if LDing is real then what about. . .

[Needcatscan]

So while reading another person's thread, I found he said something that I have been thinking about for a while. If it wasn't for the fact that I've had LDs before learning about them and what they were, I would have put it up there with all the other things that were not real, IE telekinesis, ghosts, OOBEs, psychics, bigfoot, and so on. My main reasons for not believing in these things is that IF they were in fact real, then wouldn't there be a lot of science behind it and scientists researching it? I mean really, if a person really could read another's mind or if someone really could move objects by will alone, wouldn't that be some big news? Like Phenomenon with John Travolta, he really could do this and there was all kinds of scientists wanting his brain. But unlike Phenomenon, there is no credible evidence for any of these things. That's where LDing comes in: "waking up in your dream? That's called being awake!" would have been something close to a typical response when telling someone about LDing. How can we be AWAKE while ASLEEP? It's a contradiction, yet most of you who are reading this can accomplish just that, as well as myself (kind of makes you feel like a superhero doesn't it?). YET, there is very little research on it, just LaBerge and his team of whatever-nauts, which I'm sure have little standing in the world of scientists. You tell people about your LDs and they look at you like you told them you were abducted by aliens and anal-probed. Point being, if Lucid dreaming is really possible, then what about all the other sketchy things that have little to no research or scientific backing? I've seen youtube videos of people supposedly moving objects with their minds, we've all probably seen bigfoot videos, and hell, there are a crap load of psychics who claim they can tell the future. I've always been a straight up realist, if I can't touch it or experience it then it's BS, so LDing has really got me rethinking things (except religion, I will eternally be agnostic). What do you guys think?

[Chaos Theory]

About Bigfoot? They disproved it. Telekinesis? I'm guessing your talking about the video on youtube about the " Psiwheel " To tell you the truth, I don't even think the Psi-wheel works half the time. Psychic ability from mind reading to Psi-control HAS been indeed tested. It was big news, back then. Ever heard of Uri Gellar? Think of it this way: Paris hilton going to prison is huge " Depressing " news. Do more Research on Psychic development, Like Telekinesis and mind reading and what not. Eventually I bet you will find what your looking for.

[Marvo]

Lucid-dreaming is not to be awake when you sleep, but to be aware when you dream. The difference? I can say, that I'm always aware when I dream, I'm in complete control of my dream-body, I just rarely realise that I'm in a dream. Point being, if you can think you are awake in a dream (which we do most of them time), then can't you also think that you're dreaming? Unlike stuff like telekenisis and all that other stuff, the science and explenations behind lucid dreaming makes perfect sense.

[naikou]

Yes, it's quite fascinating, isn't it? If the general public doesn't know about Lucid Dreaming, what other phenomena could they be missing out on? Like you, I consider myself a realist. Like you, I would have never accepted Lucid Dreaming if I had not personally experienced it. However, learning about Lucid Dreaming has increased my respect for those "fringe groups" who believe in ESP, ghosts, aliens, etc. By no account do I believe them, and I still think that at least 90% of them are completely nonsensical (Murphy's Law), but I don't immediately reject far out views, as I would have before learning about Lucid Dreaming. Then again, perhaps it's a true sign of intellectual maturity to be able to know that supernatural things aren't real, and still wish that they were. With that mindset, you eventually get rewarded with something as interesting as Lucid Dreaming.

[Needcatscan]

Nice reply Naikou. I agree that I also don't look at other groups as being completely crazy anymore (just regular crazy) and that is the conclusion that I have mostly come to with doing the little bit of research I've done on other phenomenas. So I agree that LDing is the gem among the bullshit And I KNOW bigfoot isn't real, thanks, it was an example to press a point

[0bs3n3]

Great post needcatscan. In fact before I even had my first LD (they didn't come naturally to me) I even thought that maybe it was a huge elaborate hoax.

[Needcatscan]

Sadly I think there are other people that feel that way that frequent this board and are still yet to have an LD, I know that's what I would be thinking, which if course shoots the confidence which is a huge part of obtaining lucidity. I remember watching those vids of people moving psi wheels and so I tried it out myself and I just thought, "This is really f***ing stupid, all these people are just lying." That was the main motivation for the post: since we're not full of crap, are they not either? Congrats on your first lucid, hope it was all we've cracked it up to be

[Chaos Theory]

Sadly I think there are other people that feel that way that frequent this board and are still yet to have an LD, I know that's what I would be thinking, which if course shoots the confidence which is a huge part of obtaining lucidity. I remember watching those vids of people moving psi wheels and so I tried it out myself and I just thought, "This is really f***ing stupid, all these people are just lying." That was the main motivation for the post: since we're not full of crap, are they not either? Congrats on your first lucid, hope it was all we've cracked it up to be That's something I can agree with is the Psi-wheel. I used to know quite alot of people that thought the psi-wheel could help them in Telekinesis. By the way, have you looked up the expression " Chi " Yet perhaps? Just curious.

[Leumas13]

I agree to a point, i have certainly felt the difficulty of trying to explain lucid dreaming to others while not sounding like a complete idiot. but on the contrary, there has been research into this. we understand sleep, the stages of it why and what happens how it affects brain functions. we have a greater understanding of the topic of sleep itself than we do say, a 6th sense. lucid dreaming has been tested by more than just LaBerge. in fact studies on false awakenings and sleep paralysis had been examined even before LaBerge. I think that one of the main aspects of Lucidity that make it more of a scientific fact rather than a psychic type phenomenon is that it presents testability and repeatability. LaBerge is well known for what i mean by "tests". As for repeatability, lucidity is something that can be repeated by anyone, with smiler results. sure, everyone reaches it in different ways, but we all experience similer feelings while doing things such as WILDing, HI and the general experience of LDing. telekinesis, telepathy and such are described differently form person to person, with great amounts of variation. So yea...thats my take on the subject

[blahaha]

Comparing lucid dreaming to stuff like telekinesis is like comparing apples to oranges. Dreaming is just an illusion created by your mind... that makes a lot more sense than something like telekinesis or precognition. I didn't believe in TK before and I still don't. Until I can do it or they can show me some proof I'll stay that way.

[ninja9578]

Unlike some of those other things that you mentioned, lucid dreaming actually does have some research and scientific backing behind it. Lucid dreaming is legitimately accepted among psychologists and is even used in therapy. I had a professor who told me so. She's a Ph.D (or M.D, which is a psychologist?) An unlike some other things like telekinesis and ESP, it isn't all that difficult to imagine LDing. The dream is within your own mind and you mind creates awareness. Why couldn't they cross?

[naikou]

I think you guys are missing the point. Sure, there's scientific evidence now, but what about 30 years ago? If you guys had lived back then, you wouldn't have accepted lucid dreaming because the scientific community said it was impossible and because there was no sold proof. And you would have missed out on something wonderful. So would have I. So, the question Needcatscan is proposing is: Could we be missing out on other equally wonderful things because of prejudices in the scientific community and society as a whole? At least, that's my take on it.

[Leumas13]

well naikou, that is a valid point...but during those times, "science" isn't always nessisarally scientific. the sun orbited the earth..but we didn't have any proof. atoms were indivisible because that theory had been around for as long as people could remember. today's scientific community is a more experiment driven community than it was before. so although i understand your point, we are more analytical now. it's not so much prejudice from the scientific community because it doesn't fit in with everything else, so much as is that testing has been done and found little to no evidence.

[Blµb]

Hmm, I never thought about LDing the way I thought about telekinesis etc.... But hey, maybe somewhere out there, there's a forum about telekinesis, with a thread similar to this one? I didn't believe in TK before and I still don't. Until I can do it or they can show me some proof I'll stay that way. Today... it's easy to set those things up, so, what would a proof look like for you? You can only prove it to individuals by coming into their houses moving things around... But, really, who'd care about it THAT much?

[Marvo]

I think you guys are missing the point. Sure, there's scientific evidence now, but what about 30 years ago? If you guys had lived back then, you wouldn't have accepted lucid dreaming because the scientific community said it was impossible and because there was no sold proof. And you would have missed out on something wonderful. So would have I. So, the question Needcatscan is proposing is: Could we be missing out on other equally wonderful things because of prejudices in the scientific community and society as a whole? At least, that's my take on it. Incorrect. I've had several spontanious lucid dreams throughout my life, and they came before I was even aware of lucid dreaming. That's more than enough proof to me. Lucid dreaming makes perfect sense to me, however, telekenisis and all powerfull devine beings do not.

[Hazel]

Incorrect. I've had several spontanious lucid dreams throughout my life, and they came before I was even aware of lucid dreaming. That's more than enough proof to me. Lucid dreaming makes perfect sense to me, however, telekenisis and all powerfull devine beings do not. Same here. I've had lucid dreams before I even knew what they were, so I would have accepted it.

[naikou]

during those times, "science" isn't always nessisarally scientific. the sun orbited the earth..but we didn't have any proof. atoms were indivisible because that theory had been around for as long as people could remember. today's scientific community is a more experiment driven community than it was before. I'm talking about the 1960's and 70's. Not only had we discovered that the earth orbited the sun, but we had traveled to the moon. Not only did we know that atoms were divisible, but we had created nuclear weapons. And yet, Lucid Dreaming was still rejected. @ Marvo and weelilhazel: Yeah, I know, I mentioned that in my first post. But obviously, there are millions/billions of people who have never experienced LD'ing (or don't remember doing so), and because of that they refuse to believe in Lucid Dreaming, even with concrete scientific evidence. So yeah, people like us are the lucky ones, in that regard. But it's possible that we have not experienced some other phenomena, and I think it would be unwise to completely reject all phenomena that we haven't experienced. I'm not saying that I believe in ESP, aliens, time travelers, and so forth; I'm just suggesting that there could be things science has passed by - like lucid dreaming was - and is waiting to be discovered.

[pippo90]

I dont understand what you mean by NOT real??? How is lucid dreaming NOT real if there are thousands of people doing it? Of course its all in your mind but thats exactly what it is. We artn saying its actually happning in real life (i dont think at least) so I guess you could say its not real in the physical sense. But it is REAL since you have to train your body. How does this sound if someone were to come up and tell you it. "O ya BOB I just had a really nice lucid dream last night! But Gooly g wiz those lucid dreams arnt real. But I just had one, let me tell you it was great. But not real of course" But ya, maybe im just confused on what you mean?

[Marvo]

Many words... I don't think lucid dreaming ever was rejected. Too few just knew about it. None of my friends, or people I've been talking to have rejected it, or said that I'm making up all the stuff. They just don't find it interesting, since "it's just dreams".

[Needcatscan]

I don't think lucid dreaming ever was rejected. Too few just knew about it. None of my friends, or people I've been talking to have rejected it, or said that I'm making up all the stuff. They just don't find it interesting, since "it's just dreams". If they only knew. . . I tried telling one of my coworkers yesterday. . . "Have you ever woken up in a dream before? Become completely aware that you were dreaming and it feeling almost like reality?" Lee: "Oh yeah! Like a couple months ago I dreamed Connie (our boss) was really mad at me and I thought it was so real that I asked her if she was upset with me when I came into work" That's where I just shook my head and gave up. And I agree with scientists knowing a lot about sleep and the REM stage and so on, so I guess LDing isn't quite on the same level as the other paranormal things. I still wish I could move things with my mind though.

[Chaos Theory]

I still wish I could move things with my mind though. There is a site that lists alot of useful techniques, just not that Damn Psi-wheel. These guys have been open since 2000. http://psipog.net/home.html They also have a media section. Psychokinesis Varies on the person though, it's like Lucid dreaming. Some people can do it the first time they try, others it takes a while.

[Needcatscan]

I've been there, do you really think they are for real though? Wouldn't it be some kind of breakthrough to actually be able to move things with your mind? That's what has me unbelieving. Penn & Teller have a show called Bullsh!t where they did a whole show on this stuff and there is a guy who will pay the first person to show that they can do telekinesis a million bucks. So far no takers.

[horsebucket]

My main reasons for not believing in these things is that IF they were in fact real, then wouldn't there be a lot of science behind it and scientists researching it? Thats always the first thing that comes to mind but what if science isn't ready to get into non locality because it will turn half of modern science upside down. Just like the physicists back in the day couldn't accept the world was round because they would have had to change all their scientific theories. Maybe the people who can do these tricks take advantage of the fact that the worlds ignorant and uses it to their advantage. For example lets nobody believed that people could hack into computers because the computer manufacturers said it was impossible. If you were a hacker would you go around telling people that you were able to do it or would you take advantage of peoples ignorant and keep on hacking without having to worry about being detected because most people don't even believe it's possible? I think alot of this psychic shit really is happening all the time only it's way too subtle for the average person to notice. I think hackings a good example because you could have somebody hacking your computer your whole life and never realize until you learn about hacking and computer security yourself. Real hackers wont leave any trace and do their best to go unnoticed. Of course theres the people just doing it for the fun and fuck around with your computer so you will notice. If psychic abilities were real you'd think thered be some people fucking around with them for the fun too.

[naikou]

Marvo... either you have some really open minded people where you live, or you're really good at communicating. The few people I've attempted to tell about lucid dreaming have thought I was totally insane. Or maybe it's just that Europe > U.S.?

[mini0991]

To be honest, I never really saw what was so unbelievable about lucid dreaming. I just did it and it worked.