Thread: Dream ethics

unless you believe in a god that see's everything you do then no, ethics have no place in dreams, if you rape a woman then you wouldnt be hurting her or messing her up for life or anything... if you killed a kid you wouldnt be ending a life that he could have had.... its all just in your head and totally non-existant, thus making exactly like a videogame... no harm done to anyone whatsoever and the best part is that no one will ever know unless you tell them

Originally posted by kage23
since a dream is only in your head and not real, that ethics and morality don't really matter.

I completely agree with this, however you will find many on the forum who do not (this subject has been discussed before). Personally, I don't enjoy causing other people pain, even in dreams, so I don't really have any desire to hurt people as such in my lucid dreams. But if there's something I want to do that seems cool, and it would hurt some of my DCs in the process, I'd probably do it anyway.

What if you do believe in a god that sees everything you do? Then do you have to be moral and ethical in dreams, or are your waking/actual actions the only ones that would count for the final judgment or whatever?

Of course, even if you don't believe in any sort of god or judgment, you should still be moral and ethical in real life. It's only in the dreamworld that ethics are questionable and might not have to be followed.

I like what billybob said about it being like a videogame. I think many people use videogames to do things they couldn't or wouldn't do in real life and to relieve violent tendencies or thoughts (i.e. the GTA series). I think dreams can be used for the same purposes, to do things that you couldn't or wouldn't do in real life. Like, for example, if there's a hot girl that I want to sleep with, but never actually will, because it would devastate my girlfriend and I don't want to do that. However, if I met this girl in a dream, I could do anything I wanted to/with her and not have any consequences.

Dream characters never get hurt because they don't really exist. So killing, raping, and pillaging in your dreams may be OK, just make sure you pay attention to how these actions affect your own psychi.

In buddhism, there are days when you are supposed to observe pure moral discipline (or as moral as you can manage). Everytime you have an angry thought about someone, you address it, and try to work through it with compasion and wisdom so that it passifies the anger. During the night, while I was dreaming, I noticed that in the situations where I would be ripping people to shreds or something immoral, the discipline of my day carried over into my dream, and I stopped. I tend to think that the same thing happens from the dream world to the waking world.

During the night, while I was dreaming, I noticed that in the situations where I would be ripping people to shreds or something immoral, the discipline of my day carried over into my dream, and I stopped. I tend to think that the same thing happens from the dream world to the waking world.[/b]

So do you think dream actions affect karma?

dont get too worked up about whether or not you did something immoral in a dream, your brain doesnt function the same way while dreaming. so if part of your brain that makes you think ethically/morally is shut down during sleep, it can be pretty useless to think too much about why you were doing things you wouldnt normally think were all right

One of the reasons dreaming is so great is because you're free from ethics and laws. If you had to act as though you do in life a dream would be no fun. Not to say you should run around killing every person you see, but if you want to pop someone who's been bothering you for while, it may ease your nerves, and I don't see any problem. Running around stores eathing candy bars can be fun too(so my sister tells me)

The way I see it, if there is anything so terribly immoral that even is appauling to do in even a dream,(which i believe there is) then you SHOULDN'T have the urge to do it in a dream, otherwise I think you have other problems that need attending to. But I think we've all wanted to "dream-beat-the-crap-out-of" someone we know.

Originally posted by kage23
a dream is only in your head and not real, that ethics and morality don't really matter.

I disagree. I think dreams are real, not in the head, ethics should matter.

Ideally no one would do anything unethical in any dream, lucid or not. When one is in control of the dream and they do something bad, I see that as worse than if that person commits a terrible act when they are not in control of the dream. I guess it would take plenty of suggestion, but one might be able to be a happy peaceful dreamer all the time.

If we do that which is forbidden in the real world while we're dreaming, it loses its allure. We know that it's only wrong half of the time, so there's no motive to behave immorally in the real world.

If we do that which is forbidden in the real world while we're dreaming, it loses its allure. We know that it's only wrong half of the time, so there's no motive to behave immorally in the real world.[/b]

exactly! it gives us a chance to act out any violent or immoral urges in a safe environment, so we no longer have the urge in real life. i agree that ideally[/] no one would act unethically in a dream, because i think doing things like going on killing sprees is bad for your character, whether it's in real life or in a dream. but, should you wish to try it once to see what it's like, or get rid of someone that's been bothering you, that's fine. the world is not an ideal place. the dreamworld can be. i think the most basic thing a dream can do for you is relieve stress. how, exactly, you relieve your stress is up to you.

I responded 'sometimes.'

In dreams, I have no inhibitions against breaking many of the laws imposed on us by society, but I do obey some deeper, underlying morals. My guiding moral in dreams is to do nothing which causes great distress to a dream character. This is basically violence of any kind, including killing, raping, etc. If something I'm saying irritates/distresses them (as being told that they are in a dream can do), I won't hold back, because its nothing so serious. I'll often steal cars, damage things, and do other destructive things, but these don't distress the dream characters. I suppose the reason for this is that seeing people in great pain disturbs me, so I avoid causing that kind of situation in my dream.

Now, I'll admit I play a few violent video games, mostly shooters and fighting games. One game I don't play is GTA - the idea of attacking innocent people isn't attractive to me. The difference between that and what I play, is that in most FPS and fighting games, the people you're attacking are hostiles - it's not just an unprovoked attack. In dreams, I will respond if a DC takes violent action against me, but otherwise, I won't hurt anyone. If a dream character agrees to spar with me, I'd go ahead - its a mutual agreement.

Now that I've adressed violence, I'll move on to the other major moral issue in dreams: sex. The way I see it, dream sex could or could not be considered cheating, depending mainly on who it's with. If you intentionally seek out someone other than your significant other to have sex with, I think that's cheating. There's the common saying, "It's the thought that counts." I think that's the case here - if you would rather have sex with someone else, I think there are problems in the relationship that need to be adressed. However, a random DC because you cannot find your mate - I see nothing wrong with that. And if you aren't attached to anyone, well, have fun!

I think trying to make the idea of immorality in dreams taboo can cause supression in the creative flow of the dream. I'm not either for or against it, is what I mean. It's a matter of desire. This is a philosophical question, but do we have the desire to bend ethics? What goes along comes along. I personally do not try to break ethics in dreams mainly because it doesn't come to mind, not because I'm trying to put a lid on my evil nature. (although sometimes my non lucid dreams can make me do some really far out things)

Ethics and morality hold little significance to me in the waking world, so you get one guess at which option I selected.

One that would even think of breaking one's principles and morals in a dream is already not firm enough with his/her ideals and principles in life, which is why I wouldn't break all that I hold so important in a dream just like I don't do so in waking life.

Originally posted by kage23

So do you think dream actions affect karma?

To an extent. As far as I can understand about Karma, it's action and effect. If you punch some guy in a bar, chances are the effect is that he will punch you back, or you'll get thrown out. Intention is "I'm going to go over there and wipe the smile of that guys face". The action is punching him, and the effect is the fight that ensues. With dreaming about punching a dream character, the action and effects are only in your mind, but the 'atmosphere' of the situation could follow you back into waking life and potentially make you more accustomed to "wiping off smiles" in real life. It kinda falls into "you create the world you live in".

One other thought is that the when you die, the Buddhists believe that this is much like falling asleep, and that the 'Bardo' or intermediate state between death and your next life, is a lot like an uncontrolled dream (unless you're skilled in control ). At this point, the actions you have done throughout your life (mental or real) have influenced your experiences, and create the conditions for the environment you experience after death and point you to where your next rebirth will be, if you believe in that sort of thing.

Originally posted by Merlock
One that would even think of breaking one's principles and morals in a dream is already not firm enough with his/her ideals and principles in life, which is why I wouldn't break all that I hold so important in a dream just like I don't do so in waking life.

I disagree. Like many people here I think that what happens in dreams don't matter, so it is OK to do immoral things in them. However you should only do this IF your principles and morals are firm enough, so that you will not carry the behaviour into everyday life. Nothing you do in a dream hurts anyone else, so if you have firm enough principles and morals to seperate dream and real life behaviour, then why shouldn't you let loose and have some fun?

I do however think that you shouldn't go around doing bad things too much (especially really bad things like killing and raping), because it will twist your mind. A dream isn't really like GTA. It feels more real than any game.

Should you follow the rules of ethics and morality in a computer game? Two questions that make exactly the same sense.

We should strive to be moral in life, but being moral in our DREAMS is just taking it to the extreme. To illustrate - the act of feeling your arm lifted, feeling your fingers holding a plastic handle, then lowering your arm and seeing a lot of red liquid come out of a man, is not immoral. If people would've been invulnerable to stabbing, it wouldn't have been immoral. The one immoral component in the act of murder is the taking of someone's life, nothing else.

DOING AN ACT THAT YOU KNOW IS NOT CAUSING HARM TO ANYONE, BUT THAT YOU KNOW WOULD'VE CAUSED HARM UNDER DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES, IS NOT IMMORAL!


I hope that at least the capital letters get through to some of you.

Principles, morals and ideals are part of one's self.
If one breaks them, no matter where or under what circumstances, the effect is the same because it is not the effect on the world that counts, it's the effect on the inner self...
I do not break my ideals and principles anywhere because they mean everything to me, they are what make me...me, not because I simply "can" without any "harmful" consequences.
It would never even occur to one that actually gives meaning to his/her ideals and principles to break them, at least that is my position, otherwise...how can one call it an actual principle or moral?

Put shortly: Ideals and principles are the quintessense of one's being.

Here's my take on this. A dream is in your imagination. I'm sure some of us have imagined doing something wrong before. Doing that in a dream is no different. It's just much much more vivid.

i'm glad this topic has received so much interest! i think, whether you ultimately decide that one should or should not be moral in dreams, it is a topic that everybody (especially everybody who does LDing!) should consider and come to a decision for your own self.

that said, i'm glad to continue the discussion. i think the video game analogy seems to work rather well. although a dream is much more realistic than a video game, it's similar in that it does not have a bearing in the real world. if i kill people in my dreams or in GTA, nobody actually dies. however, i do agree that committing immoral acts, whether real, dream, or videogame, can be degrading to one's character. note that i said can, not will. the key here is moderation. i must admit, i'm a big fan of the GTA series. but, i enjoy it much more for the missions and plot-related goals than for the potential for killing sprees. sure, sometimes when i'm pissed off at the world, i need to go on a killing spree through san andreas, but these are rare occasions, and before too long, killing sprees can get boring and i just want to get back to the story and missions. likewise with dreams. if you need to kill someone in your dream who's been really bothering you recently, do it. but don't make it a habit. dreamtime should not be your nightly killing spree.

I do however think that you shouldn't go around doing bad things too much (especially really bad things like killing and raping), because it will twist your mind. A dream isn't really like GTA. It feels more real than any game.[/b]

which is why moderation is key.

as to sex and whether dream-sex is cheating, my wife and i have a simple rule for things like porn, masturbation, etc. if it causes me to lose interest in her, then that's too much. if i don't lose interest in her, that's fine. of course, this does NOT apply to extra-marital sex, as she does not want to share me. but i would tend to put dream-sex in the same category as porn or masturbation. as long as i'm interested in her when i'm awake, it doesn't matter who i'm interested in when i'm asleep. if it got to the point where i was not interested in having sex with her, because i was just looking forward to going to sleep and having sex with my dream-mistress, that would be a problem. but until it gets to that point, there is no problem.

phowaboy, interesting thoughts on karma. i would definitely agree that it's the action and effect that affect karma. so i would think that dreams would only affect karma to the extent that they affect waking actions. if dream-violence makes me more prone to commit waking-violence, than the dream has affected my karma.

Personally, I have never had a lucid dream, so I my answer may change once I finally have one.

I really don't I could do that in a dream just because it feels so wrong. I would feel so guilty even when I would be awake. To me, there is a difference in GTA in dreaming. A dream actually seems real. If I killed someone in GTA, I would know it wasn't real. But in a dream (lucid or no) that just seems too violent for me to kill someone. But, that's not me saying ethics and all apply in dreams, that's just me stating the fact that I wouldn't be able to do things like that.

Originally posted by Merlock
Principles, morals and ideals are part of one's self.
If one breaks them, no matter where or under what circumstances, the effect is the same because it is not the effect on the world that counts, it's the effect on the inner self...

That's the POINT, the act of killing is immoral, not imagining about killing or seeing someone get killed. As long as the dreamer is aware that his actions have no impact on the real world, there's nothing immoral in his actions. If he truely believes that the people he's killing are real (meaning he's not lucid) than the action is still moral, but the person himself is immoral.

I do not break my ideals and principles anywhere because they mean everything to me, they are what make me...me, not because I simply \"can\" without any \"harmful\" consequences.[/b]

Your ideals and principles are that taking a life is wrong. Nobody's life is taken in a dream.

Originally posted by Wicked
Your ideals and principles are that taking a life is wrong. Nobody's life is taken in a dream.

Here now, it is not your place or time to tell me what my own principles are.

However, if you wish to argue against my reasoning then I hope you would at least understand my point. An act is an act, whether it be fictive or not. Thinking about something that goes against one's ideals is not the same as being able to bring yourself to do so no matter whether you assess the situation before making the action or not.
I, for one, can not even vividly imagine myself disrespecting someone of the opposite gender in any way. That, as I see it, is a true principle/ideal/moral set deep in my mind, not just something that one calls a personal principle and yet has the will power to overcome; a part of my ego.

Even besides all said above, a dream is reality just like the waking life, simply because it actually happens. For all anyone knows dreams can be a completely different life (being objective as much as possible I allow the possibility of everything and deny nothing) and even if not, actions will be actions, no matter where or how because it is the why that matters here (speaking of ideals, principles and morals).

Originally posted by Wicked

That's the POINT, the act of killing is immoral, not imagining about killing or seeing someone get killed. As long as the dreamer is aware that his actions have no impact on the real world, there's nothing immoral in his actions.

That's an interesting point. If you'll humor me for a moment, an interesting question to impose on this idea is \"What makes the real world\". One could consider the dream world to be the real world, except with different laws and boundaries.

The Buddhists believe that the waking world is a 'dream like' perception based on your mind taking the data received from the senses (taste, sight, touch, sound, etc...) and mixing it together with mental factors such as emotions and memory, and \"imputing\" the waking world on your consciousness. It's believed that a dream is also an \"imputed\" world, accept it exists from mixing only mental elements together. Even in the world of Relativistic Physics, the world exists with respect to ones perception of it.

My point being, it's hard to say definitively what is and isn't \"real\".

Originally posted by Wicked

If he truly believes that the people he's killing are real (meaning he's not lucid) than the action is still moral, but the person himself is immoral.

I would say that actions which are spawned from anger or hatred could be labeled immoral, as the purpose of the action is to cause harm. If one were killing to truly prevent harm to the victim and to others, then the action is based in compassion. However, the wisdom required to know when to do this is most likely beyond anyone who isn't omniscient.