eat something that was sacrificed to an idol”, and some said “It doesn't matter if they set it aside for their gods, I can eat it.” Paul tells them that they can do whichever they want, to some that it was a way that they left in the past it might be hard for them to do without wanting to revert to their old life, to others, it was just meat. So he said to make sure that you don't do something to make someone stumble, but all in all, there is nothing wrong with it. So anything not mentioned directly in the Bible not to do (Fornication, stealing, lying, etc) is free game, it is for man to decide between him and God.

You ask me what my teachers would say.

My head pastor trusts my judgment and doesn't care.

Ok, so continuing with the story (I get sidetracked). We needed a sacrifice of pure undefiled blood. We got it, and it was Jesus. He laid down his life so that there would be no judgment for those in Christ.

A little bit of a summary:
God makes the world and gives man dominion of it.
Man screws up.
God fixes it.

You want to know why God would send you to hell, but what I think is interesting is that you hate God and want nothing to do with him, so He is just giving you what you want, an eternity away from Him, and all things good (all good things come from God).

Hope this clears things up for you! Sorry for all the delay. It is a lot for me to get to the computer, I actually really need to take a nap right now. If I didn't answer some questions, then I apologize.

I am sorry that you have so much hatred towards Christianity, I feel like a Christian wronged you in the past, we are not supposed to be judgmental, but extending love to all so that people might see our love and glorify God in heaven. Sometimes Christians don't act like they should, or they act out from bad teaching and misinformation. The most common is obviously how many Christians treat gays and lesbians. While a Christian should not do something that displeases God (lev 18:22), that does not mean that we should hold non Christians to the standards God holds us to. We are to extend grace and then show people how to achieve peace. Not the other way around. I love you and hope that you understand Christians a little more.

Just Remembered!
Having sex with my wife in a dream like masturbation? Maybe. The Bible doesn't really straight up say anything about masturbation, but it does say that "whoever looks at a woman and lusts after her is an adulterer at heart" which is the main reason people (other than catholics) are anti-masturbation. So...
1) I don't think that I can "lust" after my wife, since she is the person I should be imagining sex with
2) I still don't like the idea of masturbating whether to the idea of my wife or otherwise, but I think you might notice a trend in my dream journal of leaving out details (especially my thoughts) and thinking that DCs are real people. So I often think that I am actually having "dream sex" with my wife, because I am confused and less aware. Sometimes I simply cannot resist my dream wife because she is freaking sexy. I don't really have any guilt about it, though I do try to avoid it because dream time is precious and I can "Get some" in waking more than I LD.

More on the subject of what we think. What a man thinks in his heart (mind) so is he.

Huge Thank You Sensei - I will come back to it in a while - also to your post, Hummer.

Just shortly - a spoiler is a way to post something, without the wall of text being instantly visible - like for off-topic things, not to overly disturb the flow of the thread - I should use it more often, actually.
Once you click on the field saying "show" - you get to see the text.

The name 'spoiler' comes from situations like the following:
If you want to post something about a movie for example, but you want to make sure, that you don't spoil the movie for a person yet to watch it - you hide the respective text with such a thing. It's an option under "Go Advanced" - looks like a double square.
So if this person simply doesn't click on it - she can watch the movie, without knowing everything up front.
By the way - if you wanted to multi-quote - you would click on the little '+' sign next to the "Reply With..".
And then the blue oval to the left under the last post - "+ Reply to Thread" it says.

I find a lot in your post quite bizarre Sensei, to be honest - but for now I'd like to tackle the matter of witchcraft on the basis of the three points, you provided me with. I think, my post suffices - I could go hunt bible quotes myself, though, and ask you how you come to know, how an author has meant something.
After more than a thousand years and translations and Catholic councils deciding around the 5th century, what goes in the bible and what not. And also in general - these people thought completely differently from us. Don't you notice that in the language? Right - sorry - witchcraft:

Originally Posted by Sensei

So we look at “witchcraft” as it is mentioned in the Bible and what the original author meant, and we come up with 3 things:

People who prophesied from other gods about the future
People who tried to speak to the dead
Pharmakeia (most common) (People who tried to speak to spirits with herbs and plants... you know... Pharmacy? )

Not really Lding specific. So this moves Lding into another category:
Food Sacrificed before idols.

Let’s see - is there a connection between LDing and these points – are they maybe intimately entwined with LDing?
It is implied that such feats are indeed possible - it wouldn't have to be forbidden, if it wouldn't work.
Lucid dreaming clearly is, and has been for ages, and all over the globe, the practice to do just exactly the things, you mentioned above.

If I wanted to contact spirits and the dead and have precognition - I would use LDing in the same way, that famous witches and sorcerers like Castaneda before me have.

Did you hear of Helena Blavatski?
She coined the term astral projection (AP) - that was her occult practice among other things like seances - a very famous self-declared witch.
The very concept and practice of WILD has her signature all over it, if you check the internet.
There are so many more – just look into “Beyond Dreaming” on here for examples.

Coincidence??
I think not – and I could go on and on.

Again:
Modern occult practice and old pagan religions traditionally see Lucid Dreaming as a means, even the actual portal to:

* come to precognitive experiences (how can you be sure, who provides them?)
* to talk to dead relatives
* to speak with spirits
* And - many people use some sort of supplement, including herbs, including ones traditionally used in religious ceremonies of "paganism".

There is serious science being done on connections between dreams, and especially lucid ones, and the substance DMT - which is the main ingredient of Ayahuasca. And consuming this herbal mix is allowed in certain parts of South America - guess for whom?
For somebody belonging to the Ayahuasca religion - however it's really called.
Taking it, is their religious practice, and scientists have reasons to believe the experience is of a kind with LDing.
So there.

I would be really careful with LDing, if my soul depended on you, Sensei, understanding the criteria better than me!
Especially since you - wisely - don't tell your professor about it - you are not yet fully ordained, are you?
I don't want to spoil LDing for you - I hope I can't.
What do you think?

Spoiler for For Hummer and whomever ..:

OBE is the neutral term and it means Out of Body Experience - however brought about causally. astral projection (AP) is the mystical term. WILD is Wake Initiated LD - going from awake directly into the LD, which tends to come in a way, that the dreamer dreams a replica of his sleeping room, for one, and it can be experienced, as if you would leave a "physical body" with your dream-body, but both bodies are dreamt up.
Once you think Blavatzki and AP - you can dream yourself a silver chord as well.
More common is simply starting the WILD with dreaming of getting up from bed with your usual dream-body - not having to "separate" and no chords. You get what you expect - and in WILD, you expect to be in your room and awake and lying in bed, still. I hope, I make sense here.

Disclaimer: I do not believe in gods nor witchcraft, just to make sure

What is the church you belong to called, Sensei - something evangelical and fundamentalist, I would guess?

I wonder - must not the church be the ultimate authority concerning all things to do with soul and mind?
So why don't they teach lucid dreaming - why don't they even know about it?
Or do they??
If so, why not ask? If not, how come they are ignorant of such a monumentally different state of being?
Especially while other religions do deal with it and at times centrally.

Either they don't know overly much after all - or they consider it witchcraft and keep knowledge under the lid.
Which shall it be?