Lucid Dreaming Controversy

[O'nus]

There is a lot of controversy over the possibility of lucid dreaming and its benefits. Or, how you define a lucid dream. Some assert that lucid dreaming is in fact impossible and that you only dream of lucid dreams. Thus, you are not having authentic lucid dreams but dreaming of luicd dreaming. To this I say, you are still lucid dreaming. Whichever the context is, you are still in some kind of control of these lucid dreams. You may not do what you originally intended to before falling asleep, but you are still under the impression, or are, in control of your dreams. Also, some assert that lucid dreaming is actually adverse to psychological development. They purport that you must face your issues and conflicts without any delusion, cheating, or inauthentic methods. I would not call lucid dreaming cheating or inauthentic as it teaches the individual how to control their dreams, their fears, and give them an overall sense of higher self-confidence as they now have much more control in their mind. With the results I have seen with lucid dreamers, I have yet to see one have substitute psychological issues or have none resolved. In fact, I attribute most of my rise out of depression to lucid dreams (the rest I attribute to my precious Ruby). Either way, the lucid dreaming opposers assert that lucid dreaming is fake and encourge a pejorative connotation to lucidity. However, this is not like "the Matrix" - is there any consequences of a "fake" lucid dream? Is this to say that non-lucid dreams are more beneficial? Lucid dreaming skeptics usually make the effort to simply postulate that authentic dreaming is simply not real. They may agree to all of the above but still argue - lucidity is still not authentic. What do you think..? ~

[DrTechnical]

I don't think the phenomenon of LDing is controvertial at all. Laberge came up with a clever experiment. Leveraging the fact that eye position in a dream is identical to that of your physical eyes, they came up with a series of eye motions the dreamer would convey to lab techs if in fact the dreamer became lucid. The dreamer was wired to an EEG to monitor for REM. Sure enough, during a monitored REM state, the dreamer was able to communicate the pre-determined sequence of eye motions to the awake observer. I think that's pretty clear evidence.

[Bonsay]

I agree with your opinions on skepticism, although I must say that I haven't really seen any "real" skeptics besides the ones on the Skeptic dictionary (or whatever it's called), which only explained their point of view with the usual dreaming about LDing argument. So first I'd like to see some more skeptics and their opinions, so I could actually have a good discussion about the truth of LDing with them. But I guess you are right with your ending statement, that people don't really care about dreams... if that was what you wanted to say.

[Jdeadevil]

I think that's a good chunk of text, did you type that or copy it? Whatever you did, it gives me the idea that lucid dreaming is some kind of extreme cure for the mind. And I do have these thoughts of self-confidence, I mean, if you could imagine yourself doing somethng over and over, it woudn't be real, hence you can keep pressing the restart button, which is one of it's cures, the fact you can keep pressing the restart button or go to level select and then choose your fighter... Sorry, I mean, it's kind of like a training mode in a video game, you can practice untill you are comfortable with that part of life. I mean, I read somewhere that someone jumped over the bar table and spat bear at the guy behind the bar, and then he ran off going "You're crazy man", so yeah, training mode. The people who don't believe in it, I could see why, it seems impossible that you could basically 'Aeon Flux' your way into success in life, in that way I mean (if you've seen it) some guy kissing the main character, secretly giving her a special pill or object of some sort, which goes into her brain and then she recieves a mission of some sort. Yes I know it isn't anything to do with lucidity but that's kind of how clear people tell you it is when all the reader can do is look at the monitor with their jaw dropped and think "That's amazing", I mean, I'v never done it myself so for all I know, it could be fake. But I don't actually think it's fake, I think it just takes more than normal practice, I know I'll do it and that's what I believe. That was to O'nus, by the way, just incase....

[O'nus]

I don't think the phenomenon of LDing is controvertial at all. Laberge came up with a clever experiment. Leveraging the fact that eye position in a dream is identical to that of your physical eyes, they came up with a series of eye motions the dreamer would convey to lab techs if in fact the dreamer became lucid. The dreamer was wired to an EEG to monitor for REM. Sure enough, during a monitored REM state, the dreamer was able to communicate the pre-determined sequence of eye motions to the awake observer. I think that's pretty clear evidence. Here is the study you are referring to: http://ft.csa.com/ids70/resolver.php..._2_88&mode=pdf This study is subject to one very pertinent objection: - The verification of lucidity could be easily attested to conditional reflexes. That is what is typically purported against lucidity. Unfortunately, it becomes complex and nearly impossible to argue or prove. Science does have limits and we cannot share consciousness. However, if we accept this as a conscious verification, as opposed to reflexive, then there really is no controversy. Edit: I should add that this verification still does not prove the authenticity of potential "lucid actions" that can take place within dreams. This is what I am referring to when I say we cannot share consciousness - we cannot prove that other actions in my dream environment are truly lucid or just dreams of lucidity. ~

[Bonsay]

Edit: I should add that this verification still does not prove the authenticity of potential "lucid actions" that can take place within dreams. This is what I am referring to when I say we cannot share consciousness - we cannot prove that other actions in my dream environment are truly lucid or just dreams of lucidity. ~ I still don't understand the logic behind "dreaming of lucidity", it is illogical. How can you dream about being aware in a dream. Even if somehow you dreamt that, it would still be a normal LD in the end. You can dream about control, but that's not lucid dreaming. Anyone want to explain the reasoning behind this claim, to me?

[O'nus]

I still don't understand the logic behind "dreaming of lucidity", it is illogical. How can you dream about being aware in a dream. Even if somehow you dreamt that, it would still be a normal LD in the end. You can dream about control, but that's not lucid dreaming. Anyone want to explain the reasoning behind this claim, to me? Allow me to demonstrate: I had a dream the other night that I was lucid and did X activity. Or, before going to sleep, I intend to have a lucid dream and do X action. However, when I dream, I dream about a lucid dream and do Y action. Do you see what I mean..? It is fully possible to dream about lucid dreams. However, this does not necessarily mean that true lucid dreams are impossible. It is simply asserting that you can dream of being in a luicd dream. ~

[Bonsay]

If you do thing Y, does it really mean that you weren't aware? I do Y things all the time. Every LD I've had was an Y thing. I never do what I wanted to do the day before. I definitely am a different person in a LD, but I'm still lucid. Perhaps this is the question, how close is lucid awareness to a waking one? In that case it's all relative. Ok, I guess it could be possible to dream about lucid dreaming, meaning that in the dream you had no awareness. But that means it wasn't a lucid but a normal dream. The only way I see possible is some partial awareness, like day-dreaming about LDing through the dream itself. You would actually be dreaming it, but wouldn't be aware of the dream. I still don't see it any other way than the one I mentioned before. Bah, I hope you understand what I'm thinking about .

[O'nus]

If you do thing Y, does it really mean that you weren't aware? I do Y things all the time. Every LD I've had was an Y thing. I never do what I wanted to do the day before. I definitely am a different person in a LD, but I'm still lucid. Perhaps this is the question, how close is lucid awareness to a waking one? In that case it's all relative. Ok, I guess it could be possible to dream about lucid dreaming, meaning that in the dream you had no awareness. But that means it wasn't a lucid but a normal dream. The only way I see possible is some partial awareness, like day-dreaming about LDing through the dream itself. You would actually be dreaming it, but wouldn't be aware of the dream. I still don't see it any other way than the one I mentioned before. Bah, I hope you understand what I'm thinking about . Yes, partial-lucidity is quite frequent. However, is it not possible to have a dream (a normal dream) about having a lucid dream? Considering these paradoxical implications is the grounds for the lucid dreaming controversy. ~

[Jeff777]

If dreams are the language of the soul, then lucid dreams must be a fantastic conversation with it.

[Jamal]

Interesting...

[skysaw]

Stuff and nonsense.

[Caradon]

Well, I've had many Lucid Dreams so I know for a fact they are real. Lucid just means you know you are dreaming. If you know your dreaming, you know your dreaming! How can that be fake? Unless you know your dreaming but really awake LOL. Anyway, my own experience is all the proof I need. If you really doubt, next time your fully Lucid in a dream. Think about this thread and decide the truth of it while you are in the dream!

[skysaw]

I think the completion of the monthly tasks is proof enough that it's happening.

[Caradon]

I think the completion of the monthly tasks is proof enough that it's happening. Yeah, I was thinking about that as well.

[O'nus]

I think the completion of the monthly tasks is proof enough that it's happening. I think you guys are missing the objection. Is it not possible that you are dreaming, as in having normal dreams, of these lucid dream tasks? Also, is it not possible that some people are liars? I am not an advocate of the controversy (obviously) but I do like to consider all cogent skepticism. ~

[innerspacecadet]

I don't think the distinction between lucid dreaming and dreaming about lucid dreaming is an important one. In either case you have some sense that you're dreaming and can act out of the bounds of ordinary dreams (well, to differing degrees depending on how lucid you are - my last lucid dream, I did hardly any dream control, apart from the reality check via fighting with a dream character to confirm I was dreaming). You can't dispute the existence of an experience of knowing you're dreaming at some level any more than you can dispute the existence of an inner experience of what the color blue looks like. Neither can be proven from outside. In my experience, though, I've never been able to attain a level of awareness that quite matches what I'd expect if my mind were awake. Even my more lucid lucids are mostly run by the subconscious, and I'm likely to assume I have certain limits that I don't necessarily have.

[skysaw]

I think you guys are missing the objection. Is it not possible that you are dreaming, as in having normal dreams, of these lucid dream tasks? I maintain that there is no difference. All a dream consists of is thoughts. Therefore to say that you are "only dreaming" of a thought is redundant. Also, is it not possible that some people are liars? It also does not matter if only some of the people are liars. At least I know I can do it, and that's good enough for me. For anyone else, LaBerges studies should be sufficient.

[Captain Sleepalot]

To use their line of logic could mean we could say that while awake we are dreaming about being awake and conscious, but really everything is automatic and response-based. But anyway, the benefits that I can see from lucid dreaming are: 1. Practice facing your fears in a dream, where you are free from worry of actually being hurt. This can help you to gain the confidence to take on this fear in the real world (say, a fear of clowns). 2. Strengthening your reasoning faculties and honing your critical thinking skills. These are both required for a person to fully experience a lucid dream and know that they are in actuality asleep and dreaming right then. 3. Strengthening your skills of observation. Observation is crucial to first determining whether or not you are dreaming, and also helps to ground yourself lucidly in the dream environment. 4. Exploring and expanding your creative mind. We all know weird stuff happens in dreams, and even in lucids can frequently see images that don't rationally belong together.

[O'nus]

I maintain that there is no difference. All a dream consists of is thoughts. Therefore to say that you are "only dreaming" of a thought is redundant. It also does not matter if only some of the people are liars. At least I know I can do it, and that's good enough for me. For anyone else, LaBerges studies should be sufficient. I posted that study and, as I said, it is still subject to this criticism; his verification methods could very easily be reflexive. I just want to note that I am playing the devils advocate here. Personally, I have had significant benefits from lucid dreaming and dream interpretation. Whether they are authentic or not is irrelevant because it has helped me. Unlike the Matrix idea, a possible inauthentic lucid dream is in no way (that I can tell) detrimental to my well-being. However, it is still interesting to note the paradox that is implied. What you are saying then, is that there is no difference between normal dreams and lucid dreams because you are saying that a dream about a lucid dream is still a lucid dream. So, a luicd dream about a normal dream is what then..? By that I mean to have absolute lucidity and then decide to have a normal dream. Try this. Do you see the paradoxical implications and their problems with lucid dreaming..? ~

[Luminous]

I'm not sure if this made any sense to me... but I'm sure that everyone who has had a lucid dream will tell you (or those doing this study) that it's very possible. How can you dream of being in a lucid dream, doesn't that make you genuine lucid anyways? No offense meant to anyone here, I'm just trying to understand here.

[skysaw]

What you are saying then, is that there is no difference between normal dreams and lucid dreams because you are saying that a dream about a lucid dream is still a lucid dream. Not sure how you made that leap. Of course there's a difference: awareness that you are dreaming. This is the only definition of lucid dreaming that I'm aware of. You can't have a normal dream that you are having a lucid because as soon as you tell yourself "I'm dreaming," you are by definition having a lucid.

[Bonsay]

The only important thing in lucid dreaming is the awareness. That's what makes a lucid lucid. Since we don't have any awareness detectors, you'll never know if the subject is lucid or just dreaming of tasks.

[O'nus]

Not sure how you made that leap. Of course there's a difference: awareness that you are dreaming. This is the only definition of lucid dreaming that I'm aware of. You can't have a normal dream that you are having a lucid because as soon as you tell yourself "I'm dreaming," you are by definition having a lucid. Okay, I'll try to demonstrate this in two examples: Lucid Dreaming of a Normal Dream: *Falls into sleep* "Hey, now that I am lucid, I am going to have a regular dream." *Follows with a normal sporadic dream that I induced* Normal Dream of a Lucid Dream: A sporadic normal dream about the idea of lucid dreaming. Does this help..? ~

[O'nus]

The only important thing in lucid dreaming is the awareness. That's what makes a lucid lucid. Since we don't have any awareness detectors, you'll never know if the subject is lucid or just dreaming of tasks. Yes, that is exactly the problem. Further, you can dream about being aware and not actually be aware. Get it? ~