Thread: How to differentiate the waking at the end or the middle of a REM

I have a different solution for this, guys: stop caring about REM.

Seriously.

Things like concern about REM period timing, attempting to recognize during the dream when it is ending, basically assuming -- thanks to all those helpful "experts" on the web -- that REM periods are assigned a specific amount of time and cannot be prolonged, and assuming that you are required to wake up after REM, only serve to muddle your LD's with needless worry, and elevates REM to a status it likely does not deserve.

I, for one, have never had a problem with REM periods or dreams ending. Sure, I've prematurely woken during my LD's plenty of times, but if I want to stay in the LD I simply DEILD back in, without any concern about whether I am still in REM or not... yet somehow I almost always wind up back in a dream. I've continued DEILD chains for as long as 5 hours without seeing (or having concern about) my REM period's end, and I have stretched individual dreams for well over an hour without DEILD: shouldn't either of these things be impossible if REM periods define the length of our dreams by lasting a specific, predetermined amount of time?. I've done all these things and never once thought "Oh, it's been more than 90 minutes, so REM and my dream must be finishing soon," or "Oh shoot, the imagery is fading; REM -- and my LD -- must be ending now."

Sure, that last paragraph was all an "I, for one" anecdotal statement, but I have heard similar from many other dreamers, and these sort of things were considered normal before popular websites and various experts began to spend more time trying to define the LD'ing experience than trying to experience the LD'ing experience.

REM, along with every other human function, does not last a precise or predetermined amount of time during your sleep cycle. All those numbers and charts you see are averages, and not universal laws. Dreams fade for many reasons other than an end to a REM period (i.e., a long LD tends to tax your unconscious dreaming engine, so sometimes it might just take a pause while it spools up a new scene or plot. Also, your body might be waking up for some other reason, and your dream is fading as part of the process -- even though you are still in your REM period) . If you try to approach prolonging your LD's (or, rather, enjoying lengthy stretches of lucidity) by establishing limits like REM periods ending, then you will wind up worrying about those limits during the dream, even if they are not an issue.

Yes, you will see your dream fade occasionally, and sometimes there will be nothing you can do about it (other than wake up and do a DEILD, of course). And yes, REM periods do end. But, thanks to expectation, worrying about the fades, and trying during the dream to anticipate the end of your REM period will only invite its conclusion (or, perhaps, a dream about its conclusion). LD'ing is all about maintaining a calm sense of self-awareness in the here & now; if you start worrying about what will happen in the future, you are doing little more than asking what you are worrying about to manifest now.

tl;dr: REM periods are fluid things that can be extended, returned to, and above all fully ignored. If you learn to avoid wasting your moments of lucidity on imagined barriers like the end of your REM period, then you will find your dreams much more enjoyable, and maybe lasting a bit longer.

As long as I'm here:

Originally Posted by MadzAssassin

Yes please answer thiiiiiiissss someone! I think if you wake up and have SP, ten your in your REM period. But you don't always get SP from waking up in your REM. So a distinct feeling for each would be nice.

I think I made my "SP doesn't matter" speech to you on another thread, so I'll keep this short: I highly recommend that you do not use SP as a definer for anything in your LD practice. Yes, people who suffer from actual Sleep Paralysis can use it, upon waking, as a tool for lucidity, but most of us (like, 90% or more of us) will rarely if ever "wake up and have SP," so looking for it does not make much sense. Also, you can have still SP after your REM period has ended (indeed, I'm pretty sure that that is basically what actual SP is, BTW: the continuing of Rem Atonia after your mind has left REM and woken up), so even if you find yourself in SP upon waking, you might not be in REM.

Again: Enjoy your dream in a real Here & Now sort of way, try not to concern yourself with what might happen next, and you might in time find your LD's lasting longer, surviving brief fades & wake-ups, and generally much more fun.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I have a different solution for this, guys: stop caring about REM.

Seriously.

Things like concern about REM period timing, attempting to recognize during the dream when it is ending, basically assuming -- thanks to all those helpful "experts" on the web -- that REM periods are assigned a specific amount of time and cannot be prolonged, and assuming that you are required to wake up after REM, only serve to muddle your LD's with needless worry, and elevates REM to a status it likely does not deserve.

I, for one, have never had a problem with REM periods or dreams ending. Sure, I've prematurely woken during my LD's plenty of times, but if I want to stay in the LD I simply DEILD back in, without any concern about whether I am still in REM or not... yet somehow I almost always wind up back in a dream. I've continued DEILD chains for as long as 5 hours without seeing (or having concern about) my REM period's end, and I have stretched individual dreams for well over an hour without DEILD: shouldn't either of these things be impossible if REM periods define the length of our dreams by lasting a specific, predetermined amount of time?. I've done all these things and never once thought "Oh, it's been more than 90 minutes, so REM and my dream must be finishing soon," or "Oh shoot, the imagery is fading; REM -- and my LD -- must be ending now."

Sure, that last paragraph was all an "I, for one" anecdotal statement, but I have heard similar from many other dreamers, and these sort of things were considered normal before popular websites and various experts began to spend more time trying to define the LD'ing experience than trying to experience the LD'ing experience.

REM, along with every other human function, does not last a precise or predetermined amount of time during your sleep cycle. All those numbers and charts you see are averages, and not universal laws. Dreams fade for many reasons other than an end to a REM period (i.e., a long LD tends to tax your unconscious dreaming engine, so sometimes it might just take a pause while it spools up a new scene or plot. Also, your body might be waking up for some other reason, and your dream is fading as part of the process -- even though you are still in your REM period) . If you try to approach prolonging your LD's (or, rather, enjoying lengthy stretches of lucidity) by establishing limits like REM periods ending, then you will wind up worrying about those limits during the dream, even if they are not an issue.

Yes, you will see your dream fade occasionally, and sometimes there will be nothing you can do about it (other than wake up and do a DEILD, of course). And yes, REM periods do end. But, thanks to expectation, worrying about the fades, and trying during the dream to anticipate the end of your REM period will only invite its conclusion (or, perhaps, a dream about its conclusion). LD'ing is all about maintaining a calm sense of self-awareness in the here & now; if you start worrying about what will happen in the future, you are doing little more than asking what you are worrying about to manifest now.

tl;dr: REM periods are fluid things that can be extended, returned to, and above all fully ignored. If you learn to avoid wasting your moments of lucidity on imagined barriers like the end of your REM period, then you will find your dreams much more enjoyable, and maybe lasting a bit longer.

As long as I'm here:


I think I made my "SP doesn't matter" speech to you on another thread, so I'll keep this short: I highly recommend that you do not use SP as a definer for anything in your LD practice. Yes, people who suffer from actual Sleep Paralysis can use it, upon waking, as a tool for lucidity, but most of us (like, 90% or more of us) will rarely if ever "wake up and have SP," so looking for it does not make much sense. Also, you can have still SP after your REM period has ended (indeed, I'm pretty sure that that is basically what actual SP is, BTW: the continuing of Rem Atonia after your mind has left REM and woken up), so even if you find yourself in SP upon waking, you might not be in REM.

Again: Enjoy your dream in a real Here & Now sort of way, try not to concern yourself with what might happen next, and you might in time find your LD's lasting longer, surviving brief fades & wake-ups, and generally much more fun.

Oh I am not worried SP. I just thought that when you wake up in SP, then you most likely woke up during your REM.