Thread: Dream ethics

I belive that it does not matter if it is a dream or not, what defines us is not exactly what we do but what we think, what we want. But it's up to you if you like to hurt and few pleasure with that, doing it in a dream or real life or if you like to help people. The only good side of doing bad stuff it in dreams is that the only victim is yourself.

Cya!

The dream world is so vaste, that if you were to say - "Yes - I will always be moral" or "No - I will blatantly break every rule I can" would be difficult to say the least, but I also think having such a definitive view point would take away from the gift of dreaming. If something happens in your dreamscape that makes you uncomfortable - what a gift! You now know that makes you uncomfortable, and taht experience could possibly raise questions within yourself in regards to why that? Or what now? It is hard to give examples, but what I am saying is this: dreams are valuable clues to who we are - for better or for worse - and imposing rules on them is to negate their point. They are ruleless. They are free. Because they are dreams. That is thier job. To go beyond reality and the mundane.
But through lucid dreaming, we can change their events - so sometimes you may feel the urge to "moral-ify" your dream - and whose their to stop you? Go ahead.
I suppose you should take it dream by dream.

Hello Fellow Dreamers:

I had wondered if any/many of you had any ideas about dream ethics. I was quite sorry to see that 56% feel you can do whatever you want to those you encounter in dreamland.

Why is it that so many here feel they have license to rape (as one person clearly stated) or otherwise cause harm without penalty?

Perhaps one ought to consider what harm it may cause oneself to act out in such a manner?

And, given my interactions with friends, family and others while lucid dreaming, I strongly suspect that doing harm to others is quite likely to result in harm to both the other as well as oneself.

Is there anyone else in this forum who has any ideas about dream ethics?

Lucid dreaming is a place where one can perceive and affect one's reality.

What kind of reality to you want to be creating? And what does the reality you create say about you?

Sparklinrose

Originally posted by sparklinrose
Hello Fellow Dreamers:

I had wondered if any/many of you had any ideas about dream ethics. *I was quite sorry to see that 56% feel you can do whatever you want to those you encounter in dreamland. *

Why is it that so many here feel they have license to rape (as one person clearly stated) or otherwise cause harm without penalty?

Perhaps one ought to consider what harm it may cause oneself to act out in such a manner?

And, given my interactions with friends, family and others while lucid dreaming, I strongly suspect that doing harm to others is quite likely to result in harm to both the other as well as oneself.

Is there anyone else in this forum who has any ideas about dream ethics? *

Lucid dreaming is a place where one can perceive and affect one's reality.

What kind of reality to you want to be creating? *And what does the reality you create say about you?

Sparklinrose

Yes, I agree with you.

What we have here is a divide between the Materialists and the Spiritualists. the Materialists are convinced that dreams are entirely insubstantial imaginations confined to their own head, and thus have no consequence at all. They don't believe in God and so they have no basis for having the slightest moral sense. And they are all very young and so they have no experience of having been violated and inflicted by evil. So to them Evil is just a big joke. And Stupidity is a lot like Drunkeness -- it doesn't require a great many reasons for what it does.

But the Spiritualists believe that the Subjective Reality of their Dreams is interconnected to the Meaning and Purposes of Life, and that there is a God, and that Civilization -- God's expression of Heaven on Earth -- must ultimately rest upon a Moral Sense, Collectivism, and Community. This can hardly be achieved if one gives one's self licence to be a Barbarian in one's sleep.

Originally posted by kage23
Hi, I'm new to the forum and while I've heard about LD in the past, it's only recently that I've been serious about it. So far, no luck. I have always had bad dream recall, and I have only been keeping a dream journal for a few days (only one entry so far, a very brief image remembered from the night before).

Anyway, that's not what this post is about. I'm curious to see what people think about ethics and morality in dreams. It seems to me that, since a dream is only in your head and not real, that ethics and morality don't really matter. Does everybody agree with this? Basically, I wonder what people think about doing things in dreams that you would not do in real life. For example, robbing a bank, sleeping with girlfriend's best friend, committing senseless murders, etc. Obviously, in real life, these things would all be wrong. If it's in a dream, does that make it okay? Are there any things that are right or wrong to do in dreams? Or is the dreamworld totally amoral?

I'm a student of philosophy, so I am interested in these kinds of things. I'm just curious to see how everybody else feels on this matter.

In my dreams I sorta live as a bad ass good guy, kinda like a cowboy in a way, doesn't follow societeys rules, but not going out and doing sensless crimes. (hell that's how I live my waking life. ) I guess you could say I do some victomless crimes. in a lucid dream, after I had just become lucid, I saw a woman being mugged, I went over, turned the guy around, kicked him in the chest, and he went flying back ward about 30 feet.

I've posted in other "Morality in Dreams" posts, and as a matter of fact that's the exact name of a post with the same intention as this one. Here's what I say:

Non-Lucid Dream: Ethics are not so much a factor here, but your actions in these dreams are good reflection of your waking morals and desires, whether they conflict or coincide.

]Lucid Dreams: These dreams are a test of how dedicated a person is to a set of morals, and to which morals one is dedicated to. Sure, it may be all in your head, and sure, you may not be harmind a real person, and sure, nobody else has to know, but your actions in a lucid dream really do show who you truly are. They show motive and the level of honesty you have with yourself as well as those around you.

I will agree that there are grey areas where one must make a conscious choice as to whether these things are right or wrong. Example: beating up or killing a bad guy in a dream. I can't say for certain.

"The true test of character is what you do when nobody's watching."

yea, I totally agree with you on that one, I've sorta takin on the role of defender of the DCs.

Originally posted by Leo Volont

What we have here is a divide between the Materialists and the Spiritualists. the Materialists are convinced that dreams are entirely insubstantial imaginations confined to their own head, and thus have no consequence at all. They don't believe in God and so they have no basis for having the slightest moral sense. And they are all very young and so they have no experience of having been violated and inflicted by evil. So to them Evil is just a big joke. And Stupidity is a lot like Drunkeness -- it doesn't require a great many reasons for what it does.

But the Spiritualists believe that the Subjective Reality of their Dreams is interconnected to the Meaning and Purposes of Life, and that there is a God, and that Civilization -- God's expression of Heaven on Earth -- must ultimately rest upon a Moral Sense, Collectivism, and Community. This can hardly be achieved if one gives one's self licence to be a Barbarian in one's sleep.

Leo, I must first thank you for writing many Bibles-worth of deep meaningful posts on this forum - but that was just offensive. I voted 'no' in the poll, but I do believe in God and I generally stay away from evil and fear it.

Whats wrong in believing that one 'reality' has a God and another doesn't? What's wrong about saying that God has authority in this reality but not over your mind? I could, say, believe that man exists in this 'reality' under his government, but that our mind are our's only and that He has no rule there? Of course, I also believe it is good to use you mind to comprehend God, but I don't think I need to worry about him in my dreams - let alone the rules of human governments. You may say this violates omniscience/omnipotence, but what's to say that He is even that? You cannot prove that, you cannot so assertively judge us here.

The big question of dream ethics and morality....

First of all I'd like to clarify what sort of ethics and morality we are talking about?
What comes to my mind:

Things related to sex
Killing / inflicting pain
Mind control ?
Destruction of property?
Helping not helping DCs?

Personally i dont see that many ethical problems that present themselves in LDs...


If you really want to follow some set of ethics/morals/restrictions in your lucid dreams, make them up yourself ! Dont blindly follow the real world ethics/morals, cause if you do there will always be someone who will be able to critisize you for that and make you feel bad.
I believe that lucid dreaming ethics should be made *on the spot*. If something you do causes some negative consequences, change it, but do it on your own, dont borrow other people's morals and apply them to your dreams, as bad things may happen...

The problem with ethics in dreams is that how exaclty does one define a wrongdoing/crime/sin in a dream?

Take rape for example. If you were to drag a DC off a street and forcefully have sex with her, it would be fair to say that was equivalent to rape, and similarly if you made love to your real-life partner in a dream no-one would accuse you of wrongdoing. But what about summoning a DC and having sex with them? Is that rape? Is having sex with someone you like but does not feel the same way rape, if it was in a dream? And what exactly does "consent" from a dream character count for?

Also, you get a phethora of new things that are of dubious morality. If a vegetarian eats meat in a dream, does that mean he is violating his belief, even though the meat has obviously come from nowhere? Does having sex with an elf or a nymph constitute bestiality? Does parking a jumbo jet in a multi-storey car park constitute a parking offence?

All of this is true. Dc's aren't real so why not? The reason for the "why not?" is that in a dream you can learn how to do many things. If in your dreams you practice raping someone in different environments, it has just become easier in real life to do the same. And there is also the old idea that dreams are your hopes. Only a little further to immorality. I'm not saying I haven't been there, but I feel guilty for it. I definantly didn't feel guilty at the time. The year in court-appointed conselling definantly changed my perspective.

I sometimes wonder if morality is relevant. I'm not a believer in any "GOD"
but what if there is some greater power judging us? Do dreams count?

Let's pretend Aliens own us, and the Earth is their test tube (so to speak)
If they judge our dreams, are they judging our actions? if so, do "good" and "bad" even apply?

Perhaps that's just like Television to them. More interesting than real life monitoring.

I'm not all serious about this or anything, it's just fun to think about time to time.

I generally do what I want in dreams and when I'm lucid, anything goes. I'll do some evil stuff. Especially during my teenage years.
It can be time to try things you'd never ever do in real life, that might even disgust you when you wake up. Experience is everything.
None of it counts, I know it's not real. Or at least I hope it's not. For quite a while now, I've been a good person in my dreams (mostly).

When I'm not lucid, I've done things that I still feel bad about to this day, on some level.
But it's like, it wasn't me. I was in auto pilot and the mind goes to dark places sometimes.
Not my fault.

It's good to know what it feels like to do bad things. To know you couldn't live with the after math of such things, could prevent a person from doing something they'd find immoral.
If they taught psycho murdering rapists & shit how to lucid dream, they might be able to get it out of their system that way instead of hurting real people.
That's an extreme case though, what about cleptomaniacs? or people using bad dirty drugs? Get it out of your system while you're dreaming.
I know a crackhead who dreams of smoking crack and wakes up wanting more. So yeah, it can be counter productive. Even fuel the urge.
Anyway I don't think I meant to take this in that direction but it was relevant.

Hey, as long as you don't do anything in real life, dreaming about anything is fine. It's completely within morality. You are not harming anyone, so why shouldn't it be moral.
Oh, and if you believe that immorality in dreams can lead to immorality in real life as well, the let me tell you, I regularly go about killing monster and doing pretty evil stuff in dreams, but in real life, none of this ever effects me. I am just a peaceful guy.
Don't worry about it, and enjoy your dreams to the fullest. You'll be fine. After all, dreams are the only place we get to do stuff we can not in real life, right?

I don't believe in following any sort of moral code in dreams. I believe that it's all in your head, and you have the chance to do anything you want, whether that means bouncing on fluffy clouds or going on a murdering rampage burning down buildings. Nobody is there to judge you and say you can't, so you might as well enjoy it to the fullest.

Originally Posted by Leo Volont

Yes, I agree with you.

What we have here is a divide between the Materialists and the Spiritualists. the Materialists are convinced that dreams are entirely insubstantial imaginations confined to their own head, and thus have no consequence at all. They don't believe in God and so they have no basis for having the slightest moral sense. And they are all very young and so they have no experience of having been violated and inflicted by evil. So to them Evil is just a big joke. And Stupidity is a lot like Drunkeness -- it doesn't require a great many reasons for what it does.

But the Spiritualists believe that the Subjective Reality of their Dreams is interconnected to the Meaning and Purposes of Life, and that there is a God, and that Civilization -- God's expression of Heaven on Earth -- must ultimately rest upon a Moral Sense, Collectivism, and Community. This can hardly be achieved if one gives one's self licence to be a Barbarian in one's sleep.

Hello there, I'd like to have a fair conversation with you, thanks. My first step to fairness of a conversation is to remove any presumptions about me/ the forum. You do not know if I am young, you do not know if I believe in God. You do not know if I think Evil is a joke. So let me rephrase your message

"What we have here is a divide between the Materialists and the Spiritualists. the Materialists are convinced that dreams are entirely insubstantial imaginations confined to their own head, and thus have no consequence at all. And Stupidity is a lot like Drunkeness -- it doesn't require a great many reasons for what it does.

But the Spiritualists believe that the Subjective Reality of their Dreams is interconnected to the Meaning and Purposes of Life, and that there is a God, and that Civilization -- God's expression of Heaven on Earth -- must ultimately rest upon a Moral Sense, Collectivism, and Community. This can hardly be achieved if one gives one's self licence to be a Barbarian in one's sleep."

Now, onto my response.

" the Materialists are convinced that dreams are entirely insubstantial imaginations confined to their own head"
If they are not in my own head, where are they?

"and thus have no consequence at all."
I'll discuss this later

"And Stupidity is a lot like Drunkeness -- it doesn't require a great many reasons for what it does. "
What? I thought I was a Materialist as you called me, not stupid. If you do think this because of my beliefs then I'm sorry.

"But the Spiritualists believe that the Subjective Reality of their Dreams is interconnected to the Meaning and Purposes of Life, and that there is a God, and that Civilization -- God's expression of Heaven on Earth -- must ultimately rest upon a Moral Sense, Collectivism, and Community. This can hardly be achieved if one gives one's self licence to be a Barbarian in one's sleep."

I take it by "Barbarian" You mean generally thought of disgusting things, such as rape and homicide. Now let us look at those definitions shall we?

rape, in law, the crime of sexual intercourse without the consent of the victim, often through force or threat of violence.

homicide , in law, the taking of human life.

Notice the words "consent of the victim" and "human life" Now unless you bring me proof that these people in your dreams are alive then I believe you have made no objection to the law and are a legal, moral citizen.

So do ethics matter in dreams?

No.

EDIT:

Oh... God, this is 4 years old, I'm sorry for posting. I didn't notice, the person above bumped it.

Damn, four years - do they lock on these forums?

I was actually getting interested.

Anyway, what is the possibility that your dreams are actually somehow shared with someone else, like perhaps LD is somehow a "shared dreamscape" with another person? Who know, you might be causing someone else a nightmare...

Otherwise, no. Your mind is your own.

Outside of exercising abilities which I do not have when my body is awake, I behave the same in lucid dreaming as I do when my body is not sleeping. As well, when I have nonlucid dreams and my dream character does not act in a way that I would normally act when I am conscious of myself (i.e. when my body is awake or in a lucid dream), then I concentrate for a while upon waking up so that the next time my nonlucid dream character is in a similar situation, it will act the way I normally act. This has been so effective that by now I rarely if ever observe my nonlucid dream character during nonlucid dreaming act in a way that I would not act during either a lucid dream or when my body is awake.

I do not consider this a matter of ethics or morals in as much as those might be determined by any particular outside set of rules or structures which have been imposed upon me. I consider this simply a matter of integrity, of being true to myself in all my states of consciousness: that I am myself when my body is awake; I am myself when my mind is asleep; I am myself when I am awake within my dreaming.

I've never killed someone in an LD and don't plan to. Even when lucid and fully aware, I treat DCs like they're regular people. Well, there was a criminal in my LD last night and I got back at him, but only because he was a bad guy. I respect people too much in real life I think.

Originally Posted by Munky

Anyway, what is the possibility that your dreams are actually somehow shared with someone else, like perhaps LD is somehow a "shared dreamscape" with another person? Who know, you might be causing someone else a nightmare...

Otherwise, no. Your mind is your own.

Yeah sharing dreams is an interesting concept. I've found a few characters I thought were real people.
We shared information and tricks. I hope if I've ever attacked a real person in a dream, I hope they got something out of it.
Chances are I could tell they were dreamcharacters or asking for it.

I think it's ok to do what you want in dreams, provided it dosen't transfer to RL. And don't do it in a shared dream either- at least to the person you're sharing it with. Apart from that, do what you want.

But, most people wouldn't go on a killing spree to normal DCs.

I say sometimes simply because we are human certain things, even if they are just in your dreams, will bother you. Now I'm most definately god in my world and soetimes act without mercy but at the same time I would treat certain DC's completely different based on if they'd done nothing or if they were scared or someone I loved. not because it's wrong but because, like I said we are human and I would feel horrible for doing bad things to kids, certain animals like dogs, loved ones, scared people. Beacuse that is who I am.

If your mom called you an asshole in your dream would you pull out a kitana and slice her to pieces???

If a stranger flipped you the birdy would you punch a hole through his chest???

Get where I'm coming from now!!!

If your mom called you an asshole in your dream would you pull out a kitana and slice her to pieces???

No- but she'd disappear.

See! you remain humane!

Old thread is old.

Anyway, I think that killing, even in dreams, is immoral. I myself am Catholic-Chrisitan so I believe in God and believe that it is not so much the act of doing the sin, but the thought of doing the sin that is what makes it a sin. "Thou shalt not kill" -one of the ten commandments. Now, it does not say "thou shalt not take a human life" so, even though DCs technically are not real, you are still counsciously acting out the sin. Now if it was in a non-lucid then no, it is not a sin, because you have no thoughts or consciousness of yourself doing the sin.

Unless it's a zombie apocalypse or an army from hell, go nuts