Thread: OOBE's proved wrong

Originally Posted by Kromoh

For 2 reasons:

1) I'm skeptical.

2) God doesn't exist.

You can also try to prove things by other means than science, but science is the closest thing from truth we have.

Ah, good enough. I didn't mean you per say, i ment everything in general in the world. People believe in something and others saying their is no scientific proof so it's false or whatever.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Doesn't that seem a bit... pagan? To you?

Why should we have a spirit or life force? It seems clear to me that 'theories' like this are born of ignorance of the mechanics of the human brain. There is no evidence for these claims, and they're grossly unscientific.

im not saying im a believer i spirits or lifeforces, and im not pagan lol or anything. i go by what i feel, and by what i experience, ok maybe im a bit of a spiritual person , but if i am it comes from within me, not by following any kind of belief, i dont care if i die and thats it,nothing, im not scared of death,
my gut feeling is we get reborn, but thats a gut feeling,not a hope or wish,i really dont give a monkeys backside either way

while im here id like to share with you what happened to me at around 3 oclock this morning.i entered this lucid state once again,different from before,i was trying to control what i was going to dream,
without success, i was hoping for the white light to make an appearance which it did for a couple of seconds then bang, im zooming through a tunnel in space (dont laugh) at an incredible speed, before slowing down ,im looking at these galaxies full of color ect ( im not a space anorak by the way) then suddenly a light appears,gets bigger and im suddenly looking in on a room from the ceiling at a man having a go at his little girl,i wanted to say something but then backwards i go through space ect, end up in a kind of black void,aware of what just happened,but still in this lucid state,aware of my arm hanging out of the bed unable to move,thats when i started to call for the old hag that ive read about,to see what would happen,well i began to sense something bad in the room,im not scared of no old hag, cos i knew i was laying in bed,and it was a lucid dream, until i felt a weight geting on the bed like when someone climbs over you, thats when i called timeout, and awoke myself. cool

Originally Posted by Kromoh

How are you so sure? One person seeign something that happened doesn't prove anything. Behind him/her there are 1,000,000 other people who had an OBE and didn't see what happened.

Ever heard the word "coincidence"?


Finally, you can still hear or maybe even see things while dreaming. That again makes me suspiscious about OBEs.




I don't think scientists are stupid at all

dude, it cant be a coincidence that every time that you get out of your body you see exactly the things that happened.

and why is it so dificult to believe that there is something more than your body ,that something more is you. you are energy , negative and positive energy that constitutes you.
you are your mind and soul, the body is just a physical way to interact with the physical world

and by stupid scientists i dont mean academically , i mean that they deny everything that cant be prooven with science. and deny to proove it by experience thats the stupid part

Originally Posted by TheSixthSide

God is real. He gave us a soul too. If we didn't have a soul then we would be just like the animals foxes, bears etc.
.

that is the worse error that christianity has commited,
how can you say that animals dont have soul , dont you see the amount of love that they express between themselves and even to other animals , and even to the most stupid animal in the world that is the human which cant realize the harm that we humans are doing to the world and the shit hole that we are making out of it. Dont you think that the we humans are the only animals close to have no soul?

Dont you see the contrast between the perfection of nature and the corruption and living hell that is the human world?

nature is divine, they only do harm if they need to eat out of it

Originally Posted by lvlindless

http://youtube.com/watch?v=714AS39CQ_I

I knew it, there's no such thing as Near Death or Out of Body experiences.

Apparently all they are, are extremely vivid and dreamlike delusional hallucinations due to nutrient and blood loss from the brain. So... the ultimate lucid dreams.

That situation You described sounds an awful lot like the near death situation. Lack of oxygen, blood, nutrient, whatever. I don't see what's so weird with near death experiences occurring by using one of those near death situations.
They don't really get into kinds of OBE or near death experiences. Many claim to see something happening in other places which turns out to be true. I don't claim this is true but ignoring it completely is a bit sloppy
The worst part: You trust the watch instead of the experience...
How can the apparent conclusion that it's all a trick of the mind prove it is not 'real'? Because reality isn't a trick of the mind?

Originally Posted by viking-45

that is the worse error that christianity has commited,
how can you say that animals dont have soul , dont you see the amount of love that they express between themselves and even to other animals , and even to the most stupid animal in the world that is the human which cant realize the harm that we humans are doing to the world and the shit hole that we are making out of it. Dont you think that the we humans are the only animals close to have no soul?

Dont you see the contrast between the perfection of nature and the corruption and living hell that is the human world?

nature is divine, they only do harm if they need to eat out of it

You don't need a soul to produce love or emotions and in all my years I've never ever heard of a person seeing/hearing a ghost of an animal.

If evolution is real and God doesn't exist. Then how come the bible predicts the end of the world? It predicted 9/11 and the Jews returning to their homeland. Before you disbelieve something you should at least take interest in it and find out if it's true or not. Our nation was founded on biblical principles and now people are trying to abolish those principles. That's the only reason the U.S. will ever fall or become corrupt (which it's beginning too).

Originally Posted by viking-45

dude, it cant be a coincidence that every time that you get out of your body you see exactly the things that happened.

and why is it so dificult to believe that there is something more than your body ,that something more is you. you are energy , negative and positive energy that constitutes you.
you are your mind and soul, the body is just a physical way to interact with the physical world

and by stupid scientists i dont mean academically , i mean that they deny everything that cant be prooven with science. and deny to proove it by experience thats the stupid part

Oh yeah, you do?

Let's do some scientifical experiment then. I really think you don't see things that happened everytime you have (what you think to be) an OBE. It's like once in many, many occurances.

I'm am my body. My brain is my body, my thoughts are my body. It's all physical. What you call a soul is all just another great tool evolution gave us, which is consciousness.


If something cannot be proven by science in any way, high chances are it is false. There is a pink elephant behind you right now, but I can't prove it scientifically you know. You have to believe it yourself.

Originally Posted by Mocari

That situation You described sounds an awful lot like the near death situation. Lack of oxygen, blood, nutrient, whatever. I don't see what's so weird with near death experiences occurring by using one of those near death situations.
They don't really get into kinds of OBE or near death experiences. Many claim to see something happening in other places which turns out to be true. I don't claim this is true but ignoring it completely is a bit sloppy
The worst part: You trust the watch instead of the experience...
How can the apparent conclusion that it's all a trick of the mind prove it is not 'real'? Because reality isn't a trick of the mind?

All I'm saying is that when you have an OBE you really aren't... "out of body", it's all in your head. Just a very vivid dream in which you are extremely self aware. I didn't say they weren't "real." Lucid dreams are completely real to YOU, but that doesn't mean they actually happened. It's a different kind of real I'm trying to point out is false, a real that exists in the physical world.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Oh yeah, you do?

Let's do some scientifical experiment then. I really think you don't see things that happened everytime you have (what you think to be) an OBE. It's like once in many, many occurances.

I'm am my body. My brain is my body, my thoughts are my body. It's all physical. What you call a soul is all just another great tool evolution gave us, which is consciousness.


If something cannot be proven by science in any way, high chances are it is false. There is a pink elephant behind you right now, but I can't prove it scientifically you know. You have to believe it yourself.

Whose body is it?

It's the body that composes my being. It's the body that completes me.

My body isn't mine; my body is ME. My toes are me, my ears are me, my hair is me.

My hands belong to my brain as well as my brain belongs to my hands.



i hate when people mess around the word "me" to try to prove sometging philosophical. If you have personality problems, it's not my fault xD

Originally Posted by Kromoh

It's the body that composes my being. It's the body that completes me.

My body isn't mine; my body is ME. My toes are me, my ears are me, my hair is me.

My hands belong to my brain as well as my brain belongs to my hands.



i hate when people mess around the word "me" to try to prove sometging philosophical. If you have personality problems, it's not my fault xD

Ow i didn't want to prove anything. I don't even believe proof is needed for anything. Usually it sparks a realization or sense of being more.
Proof requires consistency and ruling out, and honestly i do not believe reality to be consistent or partial at all.
In science we drop a ball and it falls down. There's no emotion, no faith. The roots of reality and of science are left out.
If i am angry at my mom, and drop a ball, i may see it fall straight ahead into her face. But we don't record that do we? Because it's inconsistent, it's subjective, it must be an illusion. Well that's sure one way to look at it.
Science takes faith. It shows us consistency, something to hold on to, but i don't believe it shows us truth. I have never really seen science as truth, rather as our convenient version of it. In that regard it only shows the truth we now believe in, but is limited to our coloration and can not show our capability of coloring. That only happens when we open our minds to more than science.
This way the world makes a lot of sense to me.
In that light, i don't understand people who don't want to see other people dwell away from scientific truth and embrace their fantasies. I am like the other way around. For example i actually envy Christians who are capable of believing they will go to heaven and would wish for that belief to spread as wide and deeply as can be.

I know science is cold, but that's the beauty of it. Many people think that non-religious people are imoral, because they generalise things. Religion involves morality, yes, but being religious is not necessary for being moral.

Science might even take faith, but it takes far less faith than anything else, because it is self explanatory. It is logical, so to say. You see the meaning behind it.



There are other things that can give your life meaning apart from religion. Learning, creating, making art.. Saying that believing i nscience makes one cold is a bad assumption.
Believing tha teher is no afterlife, that our life ends here, has a far more beautiful message of love than the one religion provides.

Religion is the one that provides a convenient explanation, not science. Actually, religion is the one to provide convenience: believing in something that makes us feel good.


If you accept a Christian to spread their beliefs, why don't you accept a naturalistic to spread his? That's pretty much biased i guess. Either you treat everyone equally, or you treat every single human being differently. Generalising is never a good idea.

The video is very convincing and offers a good explanation, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

I know science is cold, but that's the beauty of it. Many people think that non-religious people are imoral, because they generalise things. Religion involves morality, yes, but being religious is not necessary for being moral.

Science might even take faith, but it takes far less faith than anything else, because it is self explanatory. It is logical, so to say. You see the meaning behind it.



There are other things that can give your life meaning apart from religion. Learning, creating, making art.. Saying that believing i nscience makes one cold is a bad assumption.
Believing tha teher is no afterlife, that our life ends here, has a far more beautiful message of love than the one religion provides.

Religion is the one that provides a convenient explanation, not science. Actually, religion is the one to provide convenience: believing in something that makes us feel good.


If you accept a Christian to spread their beliefs, why don't you accept a naturalistic to spread his? That's pretty much biased i guess. Either you treat everyone equally, or you treat every single human being differently. Generalising is never a good idea.

I don't understand how certain religions aren't self explanatory. Aren't they all?
Now i never said believing in science makes someone cold. What i did mean to say is that i don't believe science covers the entire truth. It may one day do that, but i don't think that would be the best choice.

I also don't believe anything can beat a paradise, in terms of beauty or love. Science doesn't provide the ultimate fantasy.
And all sides provide convenient explanations. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. All i mean is that science doesn't have to be all there is to this world. And i would really like people to not limit themselves to one string of thoughts. I'm a very lazy person, i like convenient explanations a lot, and i don't see the point of delving deeper when a convenient, perhaps false, explanation gets You where You want to be.

Ow of course i'm biased. Who isn't? For example i would rather live with a promise of heaven than with a science that proves it wrong. This is a wild card; in my opinion the whole deal with existing is being biased. If i didn't have any bias, than what good am i? Sure my influence could be utilized by others, but there wouldn't be any room for me.
I wouldn't like a world without me.

Well our personalities are pretty much different.

Man, look at the human potential. Look at the horizon we have. Our society can be much better.

No matter how comforting it can sound, being wrong isn't a good kind of convenience in my opinion. If you dislike to be right, because it involves effort, then you should pretty much give up pointing out your opinion.


All I see is prejudice in your post. Judging naturalistic people too much.

Me:
If you accept a Christian to spread their beliefs, why don't you accept a naturalistic to spread his? That's pretty much biased i guess.

You:
Ow of course i'm biased.


I'd rather not be known at all than be known as a bad person.


The same way you agree with religious people spreading their faith, I agree with naturalistic people fighting people's faith.

You must pretty much like the bliss of ignorance. I respect you for that, but find you rather weak of character.

If you say you wouldn't want science to one day know everything, then it means you don't want to know, you wanna close your eyes.

Again a previous argument of mine proves useful:

Science is always changing and adaptating to new data, so that it is always as close as possible to being correct.
Faith is believing blindly in something and never changing it. If your beliefs are wrong, you'll be wrong for a lifetime.

And yet again I'll state I choose science. My reasons are obvious.

Originally Posted by viking-45

Dont you see the contrast between the perfection of nature and the corruption and living hell that is the human world?

You do realize that Humans are part of nature too, right?

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Well our personalities are pretty much different.

Man, look at the human potential. Look at the horizon we have. Our society can be much better.

No matter how comforting it can sound, being wrong isn't a good kind of convenience in my opinion. If you dislike to be right, because it involves effort, then you should pretty much give up pointing out your opinion.


All I see is prejudice in your post. Judging naturalistic people too much.

Me:
If you accept a Christian to spread their beliefs, why don't you accept a naturalistic to spread his? That's pretty much biased i guess.

You:
Ow of course i'm biased.


I'd rather not be known at all than be known as a bad person.


The same way you agree with religious people spreading their faith, I agree with naturalistic people fighting people's faith.

You must pretty much like the bliss of ignorance. I respect you for that, but find you rather weak of character.

If you say you wouldn't want science to one day know everything, then it means you don't want to know, you wanna close your eyes.

Again a previous argument of mine proves useful:

Science is always changing and adaptating to new data, so that it is always as close as possible to being correct.
Faith is believing blindly in something and never changing it. If your beliefs are wrong, you'll be wrong for a lifetime.

And yet again I'll state I choose science. My reasons are obvious.

Science gets us somewhere but i'm not so sure it has gotten us that far. I can't really measure it. It's certainly been useful, but as far as we know there may have been a different take on truth that would have gotten us much further. There's still infinite room for improvement, we agree on that.

I haven't been talking about right or wrong. But i understand our beliefs on what the right mindset is like, differ.

I'm not aware of being a bad person, and have little direct control over how people view me. I say one thing they hear ten others. I don't know myself as a bad person, but i would if i would ignore my own beliefs. We agree on rather being not known than being known as a bad person.

I dislike ignorance as much as You do. It causes misunderstanding, and harm.
Science isn't me. I would like to know things, but knowing things according to me, does not have to be the same as knowing things according to You, or science. I see more ways to know things than through a scientific approach.

My beliefs have changed plenty of times, it is nothing rigid. Science kept changing because it kept being wrong, alike my beliefs. But science does seem to approach truth even to me, and is in my experience incredibly useful. I won't deny that and i hope You understand i am not suggesting You do anything wrong.

Originally Posted by TheSixthSide

If evolution is real and God doesn't exist. Then how come the bible predicts the end of the world? It predicted 9/11 and the Jews returning to their homeland. Before you disbelieve something you should at least take interest in it and find out if it's true or not.

Then I suggest you take interest, do your research and realise that evolution IS real.

I would also like to know exactly how did the bible predict the 9/11, or anything at all for that matter.

Originally Posted by Mocari

Science gets us somewhere but i'm not so sure it has gotten us that far. I can't really measure it. It's certainly been useful, but as far as we know there may have been a different take on truth that would have gotten us much further. There's still infinite room for improvement, we agree on that.

I haven't been talking about right or wrong. But i understand our beliefs on what the right mindset is like, differ.

I'm not aware of being a bad person, and have little direct control over how people view me. I say one thing they hear ten others. I don't know myself as a bad person, but i would if i would ignore my own beliefs. We agree on rather being not known than being known as a bad person.

I dislike ignorance as much as You do. It causes misunderstanding, and harm.
Science isn't me. I would like to know things, but knowing things according to me, does not have to be the same as knowing things according to You, or science. I see more ways to know things than through a scientific approach.

My beliefs have changed plenty of times, it is nothing rigid. Science kept changing because it kept being wrong, alike my beliefs. But science does seem to approach truth even to me, and is in my experience incredibly useful. I won't deny that and i hope You understand i am not suggesting You do anything wrong.

Well, there really are multiple ways to get explanation of things. What I say is that some of the mis rather wrong.

Another thing: science is almost never wrong. It bases on hypothesis, just like anything else. If the hypothesis is real, then the thesis is real.

An example of hypothesis-thesis:
Hypothesis: All women are fat. Jane is a woman.
Thesis: Jane is fat.

That thesis is based on the hypothesis that all women are fat. If that hypothesis proves false, then the thesis proves false. But still, if the hypothesis was true, the thesis would also be true.

If you don't think science has gotten us far, compare the belief of a square earth to the possibility of finding water in other planets by using light. I believe that's pretty much an advancement.

---

To me, prejudicial judgment is pretty much wrong. If you do it consciously, it makes you a bad person. Again, that's my belief, you don't have to agree with that.

What I say is that you defend people who prefer to believe in something convenient, rather than fight ignorance.

---

Finally, I do not yet know of a situation in which science was blatantly wrong. If you mind to point an example, I'd be really glad.

------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Then I suggest you take interest, do your research and realise that evolution IS real.

I would also like to know exactly how did the bible predict the 9/11, or anything at all for that matter.

It's strange how people only predict things AFTER they happen.

That's what sucks about interpretation of the bible. ANYTHING can be interpreted.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

It's strange how people only predict things AFTER they happen.

That's what sucks about interpretation of the bible. ANYTHING can be interpreted.

It wasn't predicted after it happened. The bible has been around a lot longer than 9/11.

and to the guy who told me to take interest in evolution. I have I've been taught it, but don't believe it. The **** if I came from a stupid monkey. And if we came from monkeys shouldn't we still be seeing this happening today? How come it's not happening among us?

Originally Posted by TheSixthSide

if I came from a stupid monkey. And if we came from monkeys...

This is a typical gross misunderstanding of what evolution is. Evolution states that monkeys and humans have a common ancestor... not that humans "came from monkeys."

How come it's not happening among us?

Evolution is happening all the time, and there are many, many examples of evolution happening within a short, observable span of time. Evolution a more grander nature takes millions of years, so to think that you would observe that type is a gross misunderstanding of the nature of time, perception, and lifespan.

Regardless of what brainfunctioning and activity causes this these experiences are as real as any other experience. The fact that certain brainprocesses seem to be synchronised with these experiences doesn't really say a DAMN thing about wether they are Real or not. TO me it's very simple: IF I experience it it is real.

To me it sounds a bit rediculous to experience the most intense, impressive and immersive dreams, Wake up and then conclude that all we just experienced must have been " Not Real". Then what DID I just experience? I can really only conclude that it wasn't of this, waking, reality.

Can you tell me what happens between the brain going into a certain activity and chemistry and the actual experience of a Dream? Where does the brain stop and the Mind begin huh?

There's no scientific proof that the MIND is actually real. There would be nothing in narrowminded science to even start tracing something as abstract as the Mind, yet we all experience consciousness, thoughts, dreams, hallucinations and other such abstract perceptions.

So we know that when we dream/OOBE/Hallucinate there are certain alterations in the functiopning of the brain, but that doesn't explain anything about the experiences they may cause me to have really. It's just a bunch of statistics next to a mystery that is beyond our understanding to understand. Science is just not willing to admit that they cannot understand Reality properly using the limited, narrowminded frame of mind and defenitions of reality they have. They need to open their goddamn minds to the truth, whatever it may be, not exclude possiblities: Who are they? Gods or Reality? They can only speculate Reality, not Define it.

Is it really that hard to admit for these Scientists that "are bent on explaining all of reality for ya" that, allthough we've figured out some brain-activity and processes, we really have no clue of what we experience in such "questionable" states of mind. No proof to put any other theory or belief in question at all.

Still could be just the body but because it feels so real we perseve it as real because how real and extremly vivid it was like. People are ignorant that way.

Originally Posted by TheSixthSide

It wasn't predicted after it happened. The bible has been around a lot longer than 9/11.

Yeah but people only noticed it after the 9/11. Do you really think god is that obsessed with the usa?

and to the guy who told me to take interest in evolution. I have I've been taught it, but don't believe it. The **** if I came from a stupid monkey. And if we came from monkeys shouldn't we still be seeing this happening today? How come it's not happening among us?

There are tons of proof coming from various fields of science: Biogeography, paleontology, comparative anatomy, embryology, cell biology, biochemistry...
Either you didn't do your homework or you just don't want to accept the facts.