Thread: if LDing is real then what about. . .

You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!! You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof. We cannot convince you. By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!! You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof. We cannot convince you.

no proof, no trying

I can just tell you that there is a pink elephant above your head, and say I can't prove it: you have to see it for yourself

no go ahead and try to see the pink elephant.... post your report on the experiment xD

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.

why should I believe you? again your words lack proof

Shit, i'm tired of this philosophical bullshit. This can be easily tested. Sombody give me the link to the site you guys learned from. I will attempt to practice this and get as good as i possibly can with a completely open mind. I want to find that this works, i would love to find something change my mind, so allow me, by giving me the site link to test this psi stuff for myself. You all saw my previous posts, so you know what my stance on it was before. I will post again with my results, i will treat it as a scientific experiment and i guarantee, i will give both sides something conclusive that will put this discussion to rest once and for all.

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!! You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof. We cannot convince you. By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.

Telepathy is part of psi, someone read my goddam mind or remote view my house and tell me what kind of laptop I have, or TV brand, or something and describe with relative accuracy and I'll believe it.

If psychics are real and can't even do THAT, it's worthless in practice.

Anyway, yeah, read my mind instead of rolling around a goddam ball on a table.

Also, who gives a crap if you can LD better than us? As far as I'm concerned, that's another unsubstantiated claim, and we're not contesting how has the biggest balls or who can do it better than anyone else. Now you're just being immature.

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!! You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof. We cannot convince you. By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.

When people claim to move things with their mind yet refuse to let anyone else see it happen then you pretty much have to take it to be bullsh!t because that's almost certainly what it is.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

When people claim to move things with their mind yet refuse to let anyone else see it happen then you pretty much have to take it to be bullsh!t because that's almost certainly what it is.

foolish mortal, he doesn't care what you think or if you believe in his superpowers. he knows he can do it 'cause he PROVE IT TO HIMSELF.S

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.

Excuse me. I'm going to have to intervene here. THAT^^^ is just childish. You can not say something like that without sounding like a 4-year old. Now, if we take into account how completely cocky, ignorant, and immature that sounds, and that you believe in psi, we begin to paint a mental image of the kind of people that believe in this stuff:

Delusional, immature, arrogant pricks.

If you want us to take you seriously, you should not make a complete fool of yourself like that.

It's all about having an open mind

If you have doubts about it then learn it and practice it consistently. Things like these I'd probably practice for six months constantly until I get results.

A lot of people are too close minded and don't believe nothing unless "Society" states its true.

For instance many people I've told about Astral Projection swear that it's impossible. Even Lucid dreaming they swear is impossible to do. I remember looking into remote viewing and watching a video where the guys classroom of RVers basically predicted something that happened. Many people wouldn't believe nothing that has to do with the mind.

If they can't use there 5 senses and it's not in the actualy physical world then they won't believe it.

The believe there is nothing at the bottom of the sea, when they've never been there. They claim certain mental things aren't possible but they have no clue what dreams or, nor deja vu, nor intuition.

It's funny because since I was young, I never really blew a statement or belief off until I got enough sources and results to come up with my own feedback.

Up to this day I never knew how I could pin point that I'd get something or something would happen a few minutes later. (I think this is similar to what they talk about in "The secret")

Up to this day I can't understand how my mind could tell me to do something RIGHT now and save my life. I once almost go hit by a truck because I looked and then was about to cross but my mind and body told me to look agian and sure enough a truck passed a few inches from me. (This type of stuff happened countless times)

Up to this day I can't understand why when I actually want something or try to force to get something I never get it. But when I force it and realize I'm doing that, I'd instead deny the possiblity of me getting it or that happening and then I happen to get it?


spirituality, psychics and psychology are probably the 3 most unknown things to the average person. There is alot to learn in these areas. These are the 3 things I tend to focus on the most in my life. Why? because there is alot to discover in these areas.

The average person doesn't even know how much energy is in there body.
- To find out just do a good energy technique, raise the energy and realize all the parts of you're body that may not have a decent energy flow going through, due to you never doing this before. Better yet realize how it almost hurts and you start aching)

Hardly a contradiction, Lucid Dreaming is to be conciously aware while your body is still asleep.

Originally Posted by Astral__Explorer

It's all about having an open mind

If you have doubts about it then learn it and practice it consistently. Things like these I'd probably practice for six months constantly until I get results.

A lot of people are too close minded and don't believe nothing unless "Society" states its true.

For instance many people I've told about Astral Projection swear that it's impossible. Even Lucid dreaming they swear is impossible to do. I remember looking into remote viewing and watching a video where the guys classroom of RVers basically predicted something that happened. Many people wouldn't believe nothing that has to do with the mind.

If they can't use there 5 senses and it's not in the actualy physical world then they won't believe it.

The believe there is nothing at the bottom of the sea, when they've never been there. They claim certain mental things aren't possible but they have no clue what dreams or, nor deja vu, nor intuition.

It's funny because since I was young, I never really blew a statement or belief off until I got enough sources and results to come up with my own feedback.

Up to this day I never knew how I could pin point that I'd get something or something would happen a few minutes later. (I think this is similar to what they talk about in "The secret")

Up to this day I can't understand how my mind could tell me to do something RIGHT now and save my life. I once almost go hit by a truck because I looked and then was about to cross but my mind and body told me to look agian and sure enough a truck passed a few inches from me. (This type of stuff happened countless times.

You can also fly if you practice really, really hard. It just takes mind power, you know?

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!!

Actually there is, its just that out of the thousands and thousands of people who claim they can do TK, no one has been able to *actually do it* yet. Now, maybe you confused the idea of you not being able to prove it to us, and the idea of it not being able to be proven. The truth is that science can be applied to TK, and relatively simply at that. It doesn’t take much, just a person who claims they have telekinetic abilities and a closely monitored room with controlled conditions. That's it. You don't need state of the art equipment, millions of dollars, or the brightest minds on the face of the planet to be able to tell if someone can actually move something without the use of their muscles. All it takes is a willing participant and sufficient conditions.

There is no good excuse for the lack of scientific evidence, which is why it isn't all that unreasonable for people to look at TK and be somewhat suspicious.

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof.

You want to know what the problem is with this argument? It has no actual substance to it. Let me explain. You see, I have tried this, and it stopped working as soon as I put a glass over the psi wheel. Those *are* my results, and they don't seem to compliment your cause. But you see, the catch 22 with the "do it yourself" argument is that if someone actually does try it, but doesn’t get positive results, there is the convenient backdoor retreat of "well then you need to try harder".

I could say the exact same thing about anything that is otherwise impossible...like turning air into 100 dollar bills. All I need to do is say that I have done it myself, and if you want proof to do it yourself too. And when you fail (because it's impossible) all I need to say is "Well I know it can be done, because I have done it, so just because you can't do it doesnt mean it can't be done...".

But as you can see, like the air-to-cash example, there is no reason whatsoever that we would have to settle for "do-it-yourself proof" of telekinesis when such a phenomenon can be done in front of, and examined by, professionals. Right?

So what do you have to say about that? Explain to me why, when it comes to TK, people seem to think they are exempt from scientific analysis...

All I want to say is: In my honest opinion, I think the astral projection/let's-meet -up-in-our-dreams/bullsh!t part of this forum BRINGS IT DOWN and puts off many people... Lets kick them off the site! It's not real science! Lucid dreaming IS. It has been researched and CAN be proved! Astral Projection my fat A$$.

I’m not sure I'd go that far, but I can definitely relate with what your feeling. I too have my doubts about astral projection and dream linking, but on the other hand I have personally experienced things that have suggested the possible existence of "supernatural" abilities, which I feel is a misleading word because I don’t actually think such abilities are "supernatural", just unrecognized.


I have even done experiments to test some of my results when it came to Ethereal Projections, which can be found in my journal if anyone is interested (or I can copy paste my results if preferred). And though I don’t think OBE's or projections are literally the "spirit" leaving the body, nor do I believe in spirit guides or things of that sort, I do think that there is a possibility that extra sensory perception, in some form, could exist. This of course is based off of my own results, which I admit are lacking. But I am doing a second experiment however.

The point is that I try to keep a neutral stance on things, yet at the same time I actively try to discover the truth in my experiences. It’s not just me having a projection and saying "well, based on my experience I can make my soul leave my body" because it takes more than the personal experience to find truth. If I hadn’t tested my "psi" abilities by putting a glass over the psi wheel, then I too might be thinking "well I’ve done it myself, so I know it’s possible" …because after all, the psi wheel *did* spin. It just turns out it wasn’t because of telekinesis. But that could have only been determined by testing my abilities.

Without doing that, none of these claims have any merit at all...even those that have been experienced first hand. Shit, I have spin a psi wheel too. Ive even done it in front of people. But what I was doing wasnt telekinesis, though at the time I thought it was, or at least could be. The only reason I now know better is because I didnt just stop at the personal expereince, I applied science.

Finally back from hockey and a vacation! It was nice to get a break from everything, but here I am ready to argue? Nah..

See, I agree with Astral Explorer, although he never truly stated his belief as to psionics. Humans simply will not believe anything unless society and/or science says it's true.

What is the problem with the argument of "Practice and see your own results as proof?" Nothing.

Just because you saw no results, does not mean it isn't true. Can you run a 3 minute mile, 4 minute, 5 minute? No (it's just an example, so if you can, shh. :p) Does that mean it's not possible? No. And yes, I know that it has been proven to be possible, but that isn't the point. The point is, just because you can't do something, doesn't mean it isn't true.

The Wig- Yep, I can...getting there too.

Anyways, obviously there is no point in me stating my position on this argument. You guys are simply to close-minded to listen to what I have to say. Also, I understand and have stated that I really haven't given you any reason to fully believe me, and I know that there are many crazy people claiming incredible things that seem impossible. However, the point was simply to open a few people's minds, and maybe help them to understand some of the abilities that we as conscious beings have. And, I know that I have opened a few people's minds, and that makes me very happy and I'm glad for those people.

However, I don't need to argue any more about this....it is done. There is simply no reason to keep this going as neither side is having an effect on the other!

In reagrds to the "do it yourself" argument:

Originally Posted by ethen

You want to know what the problem is with this argument? It has no actual substance to it. Let me explain. You see, I have tried this, and it stopped working as soon as I put a glass over the psi wheel. Those *are* my results, and they don't seem to compliment your cause. But you see, the catch 22 with the "do it yourself" argument is that if someone actually does try it, but doesn’t get positive results, there is the convenient backdoor retreat of "well then you need to try harder".

I could say the exact same thing about anything that is otherwise impossible...like turning air into 100 dollar bills. All I need to do is say that I have done it myself, and if you want proof to do it yourself too. And when you fail (because it's impossible) all I need to say is "Well I know it can be done, because I have done it, so just because you can't do it doesnt mean it can't be done...".

But as you can see, like the air-to-cash example, there is no reason whatsoever that we would have to settle for "do-it-yourself proof" of telekinesis when such a phenomenon can be done in front of, and examined by, professionals. Right?

So what do you have to say about that? Explain to me why, when it comes to TK, people seem to think they are exempt from scientific analysis...

read this please.

Done. I don't get it. What are you trying to say? I find it humorous that you are telling me that something I have done does not exist. Can't you see how I would find that funny?

Yep, that argument has flaws like almost if not all other arguments...however, it's the truthful one...that's all there is to it.

You don't get it? Let me explain it to you. The "do it yourself" argument is moot, and there is no reason why TK can't be performed in front of scientists in a lab, which means there is no good reason to have to settle for "do it yourself" proof, now is there?

Catching on?

Your word is worthless as evidence, which makes the come back "what’s funny is you telling me I can't do something I have done" worthless as a result. If you want to know why, look at my air-to-cash example. The fallacy is that this sort of argument relies wholly on the subjective experience, which means the negative results apparently mean nothing, and the positive results are objectively unsubstantiated, which is a fancy way of saying "hear-say'. The thing though is that you assume that is the only type of evidence you can get when it comes to TK...which is utter bullshit.

What’s funny is the way you seem to have no comprehension of the importance of objective, empirical evidence…. or the way you think you can undercut the suspicious absence of scientific evidence with your testimony. That’s what’s funny.

Yep, that argument has flaws like almost if not all other arguments...however, it's the truthful one...that's all there is to it.

and what say you about why there is no other type of evidence besides the subjective experience? Did you read how I have made a psi wheel spin, and how that personal expereince, when unverified, means absolutely nothing?

The point is that I try to keep a neutral stance on things, yet at the same time I actively try to discover the truth in my experiences. It’s not just me having a projection and saying "well, based on my experience I can make my soul leave my body" because it takes more than the personal experience to find truth. If I hadn’t tested my "psi" abilities by putting a glass over the psi wheel, then I too might be thinking "well I’ve done it myself, so I know it’s possible" …because after all, the psi wheel *did* spin. It just turns out it wasn’t because of telekinesis. But that could have only been determined by testing my abilities.

Without doing that, none of these claims have any merit at all...even those that have been experienced first hand. Shit, I have spin a psi wheel too. Ive even done it in front of people. But what I was doing wasnt telekinesis, though at the time I thought it was, or at least could be. The only reason I now know better is because I didnt just stop at the personal expereince, I applied science.

The point being there is nothing you can say that will justify why the scientific community has yet to substantiate telekinesis, and that is very fucking suspicious if you ask me.

yeah, it makes perfect sense to me that lucid dreaming is real I mean in your dream if you think your not dreaming it makes equal sense that you wil beable to think that you are dreaming.

Scentists don't study lucid dreaming because there is no use for it really (at least no really practicle use for it, plus theres not much to study), and there are a very small number that do study it.

Well, all very true what you said, ethen. But the fact is, I understand that my word cannot easily just be trusted. I mean, I have as much reason to believe that you can turn air into cash as you have to believe me. Unfortunetely, I have +19,000 claiming the same thing, while you are only yourself.

Of course, I understand that 19,000 people have nothing better to do than claim to do this, and spend +1 year(s) on the internet writing more than 500 posts each on a forum about these kinds of things...

And also, I am not going to go to a scientist. I don't want the publicity, I don't wanna "force" anyone to believe in this, and I don't wanna be ridiculed by people who will call me a fake....or more people than already, hehe.

You act like I don't understand that my word is "moot", and yet of course I realize that. But the thing is, I don't mind you not believing. Again, I was only trying to open some minds, and you are not one of them, evidently. And that's fine, it's absolutely your choice.

Ok fine..You guys win. You want proof, I'll give you it.

(List stolen from Sean and JoeT)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology
http://www.parapsychology.org/
http://www.parapsychologydegrees.com/
http://www.rhine.org/
http://perso.orange.fr/basuyaux/parapsy_eng/links/
http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/
http://www.espresearch.com/
http://www.parapsych.org/
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0003044
http://www.ions.org/
http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/
http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~abraham/psy1.html
http://www.fmbr.org/
http://www.psywww.com/asc/obe/missz.html


Theres your godamn proof. Scientists and the government has been all over paraphycology for a long time. And guess what? Somebody called me childish.. I dont give a fuck! Haha!! I can be childish if I want, its got nothing to do with paraphycology and if its real or not.

we are not talking about general parapsychology, we are talking SPECIFICALLY about telekinesis. Nice try though. Give me some reliable proof of telekinesis, and then maybe we can actually make some progress...

Originally Posted by magicdood

Well, all very true what you said, ethen. But the fact is, I understand that my word cannot easily just be trusted. I mean, I have as much reason to believe that you can turn air into cash as you have to believe me. Unfortunetely, I have +19,000 claiming the same thing, while you are only yourself.

Of course, I understand that 19,000 people have nothing better to do than claim to do this, and spend +1 year(s) on the internet writing more than 500 posts each on a forum about these kinds of things...

And also, I am not going to go to a scientist. I don't want the publicity, I don't wanna "force" anyone to believe in this, and I don't wanna be ridiculed by people who will call me a fake....or more people than already, hehe.

You act like I don't understand that my word is "moot", and yet of course I realize that. But the thing is, I don't mind you not believing. Again, I was only trying to open some minds, and you are not one of them, evidently. And that's fine, it's absolutely your choice.

You are so full of shit. you expect me to believe that, of those 19000 not one person is willing to go to sceince? lmao

Like I said earlier, that "impressive figure" of 19000 only hurts your argument because its all the more unlikely that TK is just an unrecognised phenomenon that only few have. It make me think that, with a skill that wide spread, it must be bullshit for it to still not have any decent evidence...lol

Originally Posted by Gumby123psi

Theres your godamn proof. Scientists and the government has been all over paraphycology for a long time. And guess what? Somebody called me childish.. I dont give a fuck! Haha!! I can be childish if I want, its got nothing to do with paraphycology and if its real or not.

Wow... did you read all the material on those links? Here's a section of your first link you might have missed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology#Fraud

No Ethen, as I have clearly stated I don't expect you to believe it.