Thread: CanisLucidus' Workbook

This should prevent any tolerance from building up.

I think this may have been the cause of my failures. Why did I not see that? I'm glad to see it worked out for you!

I like your slow and careful approach to caffeine and especially G. I'm really meaning to get some G (It's expensive) as soon as the holiday are done. I think one night/week is a good idea. I'm curious, do you take Choline or Melatonin with it? I think I read something suggesting it but I don't know why. I bought like a trial pack of 3 or 5 a few years ago. I had only one LD in that week I took it. The other nights were extremely restless but I think I must have recalled every dream of the night! I wasn't impressed with the lucidity effects from it but I was also out of practice then.

I got some new info on meditation today and I think tonight I will continue to skip aids but spend my 30min WBTB meditating in a sitting posture. I think the thing I must do is keep it "fresh".

Originally Posted by Xanous

I think this may have been the cause of my failures. Why did I not see that? I'm glad to see it worked out for you!

It does seem like changing things up works well for you. Caffeine's a funny thing. The amount you were drinking at WBTB was pretty small but perhaps your body simply grew accustomed to its effects and you just didn't get that same bolt of alertness. But cycling it out like you're doing seems like the best way to address this. Since you get bored easily anyway, having different approaches that you rotate in should be a good fit for you.

Originally Posted by Xanous

I like your slow and careful approach to caffeine and especially G. I'm really meaning to get some G (It's expensive) as soon as the holiday are done. I think one night/week is a good idea. I'm curious, do you take Choline or Melatonin with it? I think I read something suggesting it but I don't know why. I bought like a trial pack of 3 or 5 a few years ago. I had only one LD in that week I took it. The other nights were extremely restless but I think I must have recalled every dream of the night! I wasn't impressed with the lucidity effects from it but I was also out of practice then.

Right, I'm combining galantamine with choline. I'm actually employing two sources of choline: choline bitartrate and Alpha-GPC. And yes, last night I used a tiny amount of melatonin (0.75mg, or 1/4th of a 3mg tablet.) Galantamine should be far more effective when paired with a source of choline. For completeness, I should mention that on galantamine day, I take 5-HTP before bed to make sure I rack up tons of deep sleep before bed. We can talk on PM / visitor message / whatever if you want to know more.

In addition, it's critical that you only use galantamine after a WBTB. Taking it at the beginning of the night will utterly screw you over. When your body would naturally be shifting into deep sleep, high levels of acetylcholine will be trying to push you into lots of REM. You also don't want to take it on consecutive nights. Its elimination half life is 7 hours, so it's going to take a couple of days to clear from your system. Since it can desensitize your acetylcholine receptors, you just don't want to overdo it. Piracetam can help here, but again, you want to have really done your homework. If you do decide to use galantamine, definitely check out Yuschak's book beforehand.

The meditation idea sounds great! Let me know how it goes. It really seems like rotating through a larger set of solid ideas may be perfect for you. That's what I'm trying to do as well. Changing things up keeps it all fresh and really should help with the whole tolerance issue.

You guys are really making me want to experiment with G. I was just talking to a student about it in #LucidDreaming yesterday. I really admire your willingness to try it once a week, and only if you have an LD inbetween without using it. I should have done that with the 5-htp to begin with. Because now I'm too paranoid to touch the stuff again haha.

Anyway, I'm excited to see how you continue with this CL!

Taking it at the beginning of the night will utterly screw you over.

I think that's were I went wrong before. I will PM you for more info when it comes time. Thanks!

Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue

You guys are really making me want to experiment with G. I was just talking to a student about it in #LucidDreaming yesterday. I really admire your willingness to try it once a week, and only if you have an LD inbetween without using it. I should have done that with the 5-htp to begin with. Because now I'm too paranoid to touch the stuff again haha.

Anyway, I'm excited to see how you continue with this CL!

Heh heh, I totally get what you mean! Remember that I am the guy who managed to get a poison ivy-like rash on his face just from eating a freakin mango! So I am very understanding of the desire to be as careful as possible.

FWIW, I utilize 5-HTP before bed on my galantamine day. It's the only day that I use it. It's 5-HTP before bed, then G+C only after a WBTB, with a super-small serving of melatonin. (I literally chop up a 3mg tab with a knife.) Edit: Also, piracetam the next morning as an extra preventive measure against desensitization, although the infrequency alone is probably enough.

And thanks for the compliment about the approach. I like to build my failsafes in at the beginning when willpower is still plentiful. If you have any questions at all about G+C, please don't hesitate to hit me up.

Originally Posted by Xanous

I think that's were I went wrong before. I will PM you for more info when it comes time. Thanks!

Cool, if you were taking it before bed then the fix will be really easy... just going to WBTB would be a huge difference. I never tried taking galantamine right before bed but everything I've read indicates that it is a pretty unpleasant experience. But after 5 hours of sleep, it's a different story entirely. And with 5-HTP before bed, the effect is magnified since you've spent the vast majority of that time in deep sleep.

Do you need to take G+C to make use of 5-HTP or will it have an effect on its own without taking G+C after WBTB.


Also isn't 5-HTP super dangerous and banned in most countries?

Originally Posted by BossMan

Do you need to take G+C to make use of 5-HTP or will it have an effect on its own without taking G+C after WBTB.

Also isn't 5-HTP super dangerous and banned in most countries?

Hey Boss! Good questions, thanks! Unfortunately, I've got to be brief, but the sole purpose of 5-HTP is to suppress REM in the early part of the night. That gives you more deep sleep at the beginning and REM rebound after your WBTB. This potentially leads to longer dreams.

When paired with G+C, the idea is to get lots of deep sleep at the beginning of the night, then lots of REM at the end of the night (since this is what all that acetylcholine will push you toward.) The idea is that this allows you to still get sufficient deep sleep that you feel pretty good the next day in spite of an intense night of dreaming. So that is the only reason that I personally would employ the 5-HTP. Melatonin would also work fine for this purpose. Or you could use absolutely nothing and just catch up on the sleep later. Any option is probably fine, and I will probably cycle all three!

I believe that cycling and using the minimum required dose for any aid is a good practice and helps greatly limit your exposure to side effects. Less is often more with these things and by using them infrequently, cycling certain aids, and simply using low doses, you end up on a very good spot on the risk-reward continuum. IMO.

As for 5-HTP's safety, I believe that the primary risks are serotonin syndrome (if taken in high doses or paired with an antidepressant, or other interacting drug) and the long-term risks of elevated levels of serum serotonin in the body. I'm not concerned about serotonin syndrome, as my 5-HTP use is once per week at most, and likely to become even less frequent over time. The danger of elevated serum serotonin is one to take seriously, but again, at low doses and infrequent use, it's not something that I personally was too concerned with. Therapeutic use can be more like 300-900mg per day, every day, so 2100-6300mg per week. A once per week (or less) use of 50-100mg just isn't in the same ballpark, so I haven't worried too much about it.

That being said, the 5-HTP is easy to drop. It's just not all that essential. Replacing with melatonin or forgetting REM suppression are both options that I'll try at some point to compare.

And oh yeah, my update! No further LDs but many lucid fragments lately. I had a B-complex last night and recalled 9 dreams, which was a bit nuts. I'd rather have a lucid dream, of course, but I certainly can't complain with that!

Holidays are busy for me, so my availability will be pretty sporadic. Merry Christmas, happy holidays, happy New Year, etc. everyone! Hope you're all having some great dreams!

Christmas morning was a really busy morning for LDing. I had three lucid dreams, including the first WILD that I've ever achieved without galantamine. That's a big one for me, because I've long had a bit of a mental block about WILD. I know that I shouldn't, but it was still there. I'm happy that those walls are coming down.

I'm coming to believe that meditation skills and lucid dreaming skills have tremendous overlap. The more that I focus on meditation-like practices during my WBTB and between dreams, the better things seem to go, particularly with DEILD and WILD.

And it's funny how the big nights of lucid dreaming often come after a string of non-lucid days.

Tech: SSILD w/ 30-minute WBTB, 3 cycles SSILD between LDs
Pre-bed food: Big-ass Christmas Eve dinner
Sleep: ~9 hours

Here are the dreams:
The Subconscious Arcade - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Turtles All the Way Down - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
The Gauntlet of Greed - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

There's nothing like presents from your subC on Christmas morning!

Galantamine Insomnia
I tried a 3rd round w/ galantamine + choline last night during my WBTB. I dropped a few items from my usual cocktail and had a ton of trouble getting back to sleep! I managed only two brief moments where I fell back asleep. Each time I did manage to get a lucid fragment, but they blew up in under a minute. I'll write them up below.

I changed several elements from my two previous (more successful) trials with galantamine. The differences this time:
-No REM suppressor before bedtime (no 5-HTP, no melatonin)
-Skipped small dose of melatonin (0.75mg) during WBTB
-Very short WBTB (~8 minutes rather than 30)

Overall, I had way too much of an acetylcholine rush going on, and falling asleep at all was extremely difficult. This also made DEILDs tricky. At least the lucid fragments were cool, but I really wish they'd gone further!

Next trial with galantamine, I'll still leave off the REM suppressor at bedtime, but bring back the melatonin and usual 30-minute WBTB.

Lucid Fragments
Not sure where all of this fighting came from! It's fun, no doubt, but I tend to get very caught up in the "danger" of the moment, even while lucid.

First lucid fragment: I'm in a dark, torchlit arena where I'm fighting with a 12-foot-tall demon made all of bone. I summon a bone demon of my own and become lucid when I see what I am capable of doing. My demon engages with the enemy. I prepare to summon another just before I wake up.

Second lucid fragment: I'm walking through a labyrinth following some stranger who I consider a friend or ally. As we're rounding a corner, a guy in kung-fu pants and a headband kicks me in the face. I become lucid as my friend grabs on to the stranger and starts fighting with him. The martial artist is much more dangerous than my friend but I start hitting our opponent in the face while they fight. (It's kinda cheap, got to admit.) When I strike the martial artist on the cheekbone, his skin splits and large feathers start leaking out of it. I hit him again and the head of a bird starts to emerge, freaking me out and waking me up.

Sorry about the insomnia but this...

his skin splits and large feathers start leaking out of it. I hit him again and the head of a bird starts to emerge, freaking me out and waking me up.

...is so cool it would have made the whole thing worth it for me.

Yeah I gotta agree with Xanous. The freaky deaky bird man was cool.

So your experiments with G+C and 5-HTP are interesting. Are you about to go on your stretch of days without supplements? I may hit a 5-htp this week. my work schedule is all wonky lately, and it has wonked up my LDing pattern.

Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue

So your experiments with G+C and 5-HTP are interesting. Are you about to go on your stretch of days without supplements? I may hit a 5-htp this week. my work schedule is all wonky lately, and it has wonked up my LDing pattern.

Yeah, the G+C I limit to once per calendar week, so I'm sort of in the middle of the stretch without galantamine. The main factor is that I haven't had a true LD in a few days, so if I crack that I would maybe try G+C on Wednesday. (For a variety of reasons, Wednesday night is a good night for getting enough sleep and having the right set of circumstances for galantamine.) But if I don't hit an LD this week (inconceivable ) then I'll just skip G this week until my LDs come back around on their own.

As for other aids, I still rotate in experiments with caffeine and B-complex during the week. (For example, I'm going to be taking a B-complex here in a few minutes, as I'm typing this from my WBTB.) Even though the caffeine is extremely low-dose, I limit it to twice per week max, and B-complex or B-6 to 1-2 times per week. That still gives me plenty of latitude for gathering data without much danger of building a tolerance.

Hey, did you ever try melatonin to compare it to 5-HTP? I tried melatonin last night and it put me dreamlessly under until WBTB, similar to the 5-HTP. I'll be finding out soon what it does to dream quality. I'd expect that there'd be differences in effects between the two (for a variety of reasons) and I'm curious to eventually unravel what those are for me. I keep my exposure to 5-HTP pretty low-frequency, though, so the data-gathering will take a while.

New Year's Day Lucids
I had two lucid dreams this morning after the WBTB where I wrote the beginning of this post. Again with the holiday LDs. Very interesting. They were both fun, with the second particularly long and relatively eventful. Most importantly, I was really feeling ready for an LD, so it was great to have some arrive.

Here are the DJ entries for these two:
The Thragian Age - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
The Obsidian Tower - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Melatonin and B-complex Results
The melatonin worked great as an REM suppressant, as expected. I had only one tiny fragment of a dream before my WBTB and woke up feeling physically quite fresh. The B-complex made it just slightly tougher to fall asleep, but in the end it worked out fine. I'll definitely be keeping this combo in mind in the future.

Pre-bed: 3mg melatonin
WBTB: 100mg B-complex
Tech: SSILD w/ 40 minute WBTB
Results: Two lucid dreams. Slight sleep difficulty. Relaxed mood at WBTB. Mental focus "okay".

Good deal on the aid combo. Nice!

I love your first one. In dream WILDs crack me up.

Originally Posted by Xanous

Good deal on the aid combo. Nice!

I love your first one. In dream WILDs crack me up.

Thanks! Yeah, I loved that in-dream WILD... I just popped right in! It would be nice if all WILDs were that easy. Come to think of it, I actually had in-dream WILD as a lucid goal! I'd intended to do it while lucid, but it was pretty awesome (and unexpected) from an NLD. I'll still have to try it while lucid some time. I really think it might have potential as a teleportation device!

2012 Wrap-up and New Goals
I had my first lucid dream (completely by accident) back in April of this year and then spent the next two months trying to make it happen again. After hitting my 2nd LD, I found SSILD and got into a bit more regular rhythm, although many dreams were still short and unfocused. (I'd probably call some of them fragments by my current standards.)

When I joined this class back in August, I had 9 lucid dreams after several months of work (a number I'm still damn proud of, and the result of months of work.) My final count for 2012 was 50 lucid dreams, meaning that I've had 41 lucid dreams since joining the intro class. That's no coincidence, and I'm extremely grateful to the staff and students here for the support, advice, and inspiration throughout this time. Thank you!!

This morning's lucids I'll count toward January, 2013. My major goals for the year will be to hit 100 more lucid dreams (for a total count of 150) and to complete the Task of the Year. Task of the Year's a big fish for me, but I feel like I can pull it off. Perhaps I should see what it is before I say that. LOL.

I'll probably let the Pyramid goal drop for a month or so. It's still important to me but I seem to keep getting stuck going for it. I'll get back to it with fresh energy in a few weeks.

Spoiler for Final Update on December Goals:

-Have 7 lucid dreams this month
-Complete a Basic Task of the Month
-Complete an Advanced Task of the Month
-Complete the "Trinity" or "Apollo 11" Task of the Year items
-Fly, jump or climb to the top of the Great Pyramid (from November)
-Perform at least one DEILD (from November)

Lucid dreams this month: 16

Goals for January:
-Have 10 lucid dreams this month
-Complete Basic Task of the Month
-Complete Advanced Task of the Month
-Complete at least one Task of the Year item
-Teleport to a new location by creating a portal
-Teleport to a new location by performing an in-dream WILD

Lucid dreams this month: 2

Goals for 2013:
-Have 100 lucid dreams
-Complete the Task of the Year

Correct me if I'm wrong but your tech for supplements is as follows:

1. Take 100mg of 5-htp before sleeping
2. WBTB+5hrs stay up ~20m
3. take 4mg Galantamine + 400mg choline before retuning to bed
4. Let epic dreams commence

Originally Posted by BossMan

Correct me if I'm wrong but your tech for supplements is as follows:

Pretty darn close. There are a few other details, such as Alpha-GPC during WBTB and Piracetam in the morning to prevent desensitization. I will lay out the details on my attempts thus far while chronicling last night's fail.

Galantamine Insomnia, Part 2
I did my 4th round with galantamine + choline last night, and I'm humbled to report that I wound up with one very vivid NLD, then absolutely rock-solid insomnia for the rest of the morning as soon as I woke up from it! I swapped in melatonin pre-bed, replacing the 5-HTP. I also left out the small dose of melatonin (0.75mg) during WBTB. (This may have been critical, as it's the same change I made last week.)

Pre-bed: 3mg melatonin
WBTB (after 5 hours of sleep): 4mg galantamine, 700mg choline (from choline bitartrate), 300mg Alpha-GPC
Tech: SSILD w/ 15 minute WBTB
Results: Almost immediate, vivid non-lucid followed by insomnia.

For the next trial, I'll be attacking this insomnia side effect. I will either rotate in L-theanine OR the tiny melatonin dose into the WBTB. In addition, I will return to using 5-HTP as the REM suppressor pre-bed. I may also drop the GPC and/or reduce the bitartrate to bring down the levels of free choline just a bit.

Successful Galantamine Cocktail
For comparison, this is the G+C routine that I had success with twice. Note the small amount of melatonin during the WBTB both times. I theorize that to replicate this success without melatonin I'll either need to reduce free choline, get better at meditation, or use an aid like L-theanine. I'll find out more next week!

Pre-bed: 100mg 5-HTP
WBTB (after 5 hours of sleep): 4mg galantamine, 700mg choline (from choline bitartrate), 300mg Alpha-GPC, 0.75mg melatonin
Tech: SSILD w/ 30 minute WBTB
After waking: 1600mg piracetam
Result: Multiple WILDs and DILDs.

Spoiler for Failed G+C Cocktails:

12/27/2012 (Semi-failure)
Pre-bed: Nothing
WBTB (after 5 hours of sleep): 4mg galantamine, 700mg choline (from choline bitartrate), 300mg Alpha-GPC
Tech: SSILD w/ 15 minute WBTB
After waking: 2400mg piracetam
Results: Two lucid fragments intermingled with insomnia.

01/02/2013
Pre-bed: 3mg melatonin
WBTB (after 5 hours of sleep): 4mg galantamine, 700mg choline (from choline bitartrate), 300mg Alpha-GPC
Tech: SSILD w/ 15 minute WBTB
After waking: 2400mg piracetam
Results: Almost immediate, vivid non-lucid followed by insomnia.

Green Tea Result
Last night, I tried green tea again. (It had been a while.) I drank 12 ounces and had no trouble at all falling to sleep. Thinking back to the difference between my successful and unsuccessful trials with the green tea, the successful trials have always occurred with "diet" green tea. In other words, the one time that green tea kept me up, it contained some sugar. That no doubt played a role in keeping me up. I'm surprised that I hadn't thought of this before!

Anyhow, I now feel pretty comfortable trying a full 16 ounces (2 cups) of green tea the next time. I think that the sugar was the real issue, not the caffeine. In addition, I spent the WBTB mostly meditating, and I have to think that helped as well.

Pre-bed: 3g fish oil (so nothing, basically)
WBTB (after ~3 hours of sleep, too soon, but I got confused): 12 oz green tea right before going back to sleep
Tech: SSILD after meditation during 25-minute WBTB
Results: Two vivid dreams, one nearly lucid. Pretty good sleep until the kids woke up.

Thoughts on Galantamine and Peak Plasma
I have thought a bit more on the best way to reduce free choline when trying G+C. It occurred to me that choline bitartrate has a much faster time to peak plasma than Alpha-GPC (1 hour vs 3 hours.) That means that the high amount of choline bitartrate is likely more responsible for the early rush and subsequent insomnia.

Leaving in the Alpha-GPC and reducing choline bitartrate should give me a much smoother curve of rising free choline (and hopefully, rising acetylcholine.) So next time I will cut choline bitartrate back to 200mg and leave Alpha-GPC unchanged. I'll likely also include some L-theanine.

I'm feeling pretty good about this recipe, so I'll try that next. Of course, I've gotta have another LD in order to earn myself another dance with galantamine.

Also, I'm interested in how alpha-GPC might do on its own as a lucidity trigger. Should definitely be worth a shot!

Two LDs and Alpha-GPC
I had a pair of lucid dreams last night! During my WBTB I discovered that the dogs had done something very unpleasant, so I went back to bed in a bit of a bad mood. I took an Alpha-GPC just before settling down to sleep and ran some SSILD cycles. Because I'd been busy during my WBTB, it took a little while to fall asleep.

Fortunately, when I did fall asleep, I had a pretty good (though slightly brief) DEILD chain that obliquely referenced the Task of the Year. After I woke up from that, I was feeling bit amped and buzzed (probably both from the LD and from the GPC.) Still, I got to sleep okay and got another DILD later in the morning. Here are the DJ entries:

The Cestus - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Into the Gray Matter - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Pre-bed: 2 bags popcorn
WBTB: 300mg Alpha-GPC
Tech: SSILD after 40-minute, very active WBTB

So this definitely seems to show that GPC can be a pretty decent trigger on its own. Probably not nearly as powerful as G+C, but an interesting option to have in the toolbelt!

Nice lucids. I like one where rubbing your hands sort of generated electricity and the lights came back. Great DEILD work too man.

BTW I had a pre-WBTB dream where I was helping DV member Wurlman look for his dog which later turned into his friend who was "special". Anyway where were running a familiar dream neighborhood on foot. You are out for a jog. My mind turns cartwheels at the sight of you and I just politely wave. Wurlman is all like dude it's.... uh.... CL. I ALMOST get lucid but I end up lying to myself to make sense of it all instead of seeing the obvious. ( I wonder how many time I do this in RL ) I just told Wurlman how ironic it is that we met on DV but you actually live in Joplin. I didn't even think about how Wurlman was here too. LOL.

Ha! Awesome DV member dream! Hopefully that was a precog dream of me running off to finally make some progress on TotM or TotY. It's funny how unless conditions are just right, the mind can accept so many things that seem crazy. I didn't think twice when you showed up in that last one where you fired a howitzer. I used to get the occasional lucid fragment when you popped up but now I worry that I'm becoming even more gullible than before. Ha! I still need to get a stable LD that has a DV member in it. I've never actually done that yet.

Hmm, I can't help but wonder what it means that Wurlman's friend was "special", but I won't ask. LOL.

And thanks for the comments about my last lucids, I appreciate it! It's especially gratifying that the DEILD work is finally starting to get passable. I'm no ace yet, but even at my modest levels it is a hugely profitable tech. I'm still not sure whether what I experienced in #54 was a DEILD, but I'm beginning to think so. And without DEILD, I'd have missed the best part of #53 for sure! I'm really glad that I took the time to work on it even when it was kicking my ass. I knew it was worth it when I saw the way that you used it to grind out big successes even when the dream world was being a pain in the butt.

Spoiler for January Goals:

Goals for January:
-Have 10 lucid dreams this month
-Complete Basic Task of the Month
-Complete Advanced Task of the Month
-Complete at least one Task of the Year item
-Teleport to a new location by creating a portal
-Teleport to a new location by performing an in-dream WILD

Lucid dreams this month: 4

Thanks for the great info Canis.. I'm currently using Choline, and was using some Mugwort I picked myself but ran out... When its in season I'm planning on growing some Calea Zacatechichi, but until then I was thinking about trying Galantamine, its good to see your reports so I can get an idea for doses.

Lol at you two and your DV member dreams haha. I love it! I wonder if that would make a good TOTM. I remember doing something like that for Halloween. Maybe a valentine's one is in order for February, too risque?

Anyway, you're a lucid dreaming demon as always CL. I love how much you help people get lucid!