Thread: How does language differ in lucid dreams?

My language ability differs from dream to dream. Mostly it is normal. I frequently have dreams where I am trying to speak and I can't though.

Language isnt the basis of thought. Images with associated feelings are. Language encodes the thought into words. You can talk in your dream, making perfect sense to yourself, but using random words to encode your thoughts. But you already see and feel the thought, so wheter the words are random or not, you still know what you are thinking. People overhearing you while asleep won't always know what you are talking about because sometimes the word stream is random, but you do know. so this does imply that our thinking isn't based on language at all.

Anyway, when I'm sleeping, people can't understand anything I say! But.. some people do talk understandable in their dreams, sometimes you can follow a part of their dream that way by listening what they are talking about ^^

Sometimes we speak telepathicly in my dreams. But mostly I talk the same way I think. Which doesnt make sense to others, but makes perfect sense to me.

Great questions to consider there.

In dreams, my language can be impaired. It usually is. I don't talk much in dreams. I have been learning French for quite a few years, and am far from fluent. I've had dreams where I speak completely fluent in them. I thought that was pretty weird, but I guess our subconscious is amazing.

It really is, My german teacher taught me so much, and I barely remember any of it. but when I listen to german speakers, I can understand them

I'm a bit strange when it comes to language in my dreams. My mother tongue is Norwegian, but I tend to have dreams also in English. It depends on the dream. Also, when I do speak English in my dreams, my pronunciation is completely fluent, even though I have a Norwegian accent when I speak English in real life. Also, I learned French for a few years in high school, but I never got very good at it. I hardly remember anything at all anymore, however, in (lucid) dreams, I will remember quite a lot of what I learned.

1: I find it similar to real life. But text might be incoherent and it will easily change, even though the reading itself is easy.

2: The melody.

3: The same as in waking life.

4: The same as in waking life.

5: Much worse than in waking life. I also have a shorter attention span in (lucid) dreams, especially the first ones I have during the night.

The last questions: I do notice even in the dream if something is different than usual when it comes to the questions above. I easily pick up on things out of the ordinary especially when it relates to myself. I do have dream skills that I have developed through lucid dreams, so that would be a yes. I don't remember enough non lucid dreams to answer your last question.

I hope this helps, feel free to ask if you have any questions regarding my answers.

Originally Posted by nothin7

1. Do you find speaking, reading, or writing more difficult? How about understanding?

I don't notice any difference in my ability to speak. I've only attempted to write one time while lucid, and it was the same as in waking life (although I don't remember where I got the pen and paper from, lol). Reading is a bit more complex. The one time that I tried to read fine text (a book) while lucid, the lines were moving around the page and overlapping each other. It was difficult to focus on, let alone read. On the other hand, just the other day I had a lucid where I was reading large restaurant signs in a mall. While the text itself was stable, the names didn't make much sense. I can't recall any of the exact names, but I remember they sounded vaguely foreign, although I couldn't put my finger on the origin.

Originally Posted by nothin7

2. When you hear a song, which is more salient: the words or its melody?

Music is not common in my dreams, which is ironic since I consider it an important part of my waking life. However, when I do hear music in dreams it tends to be instrumental (usually it's me playing it on guitar or piano), so that would be the melody.

Originally Posted by nothin7

3. Syntax: Is your grammar different? Are words in order?

Dream memories being as fleeting as they are, I tend to recall the "gist" of what I say while lucid more than the actual words. However, in the few instances where I can recall the actual words that I spoke, I haven't noticed anything significantly different from the way I would speak in waking life.

Originally Posted by nothin7

4. Semantics: Is your vocabulary different? What is the relationship between words and meaning? Do you find one without the other?

Same as #3.

Originally Posted by nothin7

5. Abstract thought: How are your logical and mathematical reasoning abilities? Are sequential thoughts (or actions) more difficult?

While my logic and reasoning ability is better while lucid than it is during a non-lucid dream, it is still significantly worse than in waking life. I tend to have a very short attention span. I also tend to have great difficulty retrieving certain memories; for example, I can almost never remember the Task of the Month, and I may or may not notice that my house in the lucid dream has a different layout than my house in waking life.

Originally Posted by nothin7

For all questions, do you fail to notice irregularities until you awaken?

As I mentioned above, I may or may not notice irregularities while dreaming. Sometimes thoughts or actions that made perfect sense while lucid might seem just silly once I awaken. Other times my lucid thoughts and action are fairly congruent with my waking self.

Originally Posted by nothin7

Do certain things became easier with practice?

There is a general trend for things to get easier with practice (flying, changing dream scene, etc). However, even after 2.5 years of practice it can tend to be a little unpredictable. Just 3 days ago I had a lucid where I temporarily lost my ability to fly! Sometimes when I try to run through a wall to a new dream scene, I just smack into the wall (maybe 30-40% of the time). There is one thing, however, which has never changed no matter how many times I try: having sex while lucid will inevitably cause me to wake up within 10-15 seconds.

Originally Posted by nothin7

Finally, do you find differences between lucid and nonlucid dreams?

Many. While my nonlucids tend to be fast-paced and/or emotionally charged, the instant I become lucid the whole pace of the dream seems to slow down. Most notably, DCs become passive, especially if I announce that I'm dreaming (I've learned to keep my lucidity a "secret" from DCs ). If there is any sort of conflict in my lucid dreams, it is usually either initiated by me or a continuation of some conflict that was present before I became lucid. (Sometimes both, as when I decide to get revenge on a certain DC after becoming lucid.)

Wow, fantastic, this is very informative. You guys are all gonna be in print soon! In general, I'd love more specific examples of the phenomena you're describing. It's one thing to quote somebody saying "things that made sense in the dream don't anymore when I wake up", but it's so much more powerful if I can quote a dream report as proof: "I heard/spoke/wrote/read a sentence that said xyz, and I understood it as yzx, but when I woke up I realized it really meant zxy."

Delphinus, can you elaborate on your telepathic speech? How do you know it has occurred if, as I'm assuming, no sounds are produced?

Luminous, what specifically about text is incoherent? Can you share any examples? Also, I'd love to hear more about what you meant in your answer to question 5 as "Much worse than in waking life".

A few of you mention that you are able to produce/understand fluent speech in a language with which you are not entirely familiar. Can you describe these experiences in more detail? How do you know you're saying or understanding the correct words?

Another couple of you mention that you have short attention span while lucid. Can you remember any concrete examples that demonstrate this?

1: For the first part, I would say nearly identical to the waking experience (unless I am lucid). For the second, I often find that I understand things pretty easily, even moreso than when I am awake.

2: Really not sure.

3: It varies. I would say usually it is the same as the real world, but I have also had it the other way, where everything was just a mess.

4: I would say my vocabulary is pretty much the same. I have found cases where I use words that I would not normally use. It varies from dream to dream. Meaning seems to be the same, most the time at least.

5: Really not sure. Logic in regular dreams is fleeting I would say. I can have a pretty decent flow of abstract thought, but my dreams tend to be nonsense, as well as my thoughts.

As for speaking fluent languages, I too wonder if people are sure that the language being spoken is even correct. I know that to some degree it is possible though. When I was learning spanish, I had a dream where this friend was speaking it perfectly. Even in the dream I couldn't keep up. I checked the fragments that I remembered and he seemed to be correct. Furthermore, he used words I was not familiar with at the time. My guess is, I came across some words and it entered my dreams subliminally.

I'm not quite as articulate in my lucid dreams as I am in real life, although I still find it easy to talk.

Originally Posted by nothin7

Another couple of you mention that you have short attention span while lucid. Can you remember any concrete examples that demonstrate this?

Here's an excerpt from my dream journal. It's one of my very first lucid dreams. This actually describes two of the phenomena I described, namely reading fine text and a diminished attention span.

10/26/05
I see a light switch on the wall. Bingo, that's a good test; I remember the thread going on at Dream Views about controlling light levels in dreams. I walk up to it and flick it to turn out the lights- nothing happens. I decide, however, that it wasn't really a fair test, because I'm in a totally unfamiliar place, and I can't really visualize exactly how flicking the light switch would affect the room. I don't even know which lights the switch controls. I decide to repeat the test in a more familar location. The first place that comes to mind is my room at my Mom's house. I decide I'll teleport there by dream spinning. I focus on the location and start spinning.

When I stop spinning, I'm right where I wanted to be. I look around... my room is just the same as it should be, nothing that I can notice is out of place. Unfortunately, I get distracted from my light switch task when I notice my alarm clock sitting on my dresser; the numbers are scrambling and shifting EXACTLY like in the movie "Waking Life." I let out a small laugh; it really does look exactly like the movie, they really nailed it. I decide to find some small text to read. I take a book from my book shelf, open it and lay it on my desk. The lines are moving around the page, overlapping each other and changing. It's hard to focus on. I look around for something else to try out... at this point I've completely forgotten about the light switch thing.

Here's another excerpt which illustrates faulty logic (believing that a DC was an actual, dreaming person) and me being unable to remember my personal lucid tasks.

7/30/06
The first memories I can recall are in my old middle school. I'm already lucid. However, I think it was a low level lucidity, because I had a sort of "dream companion" with me, and while I was lucid enough to realize that I was in a dream, I apparently wasn't lucid enough to realize that the dream character (who was named Rick, a guy who I met in middle school, incidentally, but who I never really liked) wasn't a real person. For some reason I thought that he was lucidly dreaming with me, and that we were "sharing" the dream. Anyway, parts of the school that I'm in are like the actual middle school in waking life, while other parts are totally made up. It's very crowded, as if it's between classes. We are walking through the crowds, not really doing much, just talking and checking stuff out, being lucid. We arrive at this commons area. I'm trying to remember my lucid tasks, but once again, I can't for some reason. The closest I can come is that I faintly remember that one of my tasks was to visit a specific location, but I can't remember what location that is. I bring up the idea of teleporting to some distant location to Rick, and ask him for ideas where we should go. "Let's go to the Bahamas," suggests Rick. That sounds like a pretty good idea to me, so I agree to it.

And finally, here is an excerpt which illustrates the tendency for my DCs to become passive once I become lucid, essentially just props.

8/04/06
When I step outside, I notice that my house is now directly across the street. I am baffled- I distinctly remembered their house being 4 doors down the street from mine. It occurs to me that this could be a dream, and I should probably do a reality check. I pinch my nose and breathe- it works. I am dreaming. I marvel at how real it all seems. I turn around and look at the mother and father and say, "This is a dream." They don't even flinch. Instead they turn around and calmly walk back into the house without closing the door. I step back inside and follow them into the living room. I address the group (which for some reason now includes a midget guy), "What would you say if I told you that this is a dream right now?"
Nobody responds, or even seems to care. "I'm serious," I say. Still nothing. I look at the midget and say, "Hey, you. Does this feel like a dream right now or real life?"
"Real life."
"Okay, well, check this out." I stretch my hand towards him and focus on lifting him into the air telekinetically. He rises up about 10 feet in the air, where he grabs the top of the entertainment center against the wall and pulls himself to it. I stop lifting him, so he's now on top of the entertainment center. The only reaction I get from him is a look of annoyance. Nobody else seems impressed either.

I realized that in all of my lucid dreams, I've only said about one or two lines combined...

Only one or two lines NightLife? That's exactly the kind of data I'm looking for. In how many lucid dreams and combined hours of dreaming?

Thanks for the dream reports, DuB. That's more like it. Seems like it's a common theme for dream characters to become passive upon lucidity. Not related to language, but fascinating nonetheless. Any ideas why this happens?

Originally Posted by nothin7

Any ideas why this happens?

Well, it's important to note that it's not a completely consistent effect. For example, later in the dream that the first excerpt is from, I had a pretty fascinating conversation with a couple DCs about what it's like to be a dream character. (They said that it's not so bad, in case you were wondering . They also tried to convince me that my dream world is a consistent and complex place which is always present inside my head, even while I'm awake. I was understandably skeptical, but it was a fascinating conversation nonetheless.)

Anyway, we may be able to explain the passive behavior of DCs by considering it from the schema perspective. Most of us lucid dreamers regard dream characters as "fake" people - mere figments of our imaginations with no sort of intelligence of their own. We use them for sex or destroy them on a whim, if we decide to pay attention to them at all. In a way, we tend to regard them as props, accessories to the dream. These beliefs shape our dream character schemata. Since it's widely thought that much of dream content is driven by our various schemata, this causes the DCs to act passive and/or submissive. And the more often we observe our DCs acting in this passive manner, the more it reinforces that aspect of our DC schemata, making them even more likely to act that way... but only once we become lucid! After all, before we become lucid we regard the DCs as people - complex, dynamic beings with intelligence and agendas - and as such their behavior is driven by our "person" schemata.

This is all theory, of course, but it sounds plausible.

Originally Posted by nothin7

Only one or two lines NightLife? That's exactly the kind of data I'm looking for. In how many lucid dreams and combined hours of dreaming?

Thanks for the dream reports, DuB. That's more like it. Seems like it's a common theme for dream characters to become passive upon lucidity. Not related to language, but fascinating nonetheless. Any ideas why this happens?

I've had around 35 lucid dreams but they don't last long... I'm sorry, I'm not sure how many hours that would add up to but it probably wouldn't be too long...

The one time that I heard a song in a dream, I could only here the melody...

I rarely talk in dreams, usually I'm running away from something or fighting something.
When I do talk though It's pretty normal, except my jokes are a lot funnier in my dreams.

Originally Posted by nothin7

Luminous, what specifically about text is incoherent? Can you share any examples? Also, I'd love to hear more about what you meant in your answer to question 5 as "Much worse than in waking life".

A few of you mention that you are able to produce/understand fluent speech in a language with which you are not entirely familiar. Can you describe these experiences in more detail? How do you know you're saying or understanding the correct words?

Another couple of you mention that you have short attention span while lucid. Can you remember any concrete examples that demonstrate this?

When I try to read longer lines of text, it won't always make much sense, or it looks like it was written by a 7 year old who can spell. An example would be a dream I had recently where I was reading a magazine. I was reading an article about a female celebrity, and the text looked like random words put together, however still relating to the topic. I was not lucid at this point, but the incoherent and weird text made me lucid. I looked away and back at the magazine, and the text had changed. The topic was still the same.

French in dreams: I don't remember any specific lucid dreams where I have spoken French, but they have typically been lucid dreams where I had either had a short conversation in French, or listened to someone speaking in French. I'm pretty sure it has been far from flawless in all cases, but even after waking up from these lucid dreams, I know that the words and sentences that I understood, were correct.

Speaking English in dreams: My oral English is pretty good, I have picked up a slight American accent. However, when I speak English in a lucid dream, my accent can be flawless. I'm assuming that this is because it's not my real mouth that is pronouncing the words, and my voice in my dream comes from my mind rather than my vocal cords.

Attention span in lucid dreams: Even in waking life, I don't have a very long attention span, but it doesn't affect me much. However, in lucid dreams, it seems to be even worse. My best example is from a lucid dream I had recently, actually the same one where I was reading the magazine. One I had become lucid, and looked a the text for some moments, I remembered that I had a set task that I wanted to do in a lucid dream, and I threw the magazine away to find a good place to do it. On my way out, I was distracted by sleeping dream characters and a tiny horse. After a while, I overcame this distraction, and left the building I was in, reminding myself to do the task. Once outside, I saw that I was on the top of a tall cliff. This distracted me once more. I threw myself off the cliff, and started flying. After flying for a while, I had to remind myself to do the task for the third time, and this time I managed to do so, and woke up shortly after. I'm estimating that it took me around 10 minutes from when I decided to do the task, to when I actually did it.

Thanks guys!

Originally Posted by DuB

They also tried to convince me that my dream world is a consistent and complex place which is always present inside my head, even while I'm awake.

DuB, That doesn't seem so crazy to me, considering that dreams are, in fact, all in your head. It just takes a little transition to sleeping to access it, but I wouldn't be surprised if someday we learn to control our consciousness to get there directly.

Originally Posted by NightLife

The one time that I heard a song in a dream, I could only here the melody...

NightLife, do you have a full dream report for this experience, so I can quote it?

Originally Posted by Luminous

or it looks like it was written by a 7 year old who can spell

Luminous, you meant to say can and not can't, right? Is it typically that way--finding letters in order but words not?

My syntax and semantics sometimes follow grammar patterns of other languages. Sometimes I dream in Japanese, other times Spanish. Languages that I vaguely hear on tv and in the community will also tend to express themselves. The really remarkable thing is that I understand what I am saying even though I may not completely know the language. I suppose it is the language of the mind that one comprehends most.

I hardly ever remember what is said in a dream, but I am aware of the fact that I'm speaking and how I and other DCs speak.

1. Do you find speaking, reading, or writing more difficult? How about understanding?

As far as speaking, not at all. The only problem I have trouble speaking or understanding a DC is if it involves a foreign language (Russian or Spanish). Reading and writing are relatively easy, but the text tends to change.

2. When you hear a song, which is more salient: the words or its melody?

I rarely hear songs in my dreams. The only times I have are when a song is playing on the radio in real life or something similar, and yes, it's all clear.

3. Syntax: Is your grammar different? Are words in order?

There is no difference between waking life/dream.

4. Semantics: Is your vocabulary different? What is the relationship between words and meaning? Do you find one without the other?

Nope. I actually hardly ever remember what I say or a DC says. It's just not something I pay attention to. Even if they say something, it's possible that they mean something else, and I pick up more on the meaning than on the words.

5. Abstract thought: How are your logical and mathematical reasoning abilities? Are sequential thoughts (or actions) more difficult?

Everything is "sequential," but the order doesn't necessarily make sense. There's just a progression from one thing to the next. As far as "logical abilities," I've never noticed. I never seem to do math much in my dreams. If there was a simple problem, I'd probably answer it correctly, but with more complex problems, judging from other dream experiences, I'd probably make something up and assume it was right.

Regarding 1-5 above:
-Do you fail to notice irregularities until you awaken?

Absolutely.

-Do certain language abilities became easier with practice?

In real life, yes. In dreams, I sometimes understand what's going on, but usually don't. I became lucid once, actually, as a result of realizing that I had just made up a word and passed it off as Russian. I don't do that in real life. But usually, whether it would be accurate or not, I haven't understood speakers of foreign languages in my dreams... yet.

-Do you find language differences between lucid and nonlucid dreams?

No.

Hey Amethyst Star,

Thank you for the detailed reply. I'm now curious about a couple of the things you said:

Originally Posted by Amethyst Star

4. Semantics: Is your vocabulary different? What is the relationship between words and meaning? Do you find one without the other?

Nope. I actually hardly ever remember what I say or a DC says. It's just not something I pay attention to. Even if they say something, it's possible that they mean something else, and I pick up more on the meaning than on the words.

You don't "pay attention" to DC speech, but you're still getting meaning--can you explain this? What role, if any, do words play? Would it be difficult to focus on remembering the exact phrase someone said?

Originally Posted by Amethyst Star

Regarding 1-5 above:
-Do you fail to notice irregularities until you awaken?

Absolutely.

Any striking examples of this? (The more detail, the better.)

1. Do you find speaking, reading, or writing more difficult? How about understanding?

my speaking sounds like it's traversing a mile underwater. tho i haven't attempted it to many times. along that line, i slapped on my leg to see if my senses were active. i felt it softly, but the sound came delayed and muffled. understanding depends on how lucid i am, and that depends on how much effort i put forth while lucid to stay conscience. it's like i'm always sloping back into sleep. reading i've both experience perfect unmoving sentences, and ones that shift and change.

2. When you hear a song, which is more salient: the words or its melody?

i dunno. most my music is just melody. one time i dreamed up a very complex piece of music and was dissapointed when i tried to re-create it but felt it drifting away.

3. Syntax: Is your grammar different? Are words in order?

i can think very clearly. with an inner voice i can talk to myself clearly with correct grammar, just like waking life.

4. Semantics: Is your vocabulary different? What is the relationship between words and meaning? Do you find one without the other?

no. there is a normal relationship.

5. Abstract thought: How are your logical and mathematical reasoning abilities? Are sequential thoughts (or actions) more difficult?

fairly normal. one time i built a computer program durring a morning REM. when i woke up i remembered it, typed it up, and it compiled correctly the first time. it was something i'd been obsessively thinking about the day before, because it was difficult to do.

Regarding 1-5 above:
-Do you fail to notice irregularities until you awaken? sometimes yes.
-Do certain language abilities became easier with practice? sure.
-Do you find language differences between lucid and nonlucid dreams? not too much.

Please share any thoughts you have on this topic. It will be interesting to see if there are any common themes. Also, I may be quoting you in my thesis, so let me know if you'd rather I didn't. Thanks!

good questions. i'm interested in developing and pushing the limits of lucid dreaming, not just flying at the speed of light. a goal i have is asking the subconscience to write something to me, perhaps on a certain topic.

Originally Posted by mrToad

5. Abstract thought: How are your logical and mathematical reasoning abilities? Are sequential thoughts (or actions) more difficult?

fairly normal. one time i built a computer program durring a morning REM. when i woke up i remembered it, typed it up, and it compiled correctly the first time. it was something i'd been obsessively thinking about the day before, because it was difficult to do.

mrToad, that's incredible you're able to create something so complex in a lucid dream! Can you tell me more about this? What specifically about the code do you remember? Could you perform complex calculations or engage in problem solving? When you woke up, were you literally typing 100% from memory?

Originally Posted by mrToad

good questions. i'm interested in developing and pushing the limits of lucid dreaming, not just flying at the speed of light. a goal i have is asking the subconscience to write something to me, perhaps on a certain topic.

This is exactly what I want to spend my life studying. I'd love to hear any theories you have so far. From what I gather so far, I would guess that your goal is something that would be extremely difficult to achieve, because of it relies heavily on language generation. I look forward to tossing around ideas with you.

it was some part of an adventure game i've been writing for years. before i was married i did my best to keep a simple outer life so i had time to focus on personal projects and ideas. with an internet business i had a lot of time at home. if you live eat and breathe only one or two ideas at a time, and you have the time and space to do so without distraction, it is amazing what your mind can do. i believe that it can become increasingly engaged to the point that you dream about it clearly.

in this particular project quite a few years back i think i was trying to build a scripting engine. i'd worked fairly late and slept in the next morning. durring the morning i started to visualize the code. i knew what the goal was, it wasn't hazy. it actually didn't take long to solve the problem. the whole dream was maybe half hour, i don't know. i woke up feeling like, "i know exactly what i need to do." i jumped over to the computer.

i don't think i saw the code word-for-word durring the dream, or at least i don't remember it. i visualized it in a sort of generalized way, i perceived a sort of method that i'd never thought of, and it was clear exactly what i should do. sort of like when in conversation we want to share an idea with someone. the putting that idea into language and speaking is the second part, and it comes naturally. the idea to begin with is less tangible before that point--it's something we just feel. i felt the code and method exactly, tho it was something very difficult for me the previous day or days. i typed it up, checked it over, compiled and ran it, and bingo. it worked beautifully.

it's obvious the brain can be a problem-solver especially when it's been rested and isn't distracted. so REM sleep (i figure this stage) is the best time to problem-solve. it happened without much effort. my subconscious just fed it to me without me asking. i wanted to know the answer badly, i put forth a lot of effort, and the next morning my subconsious just gave it to me.

sure, i'd like to share ideas. maybe it will help motivate me. at the time i've fallen away from the dreamworld. it comes and goes without my notice each night. at one time i was lucid dreaming almost every early morning. i think i need to continue with my dream journal, to start paying attention again.