Thread: would it be a sin?

According to what I've been reading of theosophy, wanting to do something evil is just as bad actually doing it. When you want do to something and you don't, the only thing holding you back is fear of consequences. If there were no consequences, you would likely go ahead and do it if that's what you really wanted.

It there were suddenly no law, there would be a lot more murderers in the world, among other things. But it wouldn't be the removal of the law that turned them evil.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

According to what I've been reading of theosophy, wanting to do something evil is just as bad actually doing it. When you want do to something and you don't, the only thing holding you back is fear of consequences. If there were no consequences, you would likely go ahead and do it if that's what you really wanted.

It there were suddenly no law, there would be a lot more murderers in the world, among other things. But it wouldn't be the removal of the law that turned them evil.

Some of this is true, but have you ever heard of the reason people have locks on their doors. "It's not to keep bad people out, but it is to keep the good people out," basically, laws are like locks, they can't truly stop people, but they remove temptation from the good people.
I'm sure that although there would be more crime and murder, many of the extra people doing so would really not be evil but tempted. Not to say that they would not be sinning, since temptation is a sin, but they would not be evil people.
Also, if there were no laws in the first place, then that means that people wouldn't be doing something wrong; their perspectives would be different from ours. To us, killing is evil, meanwhile to lawless community, it is just natural impulse.
There is no law in the dream world and no locks to hold you back, so if you just acted impulsively eventually you will get the impulse to kill someone (It happens all the time very naturally) and you would. It works the same with rape and other crimes. This is just what I believe, and if you don't agree, fine.

Originally Posted by towarmforacoat

...since temptation is a sin...

I agree with you and Cusp, for the most part. I don't really agree with the temptation = sin theory though. Your moral stature is determined by your actions, not your surroundings.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Oneironaught is right. Also, during dreaming, we think in other ways. We're not ourselfs.

unless you're lucid

Originally Posted by towarmforacoat

how do you think writers are able to describe the rape or killing they write about? they research and imagine the experience.

exactly!

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

unless you're lucid

If you believe that all lucid experience is completely controlled by the moral compass or even by the will then you haven't had much lucid experience.

But, as I mentioned earlier, I don't "recommend" doing things you're morally opposed to in LDs. However, I still don't think you're an evil killer if you beat the life out of a dream character. It's a dream, a story, a screenplay. I think most people understand the difference between harming some one or doing some one wrong and having a dream or watching a movie. The two ends of the spectrum are not the same entity.

I think its fine, as long as you know where to draw the line. It's not a sin to have fun. In real life, you would be having fun at the other person's expense, but in a dream, you aren't interacting or effecting anyone else in any way at all.

IMHO, it is completely fine and somewhat normal to want to do sinful things in a dream because you know you can't do them in real life. If you take care of your wants and urges to sin in a dream, it can only really help. I do think, however, that the line is drawn once you start having serious considerations and urges to commit such sins in real life. That is when you know you've got to get back into control of your thoughts.

: DD

Well, coudn't you just have lucid sex and not lucid rape?

But seriously, its hard to answer this even if you are religious because its not techniqually really happening, so how can you be judged for something you haven't done? Rhetorical question.

However Catholicism states that even impure thoughts can be a sin, so even lucid sex can be classed as a sin too.

Originally Posted by NeAvO

Well, coudn't you just have lucid sex and not lucid rape?

Rape is more an act of violence than sex: people get off on the power.

I would not think this is a sin, because in a lucid dream you can control your charcter that you would for example would want to rape. Even if you cant if you are lucid and your a good person who would not want to rape anyone you would try to think that the person you are raping is ok with that. Thus this is not a sin cause you dont really wana cause harm to anyone you just want to use your chance to have fun, you know that youre not hurting anyone and you wont do it in real life.

I think most religious people would still think its a sin. Religious people are quite simple minded, they rely too much on their belifs and would think that if its in your head it may develop to reality too. I dont think they would belive that a person who imagine himself rape someone in a lucid dream would not commit a serious sin in reality.

OH MAN IM DIGGIN THIS THREAD
I have asked myself this Q before because i am a Christian. well i would say that what happens in dreams are just fantasy, just like when you're really angra and are imagining yourself beating the shit out of your teacher during math class or just jerking off to your or A girl/boy. However even La Berge says that "dreams are real but only as long as they last". also in Van DeKeere"s book it says that if you think about it if you imagine a flying blue elephant its real because its a thought and thoughts are real, maybe not phisycally real but they are in existance and are manifesting in one way or another. So i guess that what happens in a dream stays in a dream. Everything that goes on in a dream just like oneironaught said IS UP TO THE DREAMER'S MATURITY AND MORALS.

Originally Posted by Nefarious

I would not think this is a sin, because in a lucid dream you can control your charcter that you would for example would want to rape. Even if you cant if you are lucid and your a good person who would not want to rape anyone you would try to think that the person you are raping is ok with that. Thus this is not a sin cause you dont really wana cause harm to anyone you just want to use your chance to have fun, you know that youre not hurting anyone and you wont do it in real life.

I think most religious people would still think its a sin. Religious people are quite simple minded, they rely too much on their belifs and would think that if its in your head it may develop to reality too. I dont think they would belive that a person who imagine himself rape someone in a lucid dream would not commit a serious sin in reality.

Wait bro, i think you are judging religious people way too quickly. i mean im not religious but you see religious people think the way they do not because they are afraid of it's outcome but because it is a commandment of their God. Its just people following the rules they have chosen to follow.

Originally Posted by Tranquil Toad

Rape is more an act of violence than sex: people get off on the power.

yeah but sex and rape were just examples, that's not what I was really doing or planning to do, i was just curious about the topic

Originally Posted by SEBSTER

Wait bro, i think you are judging religious people way too quickly. i mean im not religious but you see religious people think the way they do not because they are afraid of it's outcome but because it is a commandment of their God. Its just people following the rules they have chosen to follow.

Religion was made to allow people belive in something they would think is right and base some kind of a system around it. I am not an Atheis I have no idea how you would call a person like me, I belive in god wich is a system that make things happen and sometimes I might even ask that system for help cause I think it would help me. But I dont like religion at all people have worked something to limit the people in certain things to mentain this belif in god, its just like I would ask for help from that "system" but they made it abit more complicated I dont like that and I dont have any religion.

I could clearly see in a few years that some religions would be totally against lucid dreaming, because like I said religion keeps developing or at least it should cause it did before. The development of humanity makes people atheists the start to belive in science and not in god, religion supose to avoid that and develop together with science.

People explain things they dont understand with either theory or religion, I would rather mix it to a point where I dont need the limits of religion and I donat take theory too seriously untill its a proven fact. However this is going off topic

The real question is: Is it a sin to rape yourself? This is mental masturbation, nothing more.

Of course, some will have you believe that masturbation is a sin so, there's no pleasing some people.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

there's no pleasing some people.

Literally! :p

Sorry this post isn't more insightful.

Originally Posted by a_pirates_life_for_me

unless you're lucid

I don't think you understand the nature of our brains, when we are dreaming. Even if we are lucid, we're still running 3-5Hz brainwaves, and that makes us even more stupid, than we are in the morning, when all groggy and that. This can be trained, but in the start, you will experience that you often blame yourself for being stupid and stuff, because you didn't do what you had planned.

We are stupid when we dream. Even when we're lucid.

Forgive em if Im wrong (Im not a christian), but dont they say a sin happens twice? Once thinking, and once doing.

Originally Posted by NatureBoy93

Forgive em if Im wrong (Im not a christian), but dont they say a sin happens twice? Once thinking, and once doing.

holy shit he's right! but in a dream wouldnt it be just thinking?

Originally Posted by Marvo

I don't think you understand the nature of our brains, when we are dreaming. Even if we are lucid, we're still running 3-5Hz brainwaves, and that makes us even more stupid, than we are in the morning, when all groggy and that. This can be trained, but in the start, you will experience that you often blame yourself for being stupid and stuff, because you didn't do what you had planned.

We are stupid when we dream. Even when we're lucid.

DAMN either u know or read to much! haha but its a good thing either way

first of all-- i am religious.

you have to know that the church and material things "from gods property"
are just and instrument used in ancient times to control the people with fear....
sins are established by church, some of them are ridiculous and some are basic and important

ridiculous(examples):
-masturbating (dude!!! self satisfaction, whats wrong with that?)
-no eating meat on saturdays and that stuff.

basic and important(examples):
-dont kill
-dont harm anybody without reason (reason=self defense)


...
I mean , dont let church take out your peacefull satisfation.
this is my point of view
..
I believe in god but not in the instruments taken by humans to control people saying that it is on gods will.

And i say believe what you want and be comfortablw with it!

Oneironaught, you bring up a good point about separating fantasy from reality, but with this subject, you also have to decide how you define dreams. I think that while dreams aren't the same as real life (obviously), they can reveal to us things in our lives which we may not be consciously or continuously aware of. They can sometimes cause us to take a closer look at ourselves when we wake up, so I don't classify dreams as entirely "fantasy."

Originally Posted by towarmforacoat

Everyone, no matter who they are, has imagined killing someone or committing some horrible crime. Therefore, when one dreams such, it is the equivalent of one imagining it just more realistic.

As I did in my last post, I bring up the element of choice. Sure, everyone has had random fleeting thoughts that may violate what they believe is right, but once one realizes that he/she is thinking those thoughts, it's up to them to continue along that train of thought or to push those thoughts aside. Sure, they may just be in your head, but regardless, they do affect how you interact with those around you. If you randomly dream about sleeping with a man/woman who you know and you remember it, the next time you see them it's highly likely that that dream will pop up in your memory. You don't have to tell them about it, but it does affect how you act.

Even though a dream is just in your head, when you're lucid and choose to dream about something that you know is wrong, it's just like continuing along that train of thought that you know you shouldn't take. There's nothing wrong with a random battle, in my opinion, but if you're shooting someone you know who you don't like, then there's a clear line that's been crossed.

Im not religous, but if you are think of it this way,perhaps the real world is God's world, where you have to follow his rules, but your mind is your own world. No one can ever take your imagination from you, and it can never hurt any one, so why would God care?

Also, I think most relgion were made up to control people (scientology is a great example). Christianity was made for good reason, but over time it was used for evil. I don't think the church could have gotten further from Jesus' teachings. Also, the Bible never mentions hell once. Hell is a mistranslation of the word sheol or something, and is supposed to mean "grave", so you don't have to worry about that if you are christian.

Originally Posted by Amethyst Star

They can sometimes cause us to take a closer look at ourselves when we wake up, so I don't classify dreams as entirely "fantasy."

Oh, I agree. But that's just it: dreams are more likely to reflect the real world in a fantasy setting than to impose fantasy onto the real-world experience.

So, dreaming about bad things isn't nearly as likely to make you do those bad things in real life. Conversely, real-life thoughts can and do seep into our dreams in various forms.

Originally Posted by Harrycombs

Also, the Bible never mentions hell once. Hell is a mistranslation of the word sheol or something, and is supposed to mean "grave", so you don't have to worry about that if you are christian.

Quoted for truth.