Thread: OOBE's proved wrong

thanks.

i was just mad how they got a group of scientists and tried to say that all of the scientific community agrees with them. i could go on the internet and find a group of "scientists" that say evolution is false and the earth is 6000 years old. (no offence to any ones personal beliefs)

EDIT: i would also like to point out one thing that hurts the dream theory. thousands of people who have had NDE's report some of the same features. a very large percent say they saw "Beings" made out of light. a very large percentage say they had a life review and they could instantly feel all the effects they had on people. and a significant percentage report a border "Limit". Sometimes it’s a door or a line on the ground. and they are told if they cross into the other side they can never return. these are just a few examples. i know there are exceptions but its rare to have two different people having the same dream. are you really prepared to say there is nothing odd about thousands of people who have the same hallucination. im not saying this is proof, but it sure is perplexing

my problem with this video is they don't finish thinking about the subject at hand. They should have actually listened to the writer who was "out to make a buck." He had a good point in saying that the believers and the disbelievers were in the same boat, the believers being the ones who think accounts of ND OOBEs prove anything and the nonbelievers being the ones who believe that a physiological reasoning proves there isn't an "afterlife." THE FACT THERE IS PHYSIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE THAT OOBES ARE A NATURAL OCCURANCE IN THE BRAIN DOES NOT IN ANYWAY PROVE THERE ISN'T SPIRITUAL OR OTHERWORLDLY SIGNIFICANCE. That is, I believe, what Dr. Moody's point was.
Penn and Teller are so smug they just slap the title of "out to make a buck" on him, because he isn't an atheist. He does want to make money off of his opinions. And so do Penn and Teller. I have no problem with that. They just have to be hypocrital, smug jerks.

sorry for the rant, Penn and Teller just really should think more openmindedly about the whole thing... they are just so smug.

i totally absolutely agree jamous, i was wondering if that writer they made fun of knew what was happening. poor women probably really believed what happened to her and didn’t know she was invited on a show just to be made fun of

Originally Posted by Matt5678

i totally absolutely agree jamous, i was wondering if that writer they made fun of knew what was happening. poor women probably really believed what happened to her and didn’t know she was invited on a show just to be made fun of

seriously, they hypocritically criticized the writer who made more sense than they did, and made out these people who were only reporting they're personal experiences to be fools, just because they believed there was meaning in their NDEs. I have no problem with Atheists, just being a smug asshole about it.

I don't know why people discuss more about Penn and Teller than the topic itself

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I don't know why people discuss more about Penn and Teller than the topic itself

I wonder that as well. I agree they are very one-sided and a bit bullying, but that shouldn't make one discount the experiences of the people in the experiment, which wasn't even conducted by P&T.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Oh yeah, you do?

Let's do some scientifical experiment then. I really think you don't see things that happened everytime you have (what you think to be) an OBE. It's like once in many, many occurances.

I'm am my body. My brain is my body, my thoughts are my body. It's all physical. What you call a soul is all just another great tool evolution gave us, which is consciousness.


If something cannot be proven by science in any way, high chances are it is false. There is a pink elephant behind you right now, but I can't prove it scientifically you know. You have to believe it yourself.

Thoughts are physical? For such a Science-Fan you sure suck at logics. So what does a thought look like? What's it feel like? How big is a tought? I mean, come on man; Have you ever caught and touched a Thought? Sounds like you are more delusional than all spiritualists together in a swimmingpool full of LSD.

Thoughts are abstract. The opposite of concrete. Please find a Dictionairy and read the defenition of Abstract. You have alot still to learn. The body is concrete as is the ground, the ocean and the sky, but the Mind, it's thoughts, dreams and emotions: Those are the ABSTRACTS of life. Scientists that are mentally blindfolded for the truth denie the possible existance of almost all the abstracts of life.

This is off course very stupid and by viewing reality in this narrow, determenistic way you can research till the end of days, but you're missing out on a HUUUUUGE part of what reality really is.

The brain and the mind: 2 completely different things. The one being a physical Organ, the other being an abstract mistery. It is only speculated that the brain "generates" the mind, but how Concrete, physical Material can turn into Abstract conscious spirit; no one knows. Scientists rather avoid the question which is why they are ...how would you say that... STUPID.
There is so much to be explored in the abstract realm of existance. All scientists need to do is get rid of their pre-assumptions and ignorance towards questionable, abstract matters in life and look into them without assumptions and with an open mind and curiosity. Instead they turn their back on these questions and, without any conclusive research, declare these matters "bullshit". How full of shit they are.

Be open for the Truth, whatever it may be.

Originally Posted by SKA

Thoughts are physical? For such a Science-Fan you sure suck at logics. So what does a thought look like? What's it feel like? How big is a tought? I mean, come on man; Have you ever caught and touched a Thought? Sounds like you are more delusional than all spiritualists together in a swimmingpool full of LSD.

Thoughts are abstract. The opposite of concrete. Please find a Dictionairy and read the defenition of Abstract. You have alot still to learn. The body is concrete as is the ground, the ocean and the sky, but the Mind, it's thoughts, dreams and emotions: Those are the ABSTRACTS of life. Scientists that are mentally blindfolded for the truth denie the possible existance of almost all the abstracts of life.

This is off course very stupid and by viewing reality in this narrow, determenistic way you can research till the end of days, but you're missing out on a HUUUUUGE part of what reality really is.

The brain and the mind: 2 completely different things. The one being a physical Organ, the other being an abstract mistery. It is only speculated that the brain "generates" the mind, but how Concrete, physical Material can turn into Abstract conscious spirit; no one knows. Scientists rather avoid the question which is why they are ...how would you say that... STUPID.
There is so much to be explored in the abstract realm of existance. All scientists need to do is get rid of their pre-assumptions and ignorance towards questionable, abstract matters in life and look into them without assumptions and with an open mind and curiosity. Instead they turn their back on these questions and, without any conclusive research, declare these matters "bullshit". How full of shit they are.

Be open for the Truth, whatever it may be.

I don't know if they're stupid, but yea, you're very right, thoughts and the mind are indeed different than the brain, the abstract representation of the tangeable or physical.

almost like this I guess, "brain" is to "mind" as "physical" is to "spiritual" as "hallucinations" might be to "NDEs" as the tangeable physical is to the abstract

I've seen that episode that doen't prove OBE's wrong it may say that some exeperiences are false, I mean if you tell someone to see somehting they will see it, it's just those people arn't used to telling their minds to do something so they have never done it and when they do it the first time, they someone think it's paranormal.

I personally don't believe in OBE's or NDE's because they are all too similar to dreams or hallucinations. Think about it, if you are religious and have say followed the bible most of your life and are a good person, you are expecting to get into what the religion calls heaven, now if you are about to die you may have accepted death and the most dominant thought is most likely going to be heaven and just like with a dream you can think about something before you go to bed and dream about it. Its similar and like they said with the brain being depreived of blood you will probably hallucinate or black out and to see such strange things would be normal, nothing paranormal or what not. Well thats my two cents on the video.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

It doesn't mean philosophy is always right.

Science is trustworthy because of the scientific method. It excludes almost every possibility of a wrong thesis.
Even for that reason, psychology took years to become a science. Nowadays, it's limited to concepts, since psychological theses always involuntarily touch the concepts of perception, awareness, ethics, and all that's related to it. That is mostly social science: social science is the study of how society developed and how it functions to us. That's why I still think psychiatry is better (although I do not agree with a lot of it).

This debate is currently one of the most important ones, if not the most influential, between philosophy and science.
We have shown two sides of this debate and i hope it won't go ignored and will inspire people to think about and question their existence; their beliefs, goals, actions, everything, as they feel fit.
There are multiple answers to our questions though only one may be right to any of us, and i think Kromoh and i can agree we may all pick a different answer based on our current situation.

So i hope we will all respect each others views on this in the knowledge we would believe as others do when in their position and that many more people will open up and show their colors concerning everything real or unreal, without feeling threatened by other views as in the end who determines whether You are really right or wrong is still You.

If anyone wishes to enrich our views i hope they will have the courage to speak up. The lack of responses hurt me, as i see people telling You how to live without knowing life. If there is something You feel insecure about but think You disagree with or want to ask or add, You can always IM me to keep it between us and i will respond when and if i can without stigma. I am still limited but will do my best to find the way to our ideal situation, as any of us.

Originally Posted by Lucid Seeker

I personally don't believe in OBE's or NDE's because they are all too similar to dreams or hallucinations.

you're right. I am about positive they should be under the same category. But I tend to believe that dreams and hallucinations are, on some levels, of spiritual or religious significance. I have experienced very vague instances of prophetic dreaming, which I find just compelling enough to allow me to believe there might be such a thing, though I also have normal, meaningless dreams.

Originally Posted by Lucid Seeker

I personally don't believe in OBE's or NDE's because they are all too similar to dreams or hallucinations. Think about it, if you are religious and have say followed the bible most of your life and are a good person, you are expecting to get into what the religion calls heaven, now if you are about to die you may have accepted death and the most dominant thought is most likely going to be heaven and just like with a dream you can think about something before you go to bed and dream about it. Its similar and like they said with the brain being depreived of blood you will probably hallucinate or black out and to see such strange things would be normal, nothing paranormal or what not. Well thats my two cents on the video.

I agree. The only difference I have in my view is that OBEs and NDEs are real. So I have to believe in their existence as far as experiences goes. I just think that aren't the same "type" of experiences as what their names imply. Like you, I think that they are merely hallucinogenic, dream-like experiences misinterpreted and misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

I agree. The only difference I have in my view is that OBEs and NDEs are real. So I have to believe in their existence as far as experiences goes. I just think that aren't the same "type" of experiences as what their names imply. Like you, I think that they are merely hallucinogenic, dream-like experiences misinterpreted and misunderstood.

Yes, I was gonna point that out. They ARE real. Penn and Teller were sort of proving it in there video actually. They were also saying, like you, that they are just hallucinations. I don't think NDEs or OOBEs prove or disprove anything spiritual at all. They probably are just dreams or hallucinations, but that doesn't mean anything.

Originally Posted by SKA

Thoughts are physical? For such a Science-Fan you sure suck at logics. So what does a thought look like? What's it feel like? How big is a tought? I mean, come on man; Have you ever caught and touched a Thought? Sounds like you are more delusional than all spiritualists together in a swimmingpool full of LSD.

Thoughts are abstract. The opposite of concrete. Please find a Dictionairy and read the defenition of Abstract. You have alot still to learn. The body is concrete as is the ground, the ocean and the sky, but the Mind, it's thoughts, dreams and emotions: Those are the ABSTRACTS of life. Scientists that are mentally blindfolded for the truth denie the possible existance of almost all the abstracts of life.

This is off course very stupid and by viewing reality in this narrow, determenistic way you can research till the end of days, but you're missing out on a HUUUUUGE part of what reality really is.

The brain and the mind: 2 completely different things. The one being a physical Organ, the other being an abstract mistery. It is only speculated that the brain "generates" the mind, but how Concrete, physical Material can turn into Abstract conscious spirit; no one knows. Scientists rather avoid the question which is why they are ...how would you say that... STUPID.
There is so much to be explored in the abstract realm of existance. All scientists need to do is get rid of their pre-assumptions and ignorance towards questionable, abstract matters in life and look into them without assumptions and with an open mind and curiosity. Instead they turn their back on these questions and, without any conclusive research, declare these matters "bullshit". How full of shit they are.

Be open for the Truth, whatever it may be.

All I saw in your post was messing around concepts.

Science does not only study what's concrete (not in your definition of concrete, I mean).

Have you ever caught light? How big is it? Could you touch it? I wouldn't call light concrete, and yet science can and does explai it.

The same comes with thoughts. The brain creates a complex (and I mean really complex, impossible to completely map) system of actions and reactions that creates thought. What you see with your eyes is analysed by your brain, then it is made conscious (which means it is projected to other parts of the brain) and, if there is any correspondence (e.g. a cat reminding you of your own pet) the information will be processed and also brought up to consciousness. Again, it is a complex system of action and reaction.

Of course that is an example, the mind works in several varied ways, which somehow challenge psychiatry, but you cannot say thoughts aren't proven by science.


Scientists DO look at things with curiosity. The difference is that they do not believe any explanatio nthey hear of. If it isn't logical, a skeptical one is likely not to believe it. It doesn't mean, though, that that one completely denies the subject or that he is close minded: he just used common sense as to what to believe or not. Believing everything is a bad thing, and has only one result: brainwashing (see www.godhatesfags.com for an example of religious brainwashing).


People always come up with blatantly senseless rationalizations about what they don't know. And their fear for the unknown usually creates explanations involving gods, ghosts, spirit, psi powers and all the boring stuff.
One with minimal common sense will not believe everything they see. Skepticism is not like saying "I don't and never will believe it". Skepticism is saying "I do not believe it unless it has some logical explanation".

Yes, Penn and Teller are somehow lacking manners when explaining things, but everything I've heard from them so far is completely meaningful and rational.

Reviewing the video, I would say my main problem with it [aside from them being smug dicks] is that it really seems like they are being hypocritical, not just about the "out to make a buck" thing, but in that they seem to see the information gathered as proof against an afterlife, while they are complaining that people see it as proof that there is. Like Dr. Moody says, that believers and nonbelievers are the same. It doesn't prove anything one way or another. Science cannot touch spirituality or at least cannot yet touch it. The tangeable, physiological brain versus the abstract and in this case specifically spiritual goings-on in the mind.

I hope that makes sense. And if I'm misinterpereting Penn's point call me on it.

I think he means that the nonbelievers use science, while the believers don't

Originally Posted by jamous

Yes, I was gonna point that out. They ARE real. Penn and Teller were sort of proving it in there video actually. They were also saying, like you, that they are just hallucinations. I don't think NDEs or OOBEs prove or disprove anything spiritual at all. They probably are just dreams or hallucinations, but that doesn't mean anything.

Hallucinations yes, but could be a preview of whatever the afterlife is. If it wasn't a hallucination you're dead for good. Because you dont die forever you get a glimpse of what is ahead of you in a form of hallucination but not a science term which would be fake images.

Kromoh: I agree with you on a lot of points with a few exceptions.
The main one being your view that what science cannot prove, is highly unlikely to exist.

I get the distinct impression based on statements like 'God does not exist' that you take that to the point of not being truly skeptical any more (ie questioning/doubting)

Lucid dreaming was one of those things that scientists laughed at as ridiculous kooky stuff, for quite a long time.
Turns out it was true.

If you were living in those days, would you have said 'lucid dreaming doesn't happen', just as a matter of scientific principle?

Originally Posted by Placebo

If you were living in those days, would you have said 'lucid dreaming doesn't happen', just as a matter of scientific principle?

Lol. I don't base my views on what scientists think, but on what scientifical evidence there is for them. Lucid dreaming si often associated with all that new age stuff, but the concept of it is actually quite possible - counsciousness when one's dreaming. Yes, I'd not immediately believe it if there was no scientifical backing to it, and that's the point of having an argument in my opinion.

Ah, fair enough. You're more cynical about things that aren't easily conceivable as possibilities, hence your attitude about OOBE and God -> Occam's razor and all that.
The God part would be debatable for theists, but I get your drift.

Originally Posted by Swank

Try searching for 'God Proved Wrong' videos. Im sure theres a few also

Ha! You can't prove God wrong or right. It's something called faith. It's the way God meant it to be. Humans will never know for sure if there is or isn't a God. There is no way to prove it. Now, I know there is a God, but it's not because it's been proven. It's because I have faith.

Holy resurrecting threads from yesteryear.

That said, OOBEs are easy to prove.... if they're real. Just have an OOBEer walk their soul into the next room to read a message, or just see what object is on a table or some such, which they couldn't see with their physical eyes. Or have them relay a secret message to another OOBEer. Tah Da!!! OOBEs proven real. Why hasn't this been done? Conspiracy? Can OOBEs not be done for a scientific study for some reason?