Thread: Art's Workbook

Art!! Congratulations on the LD!

Good observation on the timing of your lucids. Four hours could be about when your REM starts picking up. I might be reading too much into what you're saying, but it sounds like you haven't even really needed to use a WBTB for these last few.

I'm also bringing back more reality checks into my routine. I'd gotten out of the habit of doing them but still had lots of LDs. What I've noticed lately, though, is that I sometimes RC in-dream even though I don't have the habit IWL. Clearly it's still important to me, and I kinda worry that I'm running on the "fumes" of old habits. Reality checks are great tools and it's important that I don't forget what they feel like in waking life.

And good luck with classes!

waking up after a lucid can be a blessing in disguise. If one does not wake up, memory can be considerably less clear. In any case congrats!

Got another lucid last night!

-Before bed I had a glass of apple juice and 500 mcg of vitamin B12 (Ok, in hindsight that was stupid. But it didn't seem to adversely affect anything.)
-Woke up to pee at 4:00 am
-Fell asleep again between 4:30 and 5:00
-Had a lucid, woke up at 6:00 am

Not sure what triggered lucidity, there was no "Aha!" moment, nor any RCs. I think talking about LDing with Canis before bed helped. I also did my mantra when I was trying to fall asleep after I used the bathroom "I recognize when I'm dreaming, I remember my dreams, I do reality checks, I become lucid."

I feel like I'm not keeping up with this workbook, but other than successes I'm not quite sure what to put here, nothing in my methods has changed.

Overall I do feel like my recall is improving, my good night's sleep recall now is a lot better than my good night's sleep when I started keeping a DJ on here. However a bad night's sleep pretty much kills my recall. I need to work on getting something when that happens.

Congratulations again on this very awesome LD! Super happy for you.

I think that you had a lot of things going for you that helped. Talking about lucid dreaming right beforehand is huge. (Especially considering that this conversation got me lucid too!) The apple juice is usually great for recall and vividness (IMO because of its indirect aid in converting tryptophan to serotonin), and then on top of that, the whiz you had to take at 4 am was a lot like a WBTB.

The workbook's good for just sort of documenting what you're up to, any challenges you're facing, and sometimes to simply say, "Here's the huge success I had" or "Hey, I've been dry for a while. Here's what I'm currently doing. Any suggestions on what to change?" It's really free form, but anything that keeps a dialogue about your LD practices going is good.

I am a huge hypocrite here because I didn't update my workbook much in February. I am going to try to do better, though!

And if you solve the puzzle of how to get good recall out of a really bad night's sleep, you'll have to let me know. That usually ruins mine!

How long are your WBTBs usually? For a while I felt like I was never going back to sleep, luckily my "insomnia cruncher" thing worked alright once I shut my mind up. I was thinking that after an hour you were kinda screwed, but I guess not I was thinking that the WBTB might have been the deciding factor.

Cool, thanks for the ideas! I think I will try to do it at the least once a week.

Will do!

I usually stay up for exactly 30 minutes then crawl back into bed, going straight to MILD. LaBerge found that 30 minutes or more led to the greatest increase in lucid dreaming frequency. It sounded like going higher than 30 was good, too, but it's a bit hard for me to afford that. Ophelia pointed me to this cool study that LaBerge's team did on WBTB length: Wakefulness Makes Lucidity More Likely

Hey, what's your insomnia cruncher? Is this some sort of exercise device? I want one!

What a great article, thanks for the link! I think I might try some more WBTBs then, especially since it is now spring break. (Woot!) I will try one hour for a few nights, if I can't go back to sleep then I will try 30 minutes.

Stupid name, just the thing I do when I want to go to sleep or I'm having trouble falling asleep (Much easier to type "insomnia crusher" than "the thing I do when I can't sleep"). Wouldn't surprise me if most people already did this, but I discovered it when I had horrible insomnia and it's surprisingly effective for me. I just quiet my thoughts and at first create random images, then when they become more frequent and start coming by themselves I just watch them. Don't really focus, just let them morph into one another and flash across my vision. Next thing I know I'm waking up

Cool! You were wondering what to put in your workbook? Well, your WBTB experiments are the perfect sort of thing to record. That data will come in very handy for you later. It's interesting how many patterns you can only tease out after looking back over a few days or weeks of records. It'll be useful for me as well, since I haven't had the guts to intentionally go a lot higher than 30 minutes, but Ophelia and Paigey do more like 1.5-2 hours with great success. Others just do a few minutes.

Hey, I like your insomnia crusher/cruncher/destroyer. That sounds like a lot more fun than what I do (backwards counting w/ breathing and a mantra.) Mine basically bores me into submission.

WBTB experiments so far (have been miserable failures so far)

Sunday:
11:30 - Bed
3:15 - Wake up to pee
Do mantra, visualization (of becoming lucid in my past dreams), read DJs, mantra again
4:15 - try to fall asleep again, have trouble (I think because of reading the DJs on my phone. Won't do that again.)
4:45 - fall asleep again
10:30 - Wake up

Monday:
Bed - 2:00?
Yeah. Didn't even try.

Tuesday:
Bed - 12:00
Alarm - 4:30
Did mantra for maybe 15 minutes, fell back asleep

Wednesday:
Don't even remember the alarm going off.

So I guess it could potentially work if my sleep was better. I'm exhausted and my recall has been sucking. Still, my husband gets up around 4:30 or 5:00 so I may as well keep trying.

I know that it doesn't feel like it, but there are a lot of good signs in these results. First of all, the fact that you were for the most part able to get back to sleep is a very good sign. This was the primary point of concern (or at least it's what I was most concerned you'd struggle with), so this is good.

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

4:15 - try to fall asleep again, have trouble (I think because of reading the DJs on my phone. Won't do that again.)

You're right on that the high levels of blue light from a screen won't do your sleep cycle any favors. I like to hit up DV on my Kindle Fire sometimes during WBTB. I get around the blue light problem by wearing a $7 pair of orange safety glasses that block out light in the offending wavelengths. Imagine how cool you would look wearing a pair of these babies:



The only downside to wearing these ultra-cool glasses is that they send my sex appeal into the stratosphere. The world will simply have to deal with that.

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

Monday:
Bed - 2:00?
Yeah. Didn't even try.

This is the right call. (IMO.) I was way, way short on sleep when I went to bed last night and I just cruised right through my WBTB. I don't use an alarm for mine, so my body just kind of naturally takes care of this. When you're too exhausted, skip it without any feelings of guilt.

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

So I guess it could potentially work if my sleep was better. I'm exhausted and my recall has been sucking. Still, my husband gets up around 4:30 or 5:00 so I may as well keep trying.

If your schedule allows you to sleep until later in the morning, 4:30-5:00 could be a great WBTB time! Your husband's schedule may work very well for you then.

With your husband awake to appreciate your look, that's even more reason to wear those super-cool glasses at WBTB!

Last night I took 200 mg of B6 and did a WBTB from 5:30-6:00 am.

Didn't work, and my recall was pretty much 0. Maybe in a few days. There might be a link, though I don't know why it would be doing this. My recall has been epicly sucking since I started taking an antibiotic. I've also been taking cinnamon and alpha lipoic acid, but at least the last one hasn't seemed to be doing anything.

Should be done with all three within the week.

Ahh, bummer about your recall! You had such great luck with B6 the last time that even though I know not to believe in magic pills/potions, I kinda had this feeling like it'd be an ultra-reliable lucidity trigger for you. Hey, did you happen to eat any carbs before bed? I seem to have the best luck when I do that (and there are some physiological reasons why this may help), but it's certainly no hard-and-fast rule that you have to do it. There are several ways in which B6 could potentially participate in dreaming, and carbs help with one of those pathways. (The tryptophan -> serotonin pathway.)

I'm glad to hear that the WBTB went pretty smoothly. It seems like a solid 30-minute WBTB isn't presenting you nearly the kind of trouble it did in the past. You've got that earlier sleep schedule going now, and with the time change, it's still super dark outside at 6 AM, which I find really helps.

BTW, I know that you were coming off of an all-nighter before that. Maybe you just really, really needed huge chunks of deep sleep last night. If you get another good night's sleep tonight, maybe your body will do some REM catch-up.

I had B12 last time (bad, I know). No carbs last night, my stomach has been kind of bugging me so I thought it would be better if I didn't. In a few days I want to do it all right though!

Yeah, it's really great! Still gives me a lot of time to fall back asleep. I just keep my sleep mask on which really helps, but I think I need to sit up or something because I'm pretty sure I was going in and out.

Yes, that gives me hope! My recall hasn't been this bad for a long time, and it's a bit depressing. It'll go back though!

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

I had B12 last time (bad, I know). No carbs last night, my stomach has been kind of bugging me so I thought it would be better if I didn't. In a few days I want to do it all right though!

I don't know if there's any other reason you're worried about taking B12, but I have read that it can increase levels of histamine. Apparently, this can do positive things for dream control. I have not played with this myself at all, but those are some vague ideas I've been exposed to.

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

Yeah, it's really great! Still gives me a lot of time to fall back asleep. I just keep my sleep mask on which really helps, but I think I need to sit up or something because I'm pretty sure I was going in and out.

Yes, that gives me hope! My recall hasn't been this bad for a long time, and it's a bit depressing. It'll go back though!

Ah cool! Glad that's working for you. I like that you're just sort of gently moving toward what works for you without risking insomnia too much. Since you've tussled with insomnia from time to time, playing it safe like this seems like exactly the right way to go.

And yes, your dream recall will definitely be back. Your recall is usually world-class, so I know that it makes zero recall nights a little harder to bear. When those dreams come rushing back, just remember to realize that you're dreaming. I'll try very hard to drop you an in-dream VM to this effect.

You seem to be doing well Art, and more to come im sure.
I would just say, wbtb can be tricky, and making it a part of your sleeping habits can be a chore. Finding the end of your deep sleep cycle is important to calculate when your chances are the best. Usually it goes for about 4-5 hours and your chances are much higher after that. After a while of using the alarm, you may even begin waking up at the time naturally and with little effort. As long as its a consistent habit, the body typically has no problem working it out.
It took me a while to learn wbtb on a consistent basis, but its a very effective way of improving your dream experience.
Keep it up, and more dreams will come

-Took 200mg of B6 with a glass of apple juice
-Went to bed around 12:00 I think, a bit earlier than usual
-Became lucid a few times in the early night, but felt really tired and not all there, so I let each one go. (Take advantage! Gah!)
-Woke up at 5:30 for my WBTB, feeling much more awake than I usually do
-Husband didn't leave for work until 6:20, I usually try for 6:00 to go to sleep
-Tried to sleep until 7:30, no luck

I think part of the problem was going to bed earlier than usual, so I had more sleep than usual, so I wasn't tired enough to fall back asleep. Staying awake longer than I was planning also didn't help.

The reason I'm doing my WBTB so late is because I'm worried that if I do it earlier, I will get a lucid and have my husband wake me up either by doing morning stuff or saying goodbye. I would be totally pissed if he woke me up from a lucid.

But now I missed out on lucid fun, had poor dream recall, I'm freaking tired, and I have a biology test today. This sucks.

Wow! I know that you feel disappointed about the experiences that you missed out on but this sounds like a really big night for you! When we're going for lucids, there are two goals in mind: first, of course, is to have a hell of a lot of fun. But the second thing that we're doing is learning and practicing for the future. And it sounds like you did a ton of that last night.

Before anything else, we can't let this go by uncelebrated: you became lucid multiple times in one night, all before you even hit your WBTB! This is a huge accomplishment! The level of potential this hints at is incredibly exciting. I've only become lucid a handful of times pre-WBTB, and definitely never had multiple incidents of lucidity that early in the night. Good!!

Did you get any sense of what time you started hitting all of those lucids? This could be good to know for the future in planning your bedtime or WBTB time (if you use alarms for that...?)

The fact that you intentionally let these lucids go is really interesting. I've only let lucidity go a couple of times that I can remember, both out of fear. How would you describe your state of mind? Just mentally exhausted? Almost as if you were too sleepy to go on? I'll think about this problem some more and try to come up with a few ideas. It's an interesting situation.

Anyway, even though I know this wasn't the most fun night, you have learned a ton about yourself. The fact that you're capable of hitting multiple LDs in a night like that is crazy exciting! Last night was just one night. Now that you realize what you're capable of, think of what this means for the thousands and thousands of nights still ahead of you.

You know what? That is a great way to look at it and I should stop being all mopey. I have never had multiple lucids in a night, so that is an accomplishment!

I'm guessing it was 2-3 am, but really no idea since I don't recall waking up afterwards. 4 at the very latest. I don't think any of them were triggered by recognition or anything I did, it's just like my brain wanted to become lucid no matter how I felt about it. I wonder what the exact recipe for that is!

My state of mind. Mostly really tired. You know how you reach that level in tiredness where even doing something fun is a pain? Like that. And waking up in the middle of a lake, on a place where my paws could slip off... work. The whole feeling was more "Gahhh I'm awake" rather than "Woohoo! I'm lucid, baby!"

You are an awesome encouragement! Thanks

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

You know what? That is a great way to look at it and I should stop being all mopey. I have never had multiple lucids in a night, so that is an accomplishment!

I'm guessing it was 2-3 am, but really no idea since I don't recall waking up afterwards. 4 at the very latest. I don't think any of them were triggered by recognition or anything I did, it's just like my brain wanted to become lucid no matter how I felt about it. I wonder what the exact recipe for that is!

Yeah, you should be super proud of this! I certainly am. Four lucids in one night, all without the WBTB... I can't tell you how excited this gets me.

I would love to know what it takes to make my brain just want to become lucid like that. This is, I think, the end goal that every aspiring lucid dreamer hopes is possible. Where most dreams become DILDs, simply because it's what your brain knows to do. That would be so amazing! I love that you got a taste of that.

One thing's for sure. This Tuesday I'm going for apple juice + 200mg B-6.

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

My state of mind. Mostly really tired. You know how you reach that level in tiredness where even doing something fun is a pain? Like that. And waking up in the middle of a lake, on a place where my paws could slip off... work. The whole feeling was more "Gahhh I'm awake" rather than "Woohoo! I'm lucid, baby!"

You are an awesome encouragement! Thanks

That's interesting, and yeah, the description makes sense. One thing that comes to mind is that in the early stages of sleep, adenosine levels are still really high. From a high level, adenosine is what builds up in our brains throughout the day and makes us feel irresistibly sleepy. (Caffeine makes you feel alert in part because it is an adenosine antagonist.) So maybe this feeling of high adenosine levels bleeds into early dreams? Since you've never experienced this during your post-WBTB lucids, you may only hit it in these really early dreams.

And thanks, I'm so glad to help in any way that I can! And "encouraged" only begins to describe how I feel reading all this and thinking about the possibility of hitting 4 pre-WBTB DILDs!

Had a glass of apple juice and 200 mg of vitamin B6 last night around 11:00. Was planning on doing a WBTB, but couldn't fall asleep until 2:30 so I turned off the alarm.

Don't remember dream, don't remember waking up or resetting my alarm, don't remember waking up after the second alarm.

Going to try to catch up on sleep more before I do anything, too damn tired to experiment more.

Ouch, sorry about the mini-insomnia! Yeah, I think you're doing the right thing. It's probably best to save the serious experimenting for when you're more caught up on your rest. My results tend to be really rocky if I'm dealing with lots of fatigue. I paid for my LD last night with a bit of insomnia, so similar to you I'm not going to attempt any meaningful WBTB or any other serious induction. Just a bit of MILD and hope to catch something. But mostly, just sleep.

The unfortunate thing for you is that your insomnia probably messed up your supplement strategy quite directly. After nearly 4 hours, you've lost a lot of the benefit of taking the B6+apple juice "NewArtemis Special". One of the effects you're going for is elevated tryptophan in the brain and then easier conversion of that tryptophan to serotonin thanks to the B6. That should mean lots of serotonin and deep sleep in the early part of the night, then REM rebound in the morning. But if sleep comes much later after you take the AJ + B6, the effect is probably greatly diminished.

Just catch up on that sleep and get back to it when you're rested! I know I'll be following that plan tonight.

Pulled an unintentional all-nighter on Sunday, so yesterday I went to bed at about 5:30 pm. Woke up this morning at 5:30, could have slept longer if I didn't hear the alarm. Did SSILD and mantra, but couldn't go back to sleep. Going to try and keep doing backwards memory thing at night (which is great anyways cause my memory sucks), and SSILD and mantra during WBTB or any time I wake up in the night.

I imagine I'll be hitting REM rebound tomorrow and I hope for a lucid

Sounds like a good plan! I'm really glad you got caught up on sleep. Since you had slept for 12 hours, it's not a complete surprise that you had trouble pulling off a "WBTB". If you have any trouble with insomnia during SSILD in the future, there are a lot of tweaks to cycle length, number of cycles, etc. that we can do to help avoid that.

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

I imagine I'll be hitting REM rebound tomorrow and I hope for a lucid

Hell yes to both of these. We've seen you on REM rebound and it's pretty awesome. Looking forward to reading that lucid!

Good luck! GO get lucid! Whoooo!