Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut
We all are really dream characters, I can testify to that.
You can testify it as anecdotal evidence here, Beyond Dreaming, or any other forum or site that promotes open-minded things like this; even to anyone else in your reality, or in your case, dream characters (that are all part of your mind in a dream, since after all, they can't be dream characters if they aren't a part of your mind in a dream)....but I doubt you can testify it reasonably to the dream characters Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Neil de Grasse Tyson, or any scientist.
Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut
Yes, in fact we go through many states of consciousness in 24 hours. I would say that enlightenment is the ground state of awareness, the basic awareness that is present in all states. That is the awareness that is recognized whether one is lucid dreaming or enlightened. But yes that awareness is also in non-lucid dreams and in being drunk. But it isn't recognized. In order to recognize it we need to come out of trance.
Now you're mixing in trance again and implying we can't be aware of ourselves in it whatsoever. People can easily learn how to be aware in all trance states.
If you have evidence to testify against that as you do with your dream character analogy being as “reasonable” anecdotal evidence as anyone else testifying to Zeus, Flying Spaghetti monster, the Talking Teapot, Venus, etc....feel free to do so.
From wikipedia:
That is how I use the term. We all are really dream characters, I can testify to that. So when the dream character meditates, is he going to achieve enlightenment or is it a way to 'improve' the dream character? That is the paradox. That nothing the dream character can do will lead to its enlightenment. The dream character cannot become enlightened. The dream character doesn't even have any awareness. Yet, somehow it happens when the dream character has tried everything to achieve enlightenment and gives up. Then the awareness that has been there the whole time watching patiently wakes up and becomes lucid. How funny! How miraculous! And realizing that there are no problems and never have been any, all problems, all stress, is all just a dream! It feels like one has been carrying a 70 pound backpack for many lifetimes and one just put it down and now feels as if floating. The search for happiness and avoiding suffering is that burden that gets released in an instant of clear lucid seeing. For some reason some people pick up that burden again
I think you're completely disregarding our ability to improve ourselves through simple reasoning and analysis. As for happiness and avoiding suffering, people tend to see their friends and closed ones as fragments of who they are as a whole; be it personality, character, etc. (now don't assume I'm trying to be dualistic again literally).
Some people are not aware of certain lessons in life because they're too clouded with other situations they have to handle. Would you say growing up in a country where there's nothing but warfare, horrible distributions of the necessities of life, and higher difficulty in getting an education and making something for yourself is something where people can go, (Sarcasm noted by Italicized font)
"Oh, I have the ability to conquer all of this suffering with ease! I can conquer my difficulty to provide food for my family, to not become the next person to blow up from a suicide bomber or a gunshot. Because deep down inside, I know this is all a dream."
Applying positive thinking into reality being just a dream, it only applies to people who can get survive with ease, and it's even more convenient for the elite group of people who have it without actually putting a good amount of effort.
Suddenly understanding pain, which is a burden, doesn't need to be picked up on because it just leads to suffering, and there should be no understanding of how it feels to actually appreciate happiness because of the emotional reaction pain gives us. Suddenly seeing our loved ones die, which is a heavier pain that's a burden, suddenly is not of merit or value because HEY, we have enlightenment (it's all within us from the beginning in all states right?), so we don't need to worry about such petty things!
We don't need to worry about paying the bills, it's just a process we just put in there for the lulz. We don't need to worry about getting an education, it's just going to lead to nothing but living a bitter life. We don't need to build a resume, because after all, enlightenment that's within us in the beginning is more than enough of an enticing aspect that'll conquer everyone who has more experience than I do!
YES. I can see it now! On my resume, "AUTO ENLIGHTENED MODE 24/7, TAKE ME OR I'M OUT OF HERE...SPAMMING NIRVANA ALL DAY , I DON'T EVEN NEED THIS JOB!"
This dream like fantasy may work for your perception, but I doubt it'll work to some other person who's barely capable of having enough provisions to provide to his family. This ability of enlightenment that's the basis of all awareness definitely should have helped that person get by.
They have the knowledge to get by, and the insight to get by as well, they're just playing hard mode and not being aware of it!
But in reality, that's not the case. They do not have the knowledge simply because they either feel compelled there's no hope, that there's no need to introspection to get out of their difficult situation. And even if they did find ways, what in the world could they possibly do in the first place? I doubt they can get their dream money and help them out.
Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut
The biggest mistake somebody can make when meditating is trying to cultivate a spacious transcendental timeless awareness behind one's eyes. This is fabricated awareness.
(Sarcasm noted in Italicized font again)
Fabricated awareness? Oh, I thought that all awareness was accessible with ease since enlightenment was the basis of all awareness that's real and true? If this cultivation is a pretentious awareness, could that also mean that there's a higher chance that meditation itself is completely a fabricated awareness altogether? Since we do have enlightened as that basis, the whole sitting down, letting your thoughts gather, we don't need to do that!
How could I, a dream character, learn anything through meditation!
A beautiful transparent thought luminous with awareness. But enlightenment is not fabricated. There is no self behind those eyeballs anyway, just a brain.
Well physically, it's obvious it's just a bunch of optical nerve endings, veins, and an organ that makes up a small percentage of our body but uses more than 20% of the oxygen and energy coming in.
There is no more awareness inside your head than outside it. In fact, most of our awareness is in front of our face. To let go of the dream character of the self is to be one with the world as it is in front of your face, not behind it. Enlightenment is non-dual. Reality is non-dual. So there is no duality between inside and outside the head. It feels like the head is gone. So there is no place to have a spacious awareness there. The world becomes the container of spacious awareness.
So you're telling me in a lucid dream (inside of our heads), we cannot have more awareness than what occurs outside our heads? So you're telling me when you fixate on the details in the dream (applying awareness), when you fixate on the flower in the dream, it doesn't become more vivid than any other flower in waking life?
That it's just based solely on how we would see a flower in waking life (or the pseudo-dream world in waking life)? Suddenly other aspects of our mind that have now put less focus on external stimuli in waking life in order to augment clarity and vividness clearly has is no more awareness than what we have outside?
So when I a person screams “Clarity NOW!” in their lucid dreams, them seeing their dream environment go from zero to 1080p HD in a matter of a few split seconds isn't more than the awareness we have in waking life?
Suddenly we can multi-task without the brain having to compensate only on one or two task at most without causing a malfunction? We're completely devoid of the limits of the brain? Because after, we have enlightenment, we have knowledge and insight to make all those prevalent limits hocus pocus!
And how are you so sure the world is the only container of spacious awareness, what if there's a universe within our minds, what if there's a universe within that dream character you see? Are you aware of that universe? Are you aware of the multiverse as well?
I doubt it. Because the logic with the enlightenment being this basis of all awareness clearly applies to that, and that's nothing more than delusions.
The inner sky merges with the outer sky and there is only one sky. I feel like just a lifeless organism, that somehow is alive, running on its own batteries. Or like a vampire, the undead. But everything is beautiful, not gloomy and gothic. Emotions get liberated. How can somebody be lonely, angry, scared, stressed, etc. when one knows that this is just a dream and everybody, including myself, is a dream character?
I know right? How can someone exhibit these negative traits when they can just know it's a dream, and say, “Pfffft I got this!!”
Those damned people and their anxiety! If only they knew!
I use the analogies of dreams, and you keep saying that we are not talking about dreams, we are talking about meditating while awake. But you see, it doesn't matter. It is all just sensations appearing out of awareness. Whatever state of mind one is in, whether confused, happy, high, low, it is all just sensations, whether dream or awake. So in enlightenment there are not so many different states of mind, even though they are, they are all the same and don't effect anybody, because there is nobody here. Different states of mind are just different sensations that appear to awareness, which never changes.
Yep, we have that enlightenment within us, we don't need to use reasoning and rationalization, it's just a pain from the ego! Why search when we have it already!?!?!
Dang it, I knew I shouldn't have been empathetic towards others and trying to understanding myself! It was in me all along!
Out of this kind, there are two basic kinds: concentration and insight meditation. They go hand in hand. Every culture has these, but in different forms. In Buddhism the insight meditation is called "vipassana".
Concentration and insight go hand in hand because they are essentially the same.
Insight involves some kind of deep introspection or deep contemplative thought that requires a degree of deep concentration. Insight is fixating on a deeper aspect and concept, which goes back to concentration.
And remember, from the logic you stated, they're non-dual right? There's no duality at all!
Although your true nature, which is enlightenment, is not fabricated (or else it wouldn't be your nature), that does not mean fabrication techniques are without value. They add a richness to enlightenment, and these techniques are best used after enlightenment has been achieved. Just like in dreaming. It is silly to try to practice dream control techniques when one isn't even lucid. What a foolish idea! So, all these fabrication techniques are foolish to try before enlightenment is achieved.
Again, with this mentioning on fabrication techniques and their value, I don't think I was arguing to that. But if you stating it just for the sake of stating it, okay.
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