Thread: Xanous' Workbook

Yeah sometimes fighting it just wakes me up so I work with what I get. Its fun to just go with the dream once in awhile not worrying about any task.

That's a great idea using that time to talk to the dream I wish I had thought of that!

I think you should use that 5 am alarm as DEILD time if you can. Turn it into a good thing and not feel sad. It rarely works for me but sometimes I get lucky.

I have been out of town and finally got last night's lucids posted. The fractal rainbow demon showed up again and scared the hell out of me. In the other one, I tried speaking to the dream and asked what the dream represented but the DCs got really weird and tried to run from me with no answer. Still, it was a fun night.

#106 The Demon Returns - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

#107 Nervous DCs - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

So, I feel like I am at a point of being able to have a lucid at will. (At least for now) Some nights I purposely don't want to have one and other nights I know the right things to induce one with near 100% success. Yes, it does involve coffee as aid. People may have differing opinions about that but I'm fine with it. I will probably stop posting here so much now unless I just have a huge crazy transcendence like experience or other breakthrough. Thanks everyone.

Time to dream it's late!

So, I feel like I am at a point of being able to have a lucid at will.

Awesome! Did you ever think you'd type that sentence? What you just said is what I've long hoped to one day be able to say myself. I'm not there yet, but hopefully one day! Here, enjoy a dancing muffin to go along with that cup of coffee: And hey, check out what you said two weeks ago:

I feel like a dry spell is forming but lets hope not.

I am experimenting with caffeine and melatonin for a few nights. I will post if anything comes of it.

My oh my, how things change. So... anything ever come out of that caffeine and melatonin experiment? I was already thinking about rotating in your caffeine method at some point, but now I feel really pumped about trying it. If you don't mind, I wanted to make sure that I understand the approach.

1. Fall asleep at night w/ no particular lucid aids.
2. WBTB for 30 minutes after 5-6 hours of sleep. Drink half a cup of cold coffee (LOL, gross) and take ~2mg melatonin.
3. Perform standard SSILD, fall asleep for DILD or attempt WILD. (Both seemed to work, with DILD perhaps your more common outcome?)

Potential side effects: Dreams where Klingons try to lop off your wiener with a meat cleaver.

So is that about right for a description of the method? Very, very interesting stuff. Would you mind telling me how whether the coffee is instant/brewed/whatever and maybe what the brand is? It'd be cool to get a read on how much caffeine you're consuming. (At half a cup, it's got to be no more than 50-75 mg, I'd think.)

Caffeine has three mechanisms of action that seem relevant to me:
1) Caffeine acts as an adenosine antagonist, meaning that nerve cells will fire at a higher rate. That ought to make you more aware.
2) Effect #1 causes the pituitary gland to release adrenaline. This should improve concentration, focus, and memory during the dream.
3) Caffeine slows dopamine reabsorption, causing dopamine levels to climb. This should increase feelings of confidence and motivation, ideal for improved dream control.

What do you think? Plausible explanation for why it works so well? Lately I've been really thinking about green tea as a possible lucid aid, as it is a great source of L-Theanine, which tends to make you feel calm and alert (ideal for creating a quiet mind when falling asleep.) Green tea is a little low in caffeine, though, so it might be like 3 cups to get the same caffeine that you're getting. An LD wouldn't be as much fun if I wind up wetting the bed in the middle of it, heh heh heh... But still! WBTB green tea is something I'm very interested in as a lucid aid as well, particularly after all of the success you've had w/ caffeine by other means.

Congratulations again! I'm really excited for you. To your continued success!

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Awesome! Did you ever think you'd type that sentence? What you just said is what I've long hoped to one day be able to say myself. I'm not there yet, but hopefully one day! Here, enjoy a dancing muffin to go along with that cup of coffee: And hey, check out what you said two weeks ago:

No and I am really hoping I don't put my foot in my mouth but I've done it for 2 weeks straight with awesome success. Of course I took a break in there to rest. I hate to say it but last night was the first failure but I know why. Maybe I was over confident but I feel lucid dreaming is half confidence and greatly increases your chances of lucidity. Anyway, I got to sleep way late last night and did WBTB at my usual time. So less initial sleep. I should have waited but I know my son usually wakes about 5:30-6:00 and I was afraid that he would interrupt my dreaming. I didn't stay up but for a few minutes and then I just passed out not even trying any induction. So yeah. But I did have a huge recall boost after that. I guess I was just too wiped to really be lucid.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

My oh my, how things change. So... anything ever come out of that caffeine and melatonin experiment? I was already thinking about rotating in your caffeine method at some point, but now I feel really pumped about trying it. If you don't mind, I wanted to make sure that I understand the approach.

1. Fall asleep at night w/ no particular lucid aids.
2. WBTB for 30 minutes after 5-6 hours of sleep. Drink half a cup of cold coffee (LOL, gross) and take ~2mg melatonin.
3. Perform standard SSILD, fall asleep for DILD or attempt WILD. (Both seemed to work, with DILD perhaps your more common outcome?)

Yes that's about right. But the idea of my WBTB was 2.5 to 2 hours before wake time. I don't always WBTB for 30 but that's the best time for me. I try to resist melatonin because it seems my dreams become less vivid. I usually take a B6 with it to try and counter that. That part is still experimental. Also, once in awhile I will try to repeat that white lucid WILD I had at the beginning of sleep a while back. I'll just give it a good SSILD/WILD attempt just for the fun of it but I almost always pass out like and sleep like a rock. Hasn't happened yet but I'd love to revisit that. Oh an I forgot to mention that I have been taking 5MG Melatonin about 30 before bed. I don't know if that has any effect but maybe.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Potential side effects: Dreams where Klingons try to lop off your wiener with a meat cleaver.

Haha actually that was pre WBTB. So no. The worst thing that will happen is you never get back to sleep. Enter melatonin.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

So is that about right for a description of the method? Very, very interesting stuff. Would you mind telling me how whether the coffee is instant/brewed/whatever and maybe what the brand is? It'd be cool to get a read on how much caffeine you're consuming. (At half a cup, it's got to be no more than 50-75 mg, I'd think.)

Well my methods of measurement are crude heehee. The coffee is just Great Value brand brewed. Actually my coffee maker broke so I have just been putting half a baby formula scoop full into a large mug of hot water and letting it set when I go to bed. Then during WBTB I strain it and drink a few mouthfuls (about half a regular sized mug). I have no idea the how many MG of caffeine it is. I have been wondering that myself. I think the amounts will be different for each person. Too much and you stay awake!

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Caffeine has three mechanisms of action that seem relevant to me:
1) Caffeine acts as an adenosine antagonist, meaning that nerve cells will fire at a higher rate. That ought to make you more aware.
2) Effect #1 causes the pituitary gland to release adrenaline. This should improve concentration, focus, and memory during the dream.
3) Caffeine slows dopamine reabsorption, causing dopamine levels to climb. This should increase feelings of confidence and motivation, ideal for improved dream control.

What do you think? Plausible explanation for why it works so well? Lately I've been really thinking about green tea as a possible lucid aid, as it is a great source of L-Theanine, which tends to make you feel calm and alert (ideal for creating a quiet mind when falling asleep.) Green tea is a little low in caffeine, though, so it might be like 3 cups to get the same caffeine that you're getting. An LD wouldn't be as much fun if I wind up wetting the bed in the middle of it, heh heh heh... But still! WBTB green tea is something I'm very interested in as a lucid aid as well, particularly after all of the success you've had w/ caffeine by other means.

That sounds like a good explanation to me! Of course, it will not do anything for you without daily awareness practices and a good induction tech but I don't need to tell you that I'm sure. I think you should give the green tea a try since that is what you are used to drinking anyway. I can't wait to see the results!

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Congratulations again! I'm really excited for you. To your continued success!

Thanks! You're always so thorough and sharp as a tack. It seems that you always point out things that the OP never even thought of.

Originally Posted by Xanous

I try to resist melatonin because it seems my dreams become less vivid. I usually take a B6 with it to try and counter that. That part is still experimental. Also, once in awhile I will try to repeat that white lucid WILD I had at the beginning of sleep a while back. I'll just give it a good SSILD/WILD attempt just for the fun of it but I almost always pass out like and sleep like a rock. Hasn't happened yet but I'd love to revisit that. Oh an I forgot to mention that I have been taking 5MG Melatonin about 30 before bed. I don't know if that has any effect but maybe.

Yeah, that all makes sense to me. Melatonin is of course great for helping you get back to sleep but also probably suppresses REM for a while. Melatonin has a short half-life but 5mg is also a pretty hefty dose. So I'd estimate that you have a hefty REM rebound building up in the later phases of sleep. Of course, the life of the family man dictates that you don't always get to the later stages of sleep.

Originally Posted by Xanous

Well my methods of measurement are crude heehee. The coffee is just Great Value brand brewed. Actually my coffee maker broke so I have just been putting half a baby formula scoop full into a large mug of hot water and letting it set when I go to bed. Then during WBTB I strain it and drink a few mouthfuls (about half a regular sized mug). I have no idea the how many MG of caffeine it is. I have been wondering that myself. I think the amounts will be different for each person. Too much and you stay awake!

Cool, thanks for the info! Back of the envelope, we could say that a cup of the brewed stuff is 100-110 mg of caffeine. So you're consuming perhaps 50-55mg of caffeine? Maybe 75mg tops? Energyfiend says green tea has 25-40mg per 8-ounce glass, so 1-2 glasses might be perfect. And with the L-theanine the green tea contains, much less (or even no) melatonin might be necessary for sleep. Considering that I almost never consume caffeine, 1 glass might be ideal for my own first experiment.

So is this all of the caffeine you consume? Other than this, have you given it up entirely? Since caffeine tolerance is such an individual thing (and changes readily over time), all of these numbers are just for estimation purposes anyway.

BTW, energyfiend's "Death by Caffeine" calculator says that drinking "104.76 cups of coffee" in a single sitting has enough caffeine to kill the average male. So be careful not to miscount during that WBTB! Death by Caffeine

Originally Posted by Xanous

That sounds like a good explanation to me! Of course, it will not do anything for you without daily awareness practices and a good induction tech but I don't need to tell you that I'm sure. I think you should give the green tea a try since that is what you are used to drinking anyway. I can't wait to see the results!

Thanks! You're always so thorough and sharp as a tack. It seems that you always point out things that the OP never even thought of.

Thanks, brother, I appreciate that! And I'm right there with you on the primacy of awareness practices, mindset, and a solid induction tech. No lucid aid can do anything more than unlock your own potential and maximize the training and work that you put in. I will certainly try out that green tea experiment sometime soon and post the results in my workbook!

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

So is this all of the caffeine you consume? Other than this, have you given it up entirely? Since caffeine tolerance is such an individual thing (and changes readily over time), all of these numbers are just for estimation purposes anyway.

BTW, energyfiend's "Death by Caffeine" calculator says that drinking "104.76 cups of coffee" in a single sitting has enough caffeine to kill the average male. So be careful not to miscount during that WBTB! Death by Caffeine

Awesome thoughts. I can't wait to see your results. I may try the green tea myself instead of coffee for a few nights. I like the fact that it has lower caffeine content, making it less likely to get too much and die stay awake. I looked up the wiki entry for L-theanine and I find it an interesting thing to consider.

I do drink coffee regularly. I stopped drinking an entire pot and only have one or two mugs in the morning.

All right so for integrity sake and my belief in total honesty. I failed again last night. I think I was a bit too hasty when I said "at will". How embarrassing.

The causes are my own fault. I just realized I have been really lazy with my own basic routines. I did everything right but my awareness just wasn't quite there. Close, but I didn't get it. I only had a really long and vivid non-lucid dream when the alarm woke me. Oh well, I'll just put more focus on the basics and try again. Like I said before, it's not the aid that makes the lucid happen. It's your own ability. The aid is just that; An aid.

Edit: It is possible I forgot the lucid. For some reason lucid recall has been an issue for me. That's one reason why we work so hard at recall and keeping a DJ.

Just goes to show how delicate the whole aspect of LDing is.
As for the aids, I few them as training wheels, great to get you started and to make it more easy. But in the end you want to ride it on your own.

Originally Posted by Booney

Just goes to show how delicate the whole aspect of LDing is.
As for the aids, I few them as training wheels, great to get you started and to make it more easy. But in the end you want to ride it on your own.

It's all part of the whole package. There are many ways to lucidity. The daily practice of awareness, or keeping a dream journal, ect. could be considered an aid when you think about it. If you really "ride it on your own" then do no routine or DJ or induction and lay down to sleep with nothing but pure intent. How many luicds will come then? I don't quite see it that way but thanks. I've had this discussion before.

Well I agree, everything that helps is an aid including mantra's and DJing. LDing is hard without it if not near impossible.
If it were easy this forum wouldn't exist.

Thank you. Sageous once pointed out that lucid dreaming goes against our nature. I have to agree with that. It is a great struggle since our natural state is being unaware and asleep. Even Tibetan monks do crazy things like sleeping sitting up in box or going on dark retreats for weeks at a time. So I try to stay open minded when some one finds a short cut even if it doesnt last we still have experienced more than most. That in its self is amazing.

Originally Posted by Xanous

All right so for integrity sake and my belief in total honesty. I failed again last night. I think I was a bit too hasty when I said "at will". How embarrassing.

The causes are my own fault. I just realized I have been really lazy with my own basic routines. I did everything right but my awareness just wasn't quite there. Close, but I didn't get it. I only had a really long and vivid non-lucid dream when the alarm woke me. Oh well, I'll just put more focus on the basics and try again. Like I said before, it's not the aid that makes the lucid happen. It's your own ability. The aid is just that; An aid.

Edit: It is possible I forgot the lucid. For some reason lucid recall has been an issue for me. That's one reason why we work so hard at recall and keeping a DJ.

I've been there too! I've accepted the fact that I can't find a method that will work every single time. From my experience, I can say the best thing you could do is execute your technique to the best of your ability each time, not stressing about the result and putting pressure on yourself. If the technique is good enough, you know if you keep doing this you will get lucid sometime soon.

Originally Posted by Xanous

All right so for integrity sake and my belief in total honesty. I failed again last night. I think I was a bit too hasty when I said "at will". How embarrassing.
...
Edit: It is possible I forgot the lucid. For some reason lucid recall has been an issue for me. That's one reason why we work so hard at recall and keeping a DJ.

Ah, no worries. No streak lasts forever, and that one was getting pretty epic. Just think of it as a concrete reminder of what you already know: even the perfect strategy is totally reliant on your hard work and the readiness of your basic practices.

Originally Posted by Booney

Just goes to show how delicate the whole aspect of LDing is.
As for the aids, I few them as training wheels, great to get you started and to make it more easy. But in the end you want to ride it on your own.

Training wheels are an interesting analogy. You could say that training wheels are only for toddlers and young, inexperienced children. And lucid dreaming enthusiasts are mostly toddlers in a world full of helpless infants. Most people live out their lives without ever even climbing on the bike, training wheels or no!

But I wonder whether lucid aids are more like top-grade fuel. Ultimately, the car and driver are what win you the race. But the best cars run better on top-notch fuel. However, above all, the most important thing is to always be damn careful what you're putting in your engine. Don't turn on the nitrous unless you know exactly what you're doing.

Originally Posted by Xanous

Thank you. Sageous once pointed out that lucid dreaming goes against our nature. I have to agree with that. It is a great struggle since our natural state is being unaware and asleep.

This topic alone (is lucid dreaming natural?) is fascinating to me. A fellow named Roger Ekirch had an interesting theory that before the industrial revolution, most people stayed up for about an hour in the middle of the night and that this was the natural pattern of human sleep. If so, this would mean that a WBTB was natural human behavior. I'd further wager that lucid dreaming would have been way more common. It's an interesting idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

This topic alone (is lucid dreaming natural?) is fascinating to me. A fellow named Roger Ekirch had an interesting theory that before the industrial revolution, most people stayed up for about an hour in the middle of the night and that this was the natural pattern of human sleep. If so, this would mean that a WBTB was natural human behavior. I'd further wager that lucid dreaming would have been way more common. It's an interesting idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

Interesting! Too bad society forgot this. I'd say dream recall must have been more common. Too many people now-a-days claim they don't dream. Of course we know better. But I wonder if lucid dreams were more common then without awareness practice. Hmmm maybe.

Oh cool. I do find it interesting how there are many people who always had lucids, then when they found out what it was called, etc., they stopped having them. :O i wonder what could be behind that..

I may start a thread in another part of the forum or do a search about this one later, but I wanted to post this here first as I don't have much time. I did a 30min WBTB and used that time to meditate. I used no aids and went back to bed and did SSILD.

I had this OBE like blind lucid but at the same time I was having a non-lucid dream. I never considered this a possibility.

Lucid #108 Dual Dreams - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Holy cow! Just reading that entry gave me doozy

So I guess I'll update. My caffeine results are still pretty good. Sunday night I was at my sister-in-laws but I still wanted to WBTB. I had green tea made up and discretely packed away. I felt odd meditating in their living room with people sleeping on the couch and I didn't want to disturbed my wife and kids, so I just chugged the tea and meditated myself to sleep. Failure. I was super tired and had little focus. BUT This morning I missed my WBTB alarm by an hour. So when I finally got up I didn't want to spend much time on WBTB. I had coffee prepared already so I just got up long enough to drink and pee and jump back into bed and do a little SSILD. The coffee was STRONG so I took 2MG melatonin and 200MG B6 for fun. It gave me a half DILD/DEILD CHAIN OBE but it was short. I got to test some new exit ideas but it was pretty bland other than that.

So what I found out- it seems that if I don't stay up awhile (30 Min is good) then I need stronger caffeine than green tea. If I do stay up and just meditate, then very little to none works. Maybe caffeine is just a WBTB cheat for me? All in all my success rate with caffeine is still near 100% but I still wouldn't say that I can LD at will (Don't get cocky, kid!) I may try caffeine pills if I can get the MG lower. It would be nice to know how much caffeine is the right amount.

And once more; I don't do it every night. I'm not saying anything is wrong with it but it is much better for my sleep patterns to rest on the caffeine 3 to 4 night out of the week. A longer WBTB with meditation does fine. In fact, Some nights I don't even care to LD.

This is a great video on meditation. I like the method its simple and effective. If you're like me you will have to ignore all the mystical stuff and look at purely from the perspective of lucid dreaming. I haven't used this as an induction tech but it seems like a great way to WILD. Other than that I use this method during WBTB and got great results.

Any of Jody whitelys YouTube videos really helped me on guided relaxation fOr my wbtb

Wurlman! How the heck are you?

I had a random DILD without really trying but I can't totally remember it. I am not adding it to my count because of it. All I know is that I was in school trying to find my classroom. I saw a bunch of kids from elementary. Kids I have never even thought of since. I saw their faces vividly. I was standing outside a class but I was unsure if I was supposed to be there. I pull out my phone to see if I had a schedule on it. It dawns on me that I never had cells phone in school. (wow I feel old) I become lucid and I remember that I feel mischievous. I get some DC to do something by saying something like, "Hey remember you told me earlier that you would XYZ?" And they were totally agreeable. I just can't remember what it was. I was excited because I heard a long time ago that this was a good way to get a DC to behave but I forgot all about it.

Well anyway, this is a prime example why recall is #1. I have been having lucids pretty regularly this month (knock on wood) and it has spoiled me. I have put less importance on my DJ and my non-lucids. Some of it is laziness and some of it is time management but I need to try harder. I have been forgetting way too many lucids!

Hey Xan, grats on the lucid! That DC thing sounds interesting, I'm gonna have to give it a try!

Originally Posted by Xanous

Wurlman! How the heck are you?

Hey bro! Glad to see how far u have came well no point in telling lies so here goes lol I got off working nights and went to days but they still had me working about 60 to 70 hr a week then I fell off the waggon and started to smoke pot again so two months later here I am 4 days without but still working crazy hours ugh but yea it was a nice "weed" break but it's time to hop back on the road to lucidity! I've got a lot of ur DJ to read! Have a good day bro