Thread: Sleep paralysis

Hey beebeeb13, welcome to DreamViews!

To tell you the truth, you don't actually use lucidity to break out of "sleep paralysis" (better known as "REM Atonia, a natural state where the body shuts down for sleep, and we're sometimes aware of it), and in fact, you can utilize being aware of this REM Atonia to help you get lucid in the first place. So you had it backwards. Which is ok, because there's a lot of gobbledygook out there about sleep paralysis, and it doesn't help anyone get lucid at all.

Here's a great thread to help you on this subject: http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...into-wild.html

Right, let me get this straight, lucidity is a state of awareness in dreaming yes? A state of dreaming where the dreamer knows exactly what's happening yes? That gives the dreamer a level of control yes? If that perceived level of control is taken, but awareness remain, well in that case how is it not this awareness that is then used to break out of the dream? For example, when you find yourself stuck paralysed and silently screaming in terror, in your own surroundings and no sign of your typical "dream landscape" but completely aware it's "not real" is it not then this state of awareness used to break out? When you have to force yourself to wiggle a toe or alike. I've experienced the difference between lucid dreaming and "REM Atonia" as you called it. I have literally lucid dreamed pretty much every dream I've ever had, I honestly thought it was the norm for everyone. I've only very recently discovered it's not. Maybe my question was poorly worded but I think you misunderstood it's meaning to an extent. But that's ok. I'm no expert of this subject, but I AM speaking from personal experience. So maybe my terminology could use some help.

Hi beebeeb13!

REM atonia is one the things that sometimes happen when we sleep. It is not a fake sensation - the brain simply disconnects itself from the body so not to act out our dreams. Sleep paralysis refers to when you wake up but still in REM atonia so that this disconnect is still present. Doesn't matter if you see HH (hypnogogic hallucinations) on top of that or not... What matters is that you literally wake up into a very brief period of actual paralysis (full or partial). Trying to wiggle your way out of it does help but only because it reminds the brain to reconnect itself to the body... Actual sleep paralysis is pretty rare and usually last a few seconds even if you don't fight it... So, I hope this explanation makes it clear why lucid dreams don't have anything to do with SP - SP isn't a dream sensation, it's an actual brief pralysis of the real body.
Btw, if you end up in sleep paralysis it might help you to be lucid in a dream because you don't need to make the body fall asleep all over again. It's already asleep so the dream might start faster. That's the only connection between LDs and SP.

Also, about lucid dreaming - it's not about control and it's not about being aware of your environment (the dream scape) and it's not about things in the dream being vivid or realistic. Lucid dreaming is about being aware of your REAL LIFE experiences while you are in the dream, and being able to differenciate between RL experiences and dream experiences (whether the current dream, a recalled dream, or false memories). So being lucid means being able to have the two distinct "realities" on your mind, and being aware of the difference between them.

For example, recently I had a dream about lucid dreaming. I was attending a meeting of lucid dreamers in a shared dream - that was the plot of the dream. So technically I knew I was dreaming, because I believed that I was in a dream, in which I meet other lucid dreamers in a shared dream setting... I even had the illusion that I have total control there - could teleport and levitate and such. However, despite my "knowledge" that I was dreaming, it was NOT a lucid dream. I was NOT truly lucid there. Why? Because I could not differenciate RL from the dream. I wasn't truly aware of my REAL LIFE. In fact I had false memories about falling asleep so I can get to that meeting...

Hope this helps!

I don't know about using my abilities as a lucid dreamer to break out of REM Atonia, but I've never experienced a time where I couldn't break out of REM Atonia. Either my mind isn't very good as inhibiting signals from going out of the brain and down the spinal cord, or others experience the inability to move because they are panicking. Actually, it isn't either or, I'm sure it could be a combination of both, but I have always believed the state of terror and panic as being what gives you the least control over yourself (this holds true in waking life too--if you let fear grip and consume you, you are not able to control your actions). Something else curious about when I experience REM Atonia (which, by the way, I usually don't have much trouble finding a way to stay aware through it if I really want to, so I've got plenty of experiences built up now where this is true) is that my eyes are never open. They have never been open a single time, and I never see anything while I'm experiencing it. I sometimes hear things (not as often, more like 30% of the time), only get vibrations about 70% of the time, and the only thing that consistently happens every time is that my body is moving through space significantly in some way. I have had REM Atonia where I have experienced things like having my limbs shake violently while being pulled from their sockets and my teeth feeling like they were being wrenched out and I could taste the blood from doing the wrenching. That particular time was probably the one that got me to think REM Atonia was cool. See, just like in my dreams, I didn't feel any real pain from it. Something was telling me I should be feeling pain, but the pain wasn't painful, it was like experiencing somebody else feel the pain. Same goes for dreams.

Anyway, if you find your abilities as a natural lucid dreamer allow you to break out of a difficult REM Atonia experience then that's great, it would be nice if everyone could. I like the experiences myself, but other than get weird one's like I wrote out, I just fall backwards endlessly. Guess I don't have much to be afraid of compared to the people seeing demons.

You don't want to break out from SP/REM attonia. We are in REM attonia when we are in REM and when we are in REM we are dreaming. REM is good, dreaming is good, and being immobilized while dreaming is good. REM attonia/SP is an involuntary action. Just as digestion is. When we eat, our digestion starts and we don't have to do a damn thing about it. We start to dream, we get REM attonia. Here is more about the confusion:
http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...ml#post2185420

Unless you have a medical condition that puts you in sleep paralysis when you are not in REM, you will not notice SP. SP starts only AFTER you start dreaming. By then you are already asleep and either having a non-lucid dream, or you are WILDing and having a lucid dream. In both cases you don't notice the SP.

SP is condition our body starts to immobilize us when we are dreaming, so we don't hurt ourselves. It's when we can't move at all, no matter how hard we try. It's not when it's really hard to move because our body is so relaxed and we don't really want or care to move.

When our body is falling asleep it comes with all kinds of weird sensation. We normally don't notice them because our mind is falling asleep almost at the same time as body does. But when we WILD, our mind stays aware and we notice them.

They can be tactile, auditory, sensory or visual. We can feel, see, hear things like vibrations, body getting lighter/heavier, all kinds of tingling, relaxation sensation, falling down, sinking through bed, hearing all kinds of different sounds, seeing images or even movies. These can also happen when we are in SP because we are in REM and dreaming, but they don't happen because we are in SP. They happen because body is falling asleep. The only indicator of SP - sleep paralysis - is when we can't move no matter what.

The confusion started years ago before any good information from Lucid dreamers was available. When all "scary stuff" happening while falling asleep was thrown into one bag and labeled SP.

But now we know better as you can see in these 2 threads put together by our members with decades of experience in lucid dreaming and sleeping (haha).
http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...explained.html
http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...mystified.html

To all the good folks that are replying to questions on this forum - I thank you. I would like to invite you, the new generation of lucid dreamers and helpers on this forum to helps us dispel the myth of SP.

SP (REM Atonia) it's an involuntary action and will happen whether we notice it or not, right at the proper time when it's suppose to. It doesn't matter if we notice it or not.

It's not a LDing goal or something we need to reach in order to move forward in the WILDing attempt. In fact, trying to reach SP will hamper your WILDing, because you may never notice it, not even once in your whole life. Not even when you are WILDing or DEILDing and you in fact are in SP because you are in REM.

But if you happen to notice that you can't move no matter what, you can try some motionless RCs or just roll out of the bed or stand up with your dream body. But anyway, those are instructions for a normal WILD : P

Thanks guys.. I can tell you've all got far more info on the subject than me. Like I said before my terminology isn't quite up to scratch. Like I said before I'm just speaking from real experience and whatever catigories that experience may fall under, really I was just looking for anyone who had experienced something similar. (Thank you snoop! . It's something that happens to me when waking, I'll exit the lucid dream and enter real life surroundings. By this I mean my eyes are open. But I'll keep an element of the dream, for example trying to scream soundlessly when I know I don't really need to because I'll know there is no real life threat. So I'll force myself through the screaming to wiggle a finger or toe and boom, I'm out. I always know the dream isn't my waking life. Everyone is different I suppose, and honestly I'm terrible at accurately describing what it is I'm experiencing so any confusion I'm causing here I understand.

Hey, terminology aside, just because you don't use the same lingo doesn't mean it's hard to understand or incomprehensible, some people cling to words, others to meanings, both are important.
I grew up having sleep para., nightly. I didn't know at the time, the awesomeness that could be done from that state, so I developed a wake to break out of it(ie. loose the paralysis.) It took an intense amount of focus on a singular part of the body. Later on I learned how to LD/AP from that state, rather than freak out, just relax into it, and had many an awesome experience. It's one of the main ways I LD now a days, as it's so common. Have you ever had your eyes open during sp?

Hey one of many, this is true! People just didn't seem to quite be grasping what I was getting at, but maybe not! I appreciate the input either way!

See I'm the opposite I grew up lucid generally just believing it to be the norm. But then I started slipping into sp in the very early morning after being lucid. It was literally like being in between. I've learnt not to freak out now (as much). This was really a few years ago before I knew what any of this was. It really was disconcerting the first time it happened though. My eyes have been open pretty much every time! I agree with you on relaxing into it though. I think fear grips you more than any dream can!

I think I see what you mean, where if you're trapped in a nightmare and can't move. Then if you're able to become lucid and convince yourself it's a dream, you can wake up from it, or change the dream. I was thinking of the state of paralysis that is one of the transitional phases from awake to asleep that we're sometimes aware of at the time it's happening. I think what you might be talking about is once a dream has already started, and you're dreaming that you're paralysed and it goes on for a while and a bunch of scary stuff happens. So yeah, lucidity would help with that.

I think we were both right but talking about 2 different things and I misread what you meant

Hey Beebeeb13,
There are particular studies that seem rife with that conflict of words<->meaning. Like in meditation, often times nothing happens till nothing happens.(There are two types of nothing, but often times it's more of an experiential knowledge/understanding than reading knowledge that brings the understanding.)

That's cool how you grew up lucid, it's not uncommon for believing one's experience to be the standard as it's a personal perspective of delineation.

"Being in between" is an apt phrase, I'd liken it to that as well. I don't remember the first time it happened for me, but do remember it wasn't till I was in my teens did I learn not to fear sp, then how to use it. Usually my eyes are closed, but open is fun too! I definitely agree with you on fear.

I've never used sp as a propellant in the way you describe, I'm going to read over it some more as I'm interested in applying it in you way for experimentation. It makes sense, and hey, I'm always looking to broaden my repertoire. Thanks!

^^ I'm starting to realise this lol. It seems there's much debate about what is and is not possible. I think it's important for people not to discredit new info just because it doesn't necessarily fit neatly within the confines of what is already known. Open mindedness is the key to discovery and all that. There's definitely no black and white/right or wrong answers here. No two people can ever truly know if they've experienced the same.. I agree with you 100%.

Exactly, it can be hard to relate when my norm seems so far removed from the norm for others! Not that I'd change it, and it's great to chat to people with similar experiences!

Great idea! I think there's a hell of a lot left to learn on the subject, so why not! Hope it goes well. Be sure to post a thread with any findings

I just read some of the other posts..lol. Sometimes it's just nice to ask a question and not get slammed with jargon, or having to add weight to your position just to get through all the formalities, flash your official SP card. Yes, I mean REM Attonia, yes, it's a medical condition, yes, it's involuntary, yes, god can we now talk about the meat of the stuff...beef aside. Anyway, I'd like to pick your brain. Just a couple days about, I was stuck lying there, 'tween. :rollseyes: If it's okay, I'd like to send you a pm, it's hard to find someone who's experienced with sp(SP/REM attonia), and doesn't fall into the usual trappings(sucked into the fear/incomprehension/lore/myths), I have a couple questions.

Anyway, yeah I hear ya. Personally, "it's not possible" is my battle cry. Also, "you can't do that!" just goads me. Like you said too, even with two people, how to tell if they've experienced the same, even with using the same words, context, there are nuances, information is lost, and speech/writing is a limited form of communication. It's tricky enough as it is, so it's refreshing to bump into someone who's aware of such things. Sometimes I'm so far removed from the norm, I question whether we are speaking the same language...literally, I'm using words, but just it's not working, enter mutual frustration or angst.

Not sure if I'll post any findings(you do it...trololol), it would be nice for a bunch of SPers to get together and make a constructive thread though, throw some alternatives, experiments,etc. It's one of those things that we as a collective haven't even scratched the surface of in terms of learning nor utilizing.

I've never met anyone to use sp like you do, I must know more. (If it's okay)

Originally Posted by OneofMany

I just read some of the other posts..lol. Sometimes it's just nice to ask a question and not get slammed with jargon, or having to add weight to your position just to get through all the formalities, flash your official SP card. Yes, I mean REM Attonia, yes, it's a medical condition, yes, it's involuntary, yes, god can we now talk about the meat of the stuff...beef aside. Anyway, I'd like to pick your brain. Just a couple days about, I was stuck lying there, 'tween. :rollseyes: If it's okay, I'd like to send you a pm, it's hard to find someone who's experienced with sp(SP/REM attonia), and doesn't fall into the usual trappings(sucked into the fear/incomprehension/lore/myths), I have a couple questions.

Anyway, yeah I hear ya. Personally, "it's not possible" is my battle cry. Also, "you can't do that!" just goads me. Like you said too, even with two people, how to tell if they've experienced the same, even with using the same words, context, there are nuances, information is lost, and speech/writing is a limited form of communication. It's tricky enough as it is, so it's refreshing to bump into someone who's aware of such things. Sometimes I'm so far removed from the norm, I question whether we are speaking the same language...literally, I'm using words, but just it's not working, enter mutual frustration or angst.

Not sure if I'll post any findings(you do it...trololol), it would be nice for a bunch of SPers to get together and make a constructive thread though, throw some alternatives, experiments,etc. It's one of those things that we as a collective haven't even scratched the surface of in terms of learning nor utilizing.

I've never met anyone to use sp like you do, I must know more. (If it's okay)

I would like that too! The entire post you did made my day~

it would be nice for a bunch of SPers to get together and make a constructive thread though, throw some alternatives, experiments,etc. It's one of those things that we as a collective haven't even scratched the surface of in terms of learning nor utilizing.

Just run it by staff first if you don't want it to be picked apart and moderated.

Saying "SP" is not ooooh so baaaad from our perspectives. It's just not a necessary step toward lucidity, nor is it something to be feared. We had a bit of grief over that in the past and would like to avoid it again in the future.

Yes one of many! See, you get it lol. Sometimes it's nice actually get to the point! To each their own though I suppose lol.. But yes feel free to message away! I'm more than happy to answer any questions! And I'll try to keep the answers meaty

EXACTLY. Thank you! I'm the same, the more someone tells me I can't, the more I'll prove I can. I'm other words I'm a stubborn ass, but I wear it proudly! Lol. It is absolutely refreshing, sometimes it can be a bit of a brick wall, it's so good to find someone willing to discuss things outside the "norm".

I'm absolutely up for that, the more the merrier! It would be good to see if anything similar can come from a collective of people!
No need to moderate, we'll be good promise I never once said to use SP as a tool to achieve lucidity. More that lucidity can be used as a tool to break out of the paralysis. But I understand your scepticism! We'll run anything by staff first.

Of course! I'm more than happy to talk

I would like that too! The entire post you did made my day~

That's very kind of you.

Just run it by staff first if you don't want it to be picked apart and moderated.[...]

lol. Duly noted.
I understand, the response here shows a marked history in griefing, and a desire to nip that nonsense in the bud; I'm just at times the reactions can get to a point where it weighs things down, are out of proportion, imbalanced, can get in the way of constructive dialog and push those who could contribute, away or spawn disinterest in the first place. I do agree how it's not necessary for lucidity nor to be feared, I don't agree with someone telling an SPer what is or not possible when I've done so since a kid. I'm more interested in talking from the perspective of SPers rather than outside-in,or lecturing, more like constructive tips from one friend to another. Akin to when LDers started grabbing the reigns and changing the face of dreaming, it's time to drop this nonsense on SPing. I don't hold any hard feelings, I just have a certain soapbox I stand on.

@Beebeeb13, Ikr. At a certain point in life, one gets tired of the fluff, it gets in the way of experiencing, each person reaches it in their own time. I want substance, constructive dialog, without having to pander towards egoic needs/wants/fears. I've never been in the "norm" even when I thought I was, so it's nice being able to relax, and not be crammed into a box.

I have a garden in the backyard full of "impossible" and a garage with more "can't be done in our zone." Life is good when you life off the spectrum. I have a soft spot for stubborn people, as well as willful folks, and eccentrics, they really help bring a fresh perspective, new ideas, and inspire me.

I'll do an open call for Spers to pm me, and we can do this collaboration together then submit our report for review/posting. Maybe give people a month to come out of the woodworks, then call it. Goal: a bunch of SPers to get together and make a constructive thread though, throw some alternatives, experiments,etc. Scratching at the walls of our understanding, see what we find just beyond. Sounds good?

I never once said to use SP as a tool to achieve lucidity. More that lucidity can be used as a tool to break out of the paralysis.

Exactly! It's a shift in perspective, that's incredibly poignant! IDK about not being accurate in describing your experiences, you have a very poetic way with words.
I'll compose my pm and send it your way.
Thanks I appreciate your input!

Before you guys go any further, please read the SP links in one of my posts above. Just to be sure you are all on the same page when talking about SP. Because naming things as SP that are not it is what caused most if not all the problems. And as opheliablue asked, don't start any threads about SP before running it by staff.

Ok, I'm just putting it out there now that your administration techniques are proving a little blunt and oppressive. I agree that everyone should be on the same page about what SP is, I didn't think there was ever any doubt? But please don't jump on people for having differing views, especially given we're both speaking from personal experience. We're not trying to spark debate or cause confusion, merely trying to gain some personal clarity. Where's the harm in that? I appreciate where your coming from but maybe try to be a little more open, as things are it's proving a little off putting. But that being said, as I stated before we'll run anything by you. Let's all get along yes?

OneOfMany I've read your message! Thanks I'll get a reply to you asap!

In defense of the mods, here's a little history:

Over the years SP had elevated itself to almost mythological importance across the LD'ing community, to the point where many (if not all) newbies were led to believe that SP is an integral, even vital, part of LD'ing. At the same time, that mythos included lots of scary stories about SP. So LD novices (and some not-so-novices as well) began to equate LD'ing with being scary and not worth attempting, because of the SP myth. So the mods got together a couple of years ago and saw to the creation of threads describing SP (and REM atonia, which is actually not SP, but is what most dreamers were calling SP, so there was a reason to point out the difference that rose above semantics and annoying terms). They did so in an attempt to clear up the myths before they completely damaged too many dreamers' journeys to lucidity, and not to annoy members with "correct" terminology, BTW. These are two of those threads, and I hope you guys will take a moment to check them out, just to see specifically what the mods are talking about:

Sleep Paralysis Explained

Sleep Paralysis Demystified

So, Beebee and OneofMany, I hope you guys will consider where the mods (and me, for that matter) are coming from when they try to put the brakes on speculation (or personal revelation) about SP that might lead to a renewed elevation of its importance to LD'ing, which will lead once more to many novices being frustrated because they are either unable to "reach SP," or lose interest in learning to LD for fear of SP. They are not giving you a hard time about terminology, but are deeply concerned that the SP problem does not regain the undeserved and destructive position of prominence it held here for years.

Also, I am sure that the mods are in no way questioning or denying your experience (I'm sure not); I'm just saying that your experience is indeed rare, and is not integral to the LD'ing process. I personally would be interested in seeing a "SP'er" thread developed (perhaps in the deep dreaming forum), so that you few who do experience the real thing can talk about it, and how it can be used in LD'ing and other things.

tl;dr: There is a reason the mods are being blunt and repetitive, guys, and it isn't to give you a hard time about specific terminology and definitions, or to corral you into their way of thinking. Rather, it is to do what they can to be sure that the SP myth -- and the wealth of misinformation that can accompany such a myth -- does not regain the troubling position it once held here, and that dreamers do not again begin misunderstanding SP as it relates to LD'ing. Also, nobody is questioning your experience.

Thanks for understanding, and apologies to Ophelia and Gab for butting in!


[EDIT: I forgot to mention that I'm sure that the mods were probably also trying to help you better understand your experience, Beebee, and were not trying to oppress your experience or views.]

Again, meathods are the issue here not motives. As I've said quite a few times now, ive never once insinuated that SP was a tool to induce LD. I'm not entirely sure why that keeps being misinterpreted. Such is life. However I maintain that it's off putting, this is literally my second day on site, not a great first impression. If you're blunt, that bluntness tends to come back. No hard feeling though hey, just putting it out there. I just doubt I'm the first to notice.
I think this has gone off subject now tbh. Never mind. I understand their reasons but the whole "don't do this" "don't do that" "no, not like that" attitude, I'm not entirely sure why it's necessary. It's not that I thought they were oppressing my experience, just the post in general. Again though, let's just get along yes? This is getting a bit repetitive.

I thought you came here to put names on experiences you have been having. And I bet you have not read the links.

Gab, that's absolutely not what I asked when I started this thread. I have thanks, but feel free to bet away, doesn't concern me. Have you even read what I said last? This is getting boring. 😑

If you want to continue arguing with staff, please post in Talk To Staff.

until communication is initiated with staff through the proper channels.