Thread: Start with Nothing

Originally Posted by Xei

Why did you remove the rest of his post? You're at troll level now,

It was to be specific. Look at what you're saying and where it leads. The rest of that post was extraneous; i.e. it makes no difference to the point.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

The world itself = physical reality.

What we know of the world = subjective experience, ideas thoughts etc.

Therefore, "What we know of the world" also = concept of the world being only physical.

And, if you see my earlier post on defining the "objective", that statement could mean a couple things, mainly:

1. What we know is all conceptual and this is an objective statement about the subjective.
2. What we know "objectively" is all conceptual and this is the limit of the objective world; resting in subjective knowledge.

Xaq and Really, both of you seem to be confusing "what we know of the world" with the actual world. Obviously there was a world (a universe) before we were here to observe it - we are a part of it. Our physical bodies are just as real as the planets and stars.

To believe that "your ideas of what the world might be" is somehow just as real as that physical reality is solopsism.

I'm sorry but you're not getting any of this... I think because all of us have strong views it may seem that nobody is learning from each other, plus semantic issues. You seem to keep missing that while I have a different world view, I am also not strictly disagreeing with you; it goes without saying that I understand your entire point. Haven't you seen me elaborate on this?! And why haven't you just simply answered the questions put forth about the central issue of subjectivity?

The subjective world is not merely "experience, ideas thoughts", it is knowledge and awareness too. I want you to name a reality that exists independent of knowledge! It is impossible because if you had no knowledge, nothing would exist. You can also speculate about what it is like to be dead, but you are not dead either. All mind games. Even as you write about an independent objective world, it has flourished from an infinite number of factors that are inside your subjective, pure knowledge. A reality that was "before we existed" (as if we didn't know it) was fundamentally not a reality, but an idea about no other reality than this one.

So while the method for understanding the objective world is reliable, it is only small fraction of what is really true, and only true because coincides with the most fundamental of all.