Thread: Proofs and Dis-Proofs of God's existance

Ok- Evidently it's very difficult for you to try and think outside the box. But I'm asking you to lower your ego for a quick second and agree with me that there is no way to "technically" , (meaning with tangible evidence) prove that God exists! God isn't an object you can prove with substantial evidence of it's existance. If that was the case, everyone would follow one god and there would be no argument in the first place. You've got to search in order to find Him. There's no concrete evidence of whether or not He exists. And then after several moments of intense searching, you just know. It all makes sense. I'm not telling you what to believe, I'm just trying to let you understand where I'm coming from, just as you are proclaiming no god to me. ....... By the way, an atheist is one who does not worship a god for the simple fact of uncertainty, that's not to say he/she doesn't believe that god exists*

Originally posted by bigunit224
But I'm asking you to lower your ego for a quick second and agree with me that there is no way to \"technically\" , (meaning with tangible evidence) prove that God exists! God isn't an object you can prove with substantial evidence of it's existance.

That's all fine and dandy. I agree that there is no way to prove God's existence, which is why I'm an atheist. How you can ignore the lack of evidence and believe anyways is beyond me.

I was only taking issue with the statement, "Don't try to figure it out.". Lack of critical thinking is how we got into this "religion" garbage in the first place.

"I agree that there is no way to prove God's existence, which is why I'm an atheist"

Ok so I'm glad we finally agree on something. It's just a shame to find people who need literal proof that something existed/exists. I believe you are a very scientific being and very knowledgeable in the area of natural sciences, which is why I can also understand how difficult it must be for you to rely on something such as faith in God. Now I'm sure you've heard it before but let me just refresh your memory: Faith in God deals in "seeing without believing". It's the underlying purpose and model that keeps religion alive. It's what seperates believers from non-believers. You've got to put forth an effort in order to find God. God doesn't come to people. I believe we are created on earth for one ultimate misson and that is to find God. Do the facts on paper really portray that God exists? Of Course not. You've got to sincerely show you want to see God and then trust me Bradybaker, when that day comes you will understand. It's not something that can be explained and I really wish it was explainable. Us arguing back and forth over proof of the existance of God obviously isn't going to get us anywhere. But it's been good banter and I look forward to hearing about more ideals you have.
Matt[/quote]

Originally posted by bigunit224+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigunit224)</div>

It's just a shame to find people who need literal proof that something existed/exists.[/b]

It's a shame to find people who need an ancient father figure to comfort them. And who blindly believe in such an entity when there is clearly no more evidence for it than for unicorns and sasquatches.

Originally posted by bigunit224+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigunit224)</div>

You've got to put forth an effort in order to find God. God doesn't come to people. I believe we are created on earth for one ultimate misson and that is to find God.[/b]

Aw, that sucks. If he's as nice of a guy as people say, you'd think he'd come down and introduce himself or something? There's a cold beer in my fridge for him if he ever decides to drop in for a visit. (Canadian beer!)

Originally posted by bigunit224
Do the facts on paper really portray that God exists? Of Course not.

Then how can you justify such a belief and know that you aren't just decieving yourself?

<!--QuoteBegin-bigunit224@
You've got to sincerely show you want to see God and then trust me Bradybaker, when that day comes you will understand. It's not something that can be explained and I really wish it was explainable.

Classic.

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But it's been good banter and I look forward to hearing about more ideals you have.

Same.

Originally posted by spoon
And since your christianity implies a disbelief in all other gods but yahweh (monotheism and all) - what makes all other gods falsifiable?

I don't consider myself to be Christians anymore, tough I was raised Christian. As I understand it, Christianity make no attempt to disprove the existence of other Gods. Rather, it asserts that the Christian god is the one true god, the God of gods (king of kings).

I really don't want to get into this debate too much as it kind of has no point. Supposing you could absolutely know if there was or was not a god, you would be in no better or worse position than you are now.

I will say this, the lack of proof for the existence of God alone is not substantial evidence for the non-existence of God (credit to whoever originally said something along those lines... I forget at the moment) This is merely another side of the same coin. (There is a lack of proof that God does not exist; therefore God exists. There is a lack of proof that God exists; therefore, God does not exist) Both are fetters.

Some would argue that this "I don't knowism" is weak; however, I would argue that knowing you don't know, that is the beginning of real knowledge. Knowing you know this, and knowing you don't know that; that is what true knowledge and wisdom are. Saying you know this, when you don't know this, that is an unfortunate deception and fetter. (credit to Confucius and all philosophers throughout history who have placed this level of knowledge as one of the highest levels to be attained)

Since the burden of proof is on theists to prove that God does exist, I still wait for that proof.

Furthermore, even a rudimentary examination of nature shows us that God either doesn't interfere with the universe's natural progress, or that he is, in fact, an idiot.

So no, God definetly does not exist.

Originally posted by dream&#045;scape



I will say this, the lack of proof for the existence of God alone is not substantial evidence for the non-existence of God (credit to whoever originally said something along those lines... I forget at the moment) This is merely another side of the same coin. (There is a lack of proof that God does not exist; therefore God exists. There is a lack of proof that God exists; therefore, God does not exist) Both are fetters.

Bzzzzzzzzzt, wrong. This coin is rigged, seeing as I could replace the word "God" with any other word in that sentence, and it would make sense to only prove that he DOES exist. In other words, prove to me that *I* am not God. You can't? Therefore I am God. Now that doesn't make any sense, right?

Frankly, I'm amazed that I have to explain something that basic.

Originally posted by Wicked
In other words, prove to me that *I* am not God. You can't? Therefore I am God. Now that doesn't make any sense, right?

That is exactly what I was saying. The lack of evidence that you are not God is not sufficient evidence that you are God. Equally, the lack of evidence that you are God is not sufficient evidence that you are not God. Both assertions (God does not exist because there is no evidence that he does, and God does exist because there is no evidence that he does not) are in themselves fetters. Please try comprehending before opening your mouth so quickly.

Originally posted by dream&#045;scape
Equally, the lack of evidence that you are God is not sufficient evidence that you are not God. Both assertions (God does not exist because there is no evidence that he does, and God does exist because there is no evidence that he does not) are in themselves fetters.

Very true. That isn't the issue. The issue is: what gives someone the right to jump to the outrageous and unsupported position that "God does exist"? And from there proceed to attribute various qualitites and personality traits to the hypothetical entity. As well as invent and support a record of the entities actions, develop a societal structure based on organized faith (ie. "I should be king because God says so."), start wars based on the hypothetical entity, burn thousands of woman and scholars alive and annoy the masses with televangelists.

Path of the Theist:
Doesn't believe in God --> Decides to believe --> Believes in God --> Unfortunate Consequences

Path of the Atheist:
Doesn't believe in God ---> Forced Exposure to Unfortunate Consequences

Notice how this is similar to "Invisiblepinkunicornism"

Path of the Invisiblepinkunicornist:
Doesn't belieng in unicorn --> Decides to believe --> Believes in unicorn --> Consequences may vary

Path of the Ainvisiblepinkunicornist:
Doesn't believe in unicorn --> Forced exposure to varied consequences

[quote]

That is exactly what I was saying. The lack of evidence that you are not God is not sufficient evidence that you are God.[quote]

That's correct.

Equally, the lack of evidence that you are God is not sufficient evidence that you are not God.

Well, you're right... but there are more than enough evidence that put the perspective of God's existance in serious quesetion.

But you have to admit that chances are that I am not God. Similarly, odds are that God doesn't exist (that's BEFORE factoring the aforementioned evidence).

Both assertions (God does not exist because there is no evidence that he does, and God does exist because there is no evidence that he does not) are in themselves fetters. Please try comprehending before opening your mouth so quickly.

If there was something here that I did not comprehend, I'm not aware of such thing, nor was I claiming that lack of evidence is evidence in itself.

Originally posted by bradybaker
Very true. That isn't the issue. The issue is: what gives someone the right to jump to the outrageous and unsupported position that \"God does exist\"?

Ah, but it is the issue. It is the very core of the issue. It is the position many theists will take, and also the position many atheists will take. The same questioned of a theist, they in turn ask of an atheist (in this example, "what give you the right to jump to the unsupported conclusion that God does not exist?")

It sums up the whole of the issue, and is reason enough why it should not even be an issue in the first place.

You were supposed to read the rest too.

Also, the default state of ANYTHING is nonexistance.

Originally posted by Wicked
Also, the default state of ANYTHING is nonexistance.

This is somewhat of a different topic, but existence non-existence; being non-being; etc... these are all notions of the mind. They are not reality.

Originally posted by bradybaker
You were supposed to read the rest too.

I did, and it required no reply from me. Not everything does. I replied to all that needed to be replied to: what you stated the issue being.

...

But the rest of the post was the justification for and the very point of my statement...suit yourself though.

A Christian once remarked that you have to know everything to logically conclude that there is no God. Little did he know that it applies to the opposite.

A minister told me that the proof of God is the physical manifestations we see everywhere. He assumed that everything needs to be created and have a creator, so that pointed to God for him. I understood his view, but I was not satisfied for it being "proof."

The problem is, everybody defines proofs in different ways. The debate has been raging on for milleniums, what makes you think we have solid proof for either right now?

Another problem with the argument is that God (to believers) is invisible, and unmanifested reality. Anything, even supernatural events, will be dismissed as explainable by the skeptic or atheist. It's a useless argument.

I have to agree with AirRick on this one. We're fighting an endless battle. You guys can chase your tales as long as you want for all I care, but let me leave you "non-believers" with a thought concept:

You can search the entire earth for things that will make you happy, secure, comfortable, at ease, whatever it is you wish for. Many people think they can find these escapes in alcohol, weed, heroin, lying, stealing, traveling, sports, sex, music, the yearn for more scientific evidence to denounceGod.. etc.. I've searched many of those myself through time. But they all become bland at some point or another. It's never as good as the first time you did it. Correct me if I'm wrong but the first hit of weed is never the same, your fist lay is never as good, the rush you get out of hustlin somebody leaves you eventually, the first homerun is never as good as the last. The one constant in my living life has always been God. He gets me through tough times and has helped make me what I am today. I've been through a lotta things in my life that couldn't turned out real bad, but I swear on my life when I say this: If you honestly look to God for advice, he will lead your way in life one step at a time and help make that shithole you live in a little bit better. Life's a journey and no one ever promised it was gonna be easy. If life was easy we could just call it heaven, but we're not quite there yet. Like i said earlier, if we were supposed to know all the answers we would but there's just no tangible evidence that God exists. There's scientists who dedicate their entire lives toward finding logical, physical evidence that God is a non-existant, (one of those I believe to be Bradybaker) and they grow up to become old bitter men who never really find what satisifies them because their looking in the wrong places. I know this isn't a heavily populated theist site but I bet a lot of you meditate on here. Humor me. The next time you sit down to meditate, throw God in the meditation and thank Him for the day you've been given.
That's all I've got for now- didn't mean to rant but it felt needed. Thanks-

Bigunit, you don't need an imaginary friend named God to be happy.

But you have to admit that chances are that I am not God. Similarly, odds are that God doesn't exist (that's BEFORE factoring the aforementioned evidence).[/b]

You can't even talk about probabilities with something so abstract and complex as this, if probabilities are even meaningful in the first place.

Back to Bigunit. There is nothing your god has done for you that an imaginary friend couldn't, even you must admit this. The only difference between your god and my imaginary friend Susan is that I'm not convinced Susan is real. If I brainwashed myself into believing Susan was real and could give me strength and support when I needed it, then Susan would have the same effects upon me as your god. There may be a god out there, and you may even be correct in believing in him, but as far as you're concerned he's basically an imaginary friend.

P.S. I do not have an imaginary friend named Susan

Originally posted by bigunit224+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigunit224)</div>

There's scientists who dedicate their entire lives toward finding logical, physical evidence that God is a non-existant, (one of those I believe to be Bradybaker) and they grow up to become old bitter men who never really find what satisifies them because their looking in the wrong places.[/b]

Ouch. Endless curiousity is all I need.

EDIT: I don't actually spend my life finding logical, physical evidence that God is non-existant. It's more of a hobby than anything else. Though I must admit, agitating theists pleases me.

<!--QuoteBegin-Belisarius
There is nothing your god has done for you that an imaginary friend couldn't, even you must admit this. The only difference between your god and my imaginary friend Susan is that I'm not convinced Susan is real. If I brainwashed myself into believing Susan was real and could give me strength and support when I needed it, then Susan would have the same effects upon me as your god. There may be a god out there, and you may even be correct in believing in him, but as far as you're concerned he's basically an imaginary friend.

Very well said.

Belisarius, I really hope you don't think God is nothing more than an imaginery friend. And It's a shame you've got to pull jokes out on a debate like this. I think that a man's life who lived over 2000 years ago and is still gaining more acclaim now than ever deserves to be called something a little bit more than an imaginery friend. And if you want actual examples of how He has affected my life I'd be more than happy to dispense them to you. But I can't really see you taking me serious, so I'll refrain for now. But answer me this, when was the last time you were truly content? What part of your life? What were you doing?

I think that a man's life who lived over 2000 years ago and is still gaining more acclaim now than ever deserves to be called something a little bit more than an imaginery friend.[/b]

Achilles' life just recently gained more acclaim (through the release of the movie troy) than ever. Does this make him more than an imaginary character in a ancient epic poem?

-spoon

Originally posted by bigunit224
I have to agree with AirRick on this one. We're fighting an endless battle. You guys can chase your tales as long as you want for all I care, but let me leave you \"non-believers\" with a thought concept:

You can search the entire earth for things that will make you happy, secure, comfortable, at ease, whatever it is you wish for. Many people think they can find these escapes in alcohol, weed, heroin, lying, stealing, traveling, sports, sex, music, the yearn for more scientific evidence to denounceGod.. etc.. I've searched many of those myself through time. But they all become bland at some point or another. It's never as good as the first time you did it. Correct me if I'm wrong but the first hit of weed is never the same, your fist lay is never as good, the rush you get out of hustlin somebody leaves you eventually, the first homerun is never as good as the last. The one constant in my living life has always been God. He gets me through tough times and has helped make me what I am today. I've been through a lotta things in my life that couldn't turned out real bad, but I swear on my life when I say this: If you honestly look to God for advice, he will lead your way in life one step at a time and help make that shithole you live in a little bit better. Life's a journey and no one ever promised it was gonna be easy. If life was easy we could just call it heaven, but we're not quite there yet. Like i said earlier, if we were supposed to know all the answers we would but there's just no tangible evidence that God exists. There's scientists who dedicate their entire lives toward finding logical, physical evidence that God is a non-existant, (one of those I believe to be Bradybaker) and they grow up to become old bitter men who never really find what satisifies them because their looking in the wrong places. I know this isn't a heavily populated theist site but I bet a lot of you meditate on here. Humor me. The next time you sit down to meditate, throw God in the meditation and thank Him for the day you've been given.
That's all I've got for now- didn't mean to rant but it felt needed. Thanks-

Well, that's why there are people who are SECURE out there, who do not need to delude themselves with petty consolations since they believe in THEMSELVES, and their own ability to prevail.

Oh, and no scientist has never, ever dedicated his life to disproving God's existance to science, God is nothing more than a redundant term.

Originally posted by Dream&#045;scape
This is somewhat of a different topic, but existence non-existence; being non-being; etc... these are all notions of the mind. They are not reality.

Since there IS an objective reality that exists outside our heads (or at least we must assume so, otherwise there is no sense in arguing), I'm afraid you are wrong on this one.

Originally posted by bradybaker
Though I must admit, agitating theists pleases me.

And that is why you are a sad sad man.