Thread: The problem of heaven.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

All I've got from you has been translated as being effectively this:

1. You lose an aspect of yourself in order to exist for all eternity.
2. In return, you get to sit around in awe of some deity, having to worship him for all eternity.

In Heaven, nothing needs to be said or done, there is no time or place, no error and no thought.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Now, come on. All that heaven is, is but a fantasy to comfort those who are fearful of their own mortality.

Is it a flaw that Heaven would comfort "anyone"?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

If heaven really was such a great place,

Heaven isn't a place.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

there'd be no point in staying alive now, would there?

No, it is simply just beyond ordinary living. Eternal living. Death/life is therefore irrelevant.

Originally Posted by really

[/list]In Heaven, nothing needs to be said or done, there is no time or place, no error and no thought.

That sounds dreadfully dull. Really...

Originally Posted by really

Is it a flaw that Heaven would comfort "anyone"?

When it means everyone loses essentially what makes them individuals and are subsequently forced to exist for eternity in what is practically an eternal high... yes, it is a flaw, because it is a human concept,

Originally Posted by really

Heaven isn't a place.

Then it is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by really

No, it is simply just beyond ordinary living. Eternal living. Death/life is therefore irrelevant.

Eternal life is in itself a paradox, without death how does one distinguish life? Without awareness, how does one distinguish self? When one is missing from these, neither exist.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

That sounds dreadfully dull. Really...

To the ego, yes. But the ego literally has no idea.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

When it means everyone loses essentially what makes them individuals and are subsequently forced to exist for eternity in what is practically an eternal high... yes, it is a flaw, because it is a human concept,

It's not. Although it is almost impossible to communicate, it does not mean it's essence was invented.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Then it is irrelevant.

Why? Is happiness irrelevant? Is Truth irrelevant?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Eternal life is in itself a paradox, without death how does one distinguish life?

By living eternally, as pure Awareness (All Is Known).

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Without awareness, how does one distinguish self?

Without awareness, nothing exists.

Originally Posted by really

To the ego, yes. But the ego literally has no idea.

You talk as if the ego was a bad thing. Which, in fact is not.

Originally Posted by really

It's not. Although it is almost impossible to communicate, it does not mean it's essence was invented.

O RLY? So the fact that humans created religion and created a vast swathe of different beliefs can be completely disregarded because you happen to think your belief is correct?

Originally Posted by really

Why? Is happiness irrelevant? Is Truth irrelevant?

Happiness is not irrelevant as it can be achieved here on Earth. Absolute Truth and Heaven are irrelevant though (as neither exist).

Originally Posted by really

By living eternally, as pure Awareness (All Is Known).

If all is known, there is no point in existing, as how is one to further their own enlightenment?

Heaven doesn't involve concepts like sad songs. Its a metaphor for the womb.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

If all is known, there is no point in existing, as how is one to further their own enlightenment?

I think that if you were 100% enlightened, you would not want to further your own enlightenment at all, you'd be happy with it, and you'd be in heaven.

Originally Posted by Schmaven

I think that if you were 100% enlightened, you would not want to further your own enlightenment at all, you'd be happy with it, and you'd be in heaven.

But why should such a moment drag on for all eternity? What is the point in having such an experience if you are going to be stuck in such a state with no escape, no change, nothing to provide that sense of achievement that you suddenly know what everything is about. Becoming fully enlightened shouldn't mean you lose the ability to choose your fate, to be stuck in an existence from which there is no escape from.

The problem is the addition of eternity to a lot of these ideas of heaven. Eternal life is nothing but a greedy fantasy.

Having infinite possibilities goes quite well with having an eternity in which to do them in my oppinion

Originally Posted by Schmaven

Having infinite possibilities goes quite well with having an eternity in which to do them in my oppinion

Yeah, also TOTAL FREEDOM! you can go anywhere, anytime. No time in this place....is it real? heaven? who knows, i hope so. I'll be damned if lifes just this and if you live or die and you get nomore tries. Such a downer attitude. Like when i used to say "lifes a mistake, we should all do nothing and don't give a crap about anyone".
You can also visit the other planes if i am not mistaken? of course you can say "why is this heaven real and not mine?", which i'll just say because i believe in this one, it makes more sense.

Everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die

Originally Posted by Sandform

Everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die

That's because we don't know if heaven is real or brain related.

Originally Posted by Schmaven

Having infinite possibilities goes quite well with having an eternity in which to do them in my oppinion

Again, boring and boring... as I've been so hard trying to put out, what is the point of such an existence? Something that is perfect can't be improved on, and all that infinite possibility is essentially pointless when you have an eternity to do anything. This nothing but a greedy fantasy for those who don't understand the implications of eternity and have yet to accept their own mortality.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Yeah, also TOTAL FREEDOM! you can go anywhere, anytime. No time in this place....is it real? heaven? who knows, i hope so. I'll be damned if lifes just this and if you live or die and you get nomore tries. Such a downer attitude. Like when i used to say "lifes a mistake, we should all do nothing and don't give a crap about anyone".
You can also visit the other planes if i am not mistaken? of course you can say "why is this heaven real and not mine?", which i'll just say because i believe in this one, it makes more sense.

Total freedom? How is being forced to exist for an eternity total freedom? Also, if this life is the only chance we get, then that makes it so much more precious. It isn't a downer attitude, it's actually accepting your own mortality. Knowing that this is the one and only chance I've got, then surely I'm gonna do the best I can to make the most of it. It is because we have a finite time and are limited by reality that we derive purpose, a meaning to our existence. We may be born without a purpose, but as humans, we give ourselves a purpose, we give our lives meaning. An eternal existence has no meaning, no purpose, and is effectively the worst thing that can happen to a sentient being.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Something that is perfect can't be improved on, and all that infinite possibility is essentially pointless when you have an eternity to do anything. This nothing but a greedy fantasy for those who don't understand the implications of eternity and have yet to accept their own mortality.

That's an interesting way to look at eternity. I suppose it's the only way we could experience it as humans, but when we die, we will shed our human bodies, right? (We have to assume this since no one will ever really be able to come back and verify it... ) With only a spirit, we would be on an entirely different plane: one separate from time, space, and limit. The entire "eternity" that we imagine might seem like one second of the most beautiful, blissful warmth, while to another it might be an hour listening to the echoing music of the universe.

Really, no one can image heaven or eternity, because it is a place beyond existence. Assuming infinite possibilities isn't greedy, it's simply the best we mortals can do.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

How is being forced to exist for an eternity total freedom? Also, if this life is the only chance we get, then that makes it so much more precious. It isn't a downer attitude, it's actually accepting your own mortality. Knowing that this is the one and only chance I've got, then surely I'm gonna do the best I can to make the most of it. It is because we have a finite time and are limited by reality that we derive purpose, a meaning to our existence. We may be born without a purpose, but as humans, we give ourselves a purpose, we give our lives meaning. An eternal existence has no meaning, no purpose, and is effectively the worst thing that can happen to a sentient being.

I don't think the concept of eternity makes life less precious like you said. Our life that we live here in this world is beautiful in it's mortality, as heaven will be in it's immortality.

"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more." The line is said by Macbeth in Shakespeare's great work (sure you already knew ) and is meant to reflect his Nihilistic outlook. However, the audience sees not just a pointless hour of struggle and failure, but a captivating escapade through guilt, revenge, and - your fav - mortality. Over 400 years now, the great play has lasted.

Our lives are just the same. There is triumph; there is anguish; there is strife.

Heaven doesn't outweigh or undermine our physical reality, but compliments it.

To balance the toils of life with bliss.

Well that's my say. :3

Originally Posted by bcomp

That's an interesting way to look at eternity. I suppose it's the only way we could experience it as humans, but when we die, we will shed our human bodies, right? (We have to assume this since no one will ever really be able to come back and verify it... ) With only a spirit, we would be on an entirely different plane: one separate from time, space, and limit. The entire "eternity" that we imagine might seem like one second of the most beautiful, blissful warmth, while to another it might be an hour listening to the echoing music of the universe.

Really, no one can image heaven or eternity, because it is a place beyond existence. Assuming infinite possibilities isn't greedy, it's simply the best we mortals can do.

First of all, if a spirit is an actual real thing (just for argument's sake, as I'm not really a believer in the whole spirit thing), why should it essentially be different to who you are? It went through the same experiences in life, the same toils, so if anything it is simply should be you (enlightened or not). Eternity is the infinite passage of time, there is no end to it, therefore even you were to reckon the passage of time differently, it would make no difference as there would be no end, unlike if we interpreted 1000000000 years going by in a space of an hour, because that insinuates an end. Such bliss without change nor distinction would effectively be a neutral state (no changes or differences means one can't distinguish an emotion from another).

Personally, the best mortals can do is overcome the limits imposed on them by reality. That in itself provides more of a sense of achievement than gaining eternal life. To go beyond what we perceive to be our limits and reaching new frontiers is something that is innately human.

Originally Posted by bcomp

I don't think the concept of eternity makes life less precious like you said. Our life that we live here in this world is beautiful in it's mortality, as heaven will be in it's immortality.

"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more." The line is said by Macbeth in Shakespeare's great work (sure you already knew ) and is meant to reflect his Nihilistic outlook. However, the audience sees not just a pointless hour of struggle and failure, but a captivating escapade through guilt, revenge, and - your fav - mortality. Over 400 years now, the great play has lasted.

Our lives are just the same. There is triumph; there is anguish; there is strife.

Heaven doesn't outweigh or undermine our physical reality, but compliments it.

To balance the toils of life with bliss.

Well that's my say. :3

I'm sorry, but I'm in complete disagreement here. The 'existence' of heaven promotes apathy towards life, knowing there is a better place to go to when really the only place we have is this planet. Immortality is a greedy fantasy with no purpose and is ultimately, a tasteless existence. Let's apply the concept of immortality to here on earth.

With time being of no concern, you could wander the Earth to your heart's content, beholding all the wonders of this planet and seeing everything it has to offer. But eventually, you would see everything, and you'd be left reckoning the passage of time continually. The passing of seasons would become meaningless, as there would be no joy in overcoming winter to see another spring pass by, no pleasure to be sought from the autumn colours. You could work to create the most magnificent gardens, but as time passes by, your work will be undone by nature. You could create some of the most magnificent structures, but again time would wear the stone down and rust the steel, and you'll continue to persist in what would be eternal strife. You'd be left with a hollow existence.

Why should an eternal existence in Heaven be any different? Everything you do would ultimately be pointless.

Heaven distracts us from the real miracle here. Molecules and atoms that have existed for millions of years have coalesced into a self-aware form, an evanescent spark in the eyes of this universe, able to be aware of itself and the cosmos around us. Though limited by a finite existence, we still strive onwards onto new achievements, seeking to understand the world around us. And in the end, our bodies will crumble underneath the heavy burden of time, and the atoms that once were able to experience the universe consciously return back to the cosmos. And yet we do not lose our knowledge, we pass the multitudes of information to the next generation through language and the written word, in the hope that they would further our own understanding of this wonderful and perplexing universe.

We are creatures of progress and achievement. An eternal existence would be hell for us. I'd rather fade back into the nothingness I came from knowing that what I've achieved will help or further mankind in some way, than to be stuck in an eternal existence where no matter what I do, since everything is already perfect, it would be pointless as there is no need for improvement, no need for achievement. That isn't bliss in my eyes. Mortality is a mercy by which we are spared the vast burden of eternity.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You talk as if the ego was a bad thing. Which, in fact is not.

Opinions: "that is good" and "that is bad", to say so briefly, are products of the ego. Of course, the ego is in love with itself, it glamorizes everything, tries to be righteous and "the best" at all times. The ego, is neither good nor bad, just like everything else in this Universe.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

O RLY? So the fact that humans created religion and created a vast swathe of different beliefs can be completely disregarded because you happen to think your belief is correct?

All religions have something in common: The Spiritual. Man did not invent the Spirit, Spirit invented man. (Man, by nature, abstracts experience/ideas/knowledge into limited mediums such as language and speech, for the purpose of communication - which is inherent to survival) The sign is not the signified.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Happiness is not irrelevant as it can be achieved here on Earth.

For those who have experienced heaven, "happiness on earth" is almost nothing in comparison. And, true happiness is a state of Love and being, not something to be "gained". True happiness is unconditional and could be experienced on Mars for all it cares.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Absolute Truth and Heaven are irrelevant though (as neither exist).

That is like saying you are irrelevant and that you do not exist (from my perspective).

Do you believe in the impersonal Reality?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

If all is known, there is no point in existing, as how is one to further their own enlightenment?

If all is known, there is no point in "existing", one unites with the manifest and un-manifest, and one is truly content.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

But why should such a moment drag on for all eternity? What is the point in having such an experience if you are going to be stuck in such a state with no escape, no change, nothing to provide that sense of achievement that you suddenly know what everything is about.

Uniting with God, there is no "drag", there is no "what-is-the-point", there is no "stuck" and nor is there any "need" or "desire" whatsoever!

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Becoming fully enlightened shouldn't mean you lose the ability to choose your fate,

Enlightenment goes beyond "fate/karma", they were "traps" of the ego/mind. Even so, the body stays on "auto-pilot" if it needs to.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

to be stuck in an existence from which there is no escape from.

There is no "existence", no "stuck" and no need for an "escape" nor is there anywhere to escape to.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Eternal life is nothing but a greedy fantasy.

It seems so to the ego, as greed and fantasies are its productions. You can not be greedy of the infinite.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die

Few experience heaven because of this. It is the ego that should die, not the body; again, few know the difference.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Again, boring and boring... as I've been so hard trying to put out, what is the point of such an existence? Something that is perfect can't be improved on, and all that infinite possibility is essentially pointless when you have an eternity to do anything.

A "point" is another mentation of the ego which assumes everything has a purpose or need. Again, a quality of the animal brain. That which is Perfect can have no needs, no improvements and no errors. Therefore it has no point. If all is Divine, Perfect being just what it is; self-effulgent, self-fulfilling, it is beyond such an abstraction of "needing a point".

Originally Posted by bluefinger

This nothing but a greedy fantasy for those who don't understand the implications of eternity and have yet to accept their own mortality.

It is actually "nothing but a greedy fantasy for those who don't understand the implications of eternity and have yet to accept their true immortality."

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Total freedom? How is being forced to exist for an eternity total freedom?

Nobody "forced" you to exist, it was your choice. You have forgotten your Divine Self. It is shining brilliantly at this very moment, but, your "purpose" has convinced you otherwise. The ego actually is what is doing the "forcing"; it drains energy. Power: true Power from God is unlimited.

It is also noteworthy to say that such an eternal Bliss is beyond existence (yet it is part of it; one and the same).

Originally Posted by bluefinger

It isn't a downer attitude, it's actually accepting your own mortality. Knowing that this is the one and only chance I've got, then surely I'm gonna do the best I can to make the most of it. It is because we have a finite time and are limited by reality that we derive purpose, a meaning to our existence. We may be born without a purpose, but as humans, we give ourselves a purpose, we give our lives meaning.

Because that is what animals do. The Path to Enlightenment is not for the "light-hearted"/"down to earth".

Originally Posted by bluefinger

An eternal existence has no meaning, no purpose, and is effectively the worst thing that can happen to a sentient being.

An eternal existence has no meaning, no purpose, and is effectively beyond the realm of mental comprehension.

Originally Posted by really

Opinions: "that is good" and "that is bad", to say so briefly, are products of the ego. Of course, the ego is in love with itself, it glamorizes everything, tries to be righteous and "the best" at all times. The ego, is neither good nor bad, just like everything else in this Universe.

The ego is but a facet of the human mind. If it is neither good or bad, why shed it in the first place?

Originally Posted by really

All religions have something in common: The Spiritual. Man did not invent the Spirit, Spirit invented man. (Man, by nature, abstracts experience/ideas/knowledge into limited mediums such as language and speech, for the purpose of communication - which is inherent to survival) The sign is not the signified.

Spirit made man? Not evolution then, huh? Right...

Originally Posted by really

For those who have experienced heaven, "happiness on earth" is almost nothing in comparison. And, true happiness is a state of Love and being, not something to be "gained". True happiness is unconditional and could be experienced on Mars for all it cares.

Yawn... too much fluff...

Originally Posted by really

That is like saying you are irrelevant and that you do not exist (from my perspective).

Do you believe in the impersonal Reality?

Reality, like the dreamworld, is nothing but a subjective experience.

Originally Posted by really

If all is known, there is no point in "existing", one unites with the manifest and un-manifest, and one is truly content.

Word salad... all these terms but little substance.

Originally Posted by really

Uniting with God, there is no "drag", there is no "what-is-the-point", there is no "stuck" and nor is there any "need" or "desire" whatsoever!

Because all you do is kiss God's ass? Come on, I'm growing weary of this broken record stuff...

Originally Posted by really

Enlightenment goes beyond "fate/karma", they were "traps" of the ego/mind. Even so, the body stays on "auto-pilot" if it needs to.

Your argument is not consistent here. If the ego wasn't bad, then why the need to shed it, or overcome it?

Originally Posted by really

There is no "existence", no "stuck" and no need for an "escape" nor is there anywhere to escape to.

Because in actuality, it is nothing. Just like I was nothing hundred years ago, hundred years from now, I'll be nothing as well.

Originally Posted by really

It seems so to the ego, as greed and fantasies are its productions. You can not be greedy of the infinite.

More negative portrayals of the ego, if though you said it was neither good or bad. Not being consistent here.

Originally Posted by really

Few experience heaven because of this. It is the ego that should die, not the body; again, few know the difference.

See above response.

Originally Posted by really

A "point" is another mentation of the ego which assumes everything has a purpose or need. Again, a quality of the animal brain. That which is Perfect can have no needs, no improvements and no errors. Therefore it has no point. If all is Divine, Perfect being just what it is; self-effulgent, self-fulfilling, it is beyond such an abstraction of "needing a point".

The Deus Ex Machina of spirituality. Shed the body and become a spirit, and everything will be just swell.

Originally Posted by really

It is actually "nothing but a greedy fantasy for those who don't understand the implications of eternity and have yet to accept their true immortality."

Whatever floats your boat, mate...

Originally Posted by really

Nobody "forced" you to exist, it was your choice. You have forgotten your Divine Self. It is shining brilliantly at this very moment, but, your "purpose" has convinced you otherwise. The ego actually is what is doing the "forcing"; it drains energy. Power: true Power from God is unlimited.

I chose to exist? Since when? I exist because of decisions made beyond my control, and as a consequence, I came to be. However, despite my existence being not of my own volition, I still accept it and also accept the limits that are imposed by such an existence. I have not forgotten anything, since there was nothing to forget from before I even existed.

Originally Posted by really

It is also noteworthy to say that such an eternal Bliss is beyond existence (yet it is part of it; one and the same).

You know, you could make so much more sense if you simply conveyed it in the sense of dreaming. I dream all the time, but dreams too come to an end, no matter how pleasant they are.

Originally Posted by really

Because that is what animals do. The Path to Enlightenment is not for the "light-hearted"/"down to earth".

Newsflash, we are animals. Get over it and accept who you are.

Originally Posted by really

An eternal existence has no meaning, no purpose, and is effectively beyond the realm of mental comprehension.

You know, did you ever consider the possibility that this whole heaven concept is a construct of the ego? A fantasy to rationalise and comfort one's fear of their mortality. If I were to place you on the edge of a cliff, and to push and grab you as you looked over, you'd shit your pants. Your subconscious mind instinctively knows danger and will do its best to avoid it. It knows the finality of death much better than you, and old instincts are hard to break. All this heaven nonsense is a direct result of our rationalising, conscious mind (the ego, if you must). Also... any existence with no meaning and no purpose is equivalent to hell, no matter how you rationalise it.

If you've ever really been in love, you'd agree that it's the best feeling ever. For me, if I could just be with someone I loved more than anything, I don't see that ever getting boring. Although here on earth, that kind of love never lasts

Originally Posted by Schmaven

If you've ever really been in love, you'd agree that it's the best feeling ever. For me, if I could just be with someone I loved more than anything, I don't see that ever getting boring. Although here on earth, that kind of love never lasts

I've experienced many things, including the sensation of when I managed to achieve a WILD. The sense of absolute freedom felt and the awe at the whole manifestation of an entire reality within my own mind was something I have yet to feel elsewhere.

As for the love thing, you'd surprised on how long it'll last in certain cases... also, good things always come to an end, in some way or another. Heh, one strange saying I've heard was "Life is simply the vacation that Death gave you". Why should I spend my life seeking enlightenment when really, this life is what I should be enjoying? This is why the idea of heaven is irrelevant to me.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

First of all, Religion, by definition, is an organisation that holds to a key set of doctrines. What you are talking about here is Spirituality. Just to make sure certain definitions are clear.

Like I said before, I am not using the term religion in the sense that is commonly known today, as an institution/organization heavily based in sentimentality, but rather as a personal discovery of one's essence. Exoteric religion, although it is able to sustain the symbols with which one can use to explore inner worlds, is very suspect in its capacity to understand these symbols in their true esoteric sense without confusing them with one's own selfish desires or agenda, whether they be personal, political, or otherwise. Once one can see past this distortion that exoteric religion places on symbols to their essence, having reality only in one's Being, then one can understand their original meaning.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Also, I'm not in agreement with the idea of spiritual knowledge being reduced by a questioning 'limited' mind. If anything, a questioning mind discerns and investigates itself and thus is able to decipher what the Self is. You can't simply say that one has to spiritually enlighten oneself in order to come the realisation of Self. The only limitations of the mind is when it refuses to use logic and reasoning, holds onto conformed ideas and speculations without trying to analyse and understand. THAT is when the mind is hamstrung and 'limited'.

I agree with you that the rational mind is able to reflect on itself and come to a deeper understanding of what it is, but ultimately it is limited by its own nature. The limitations of the mind that you speak of are subrational, but what I am talking about is supra-rational, beyond the rational mind's capabilities. The mind is able to reflect on its existence, but it is not that existence in itself. There is something beyond the rational mind that gives it its existence, and this, being supra-rational, can only be exprienced. It can never be explained rationally without distorting its true essence, because it cannot be related to any other existent thing; it is that which allows existent things to be related and not a 'thing' itself.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Effectively, the whole daemonisation of humanity is because are inherently self-limiting? Well, no shit sherlock, as humans are bound with all sorts of limitations. However, that is not necessarily a bad thing.

I am not saying that being a limited thing is inherently a bad thing; I am saying that when a being becomes a victim of its limitation by refusing to acknowledge any reality higher than itself due to its tendency to reduce everything to its level of understanding (i.e. anological thinking) it can cause unnecessary suffering.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

As someone who meditates from time to time, I don't feel any changes to my self, I only derive sensations of relaxation and focus. I come out still being me, and not something less of me (or more, depending on what viewpoint you have on the matter). There is no empirical evidence to suggest that meditation does anything of the sort you claim, and thus I don't have to accept any of these claims. Basically, I try to adhere to the principle that "Though I want to believe in as many true things as possible, I want to get rid of as many false beliefs I have in order to achieve the former".

First of all, I wouldn't expect anyone to accept these things without 'Realizing' them within their own Being. If you are expecting empirical evidence for this state of being in physical terms, there is none. The only way to 'understand' this state is to experience for one's self, to 'Realize' it within your Being. Of course your ego will always be there (it is necessary to interact within this world) after, as you say, "come out" of this state, but what is important is for the ego to give up its control by understanding its relationship to the essence of Being.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

First of all, how can anyone suggest that your spiritual self would be any different from your physical self? Without one being similar to the other, then you lose the whole definition of Self. Thus my conclusion of the whole mindless-drone syndrome. Also, Eternity does not equate to all time converging onto one point. That is lack of time, if there is no progression of some sort. Eternity is the infinite passage of time, not the convergence of time.

The spiritual self is different from the physical self in that it is not limited by the physical world. The relation between the two is that the spiritual self 'contains' the physical self, or that the physical self is a limitation of the spiritual self. One doesn't lose any definition of Self, on the contrary, one expands their definition of Self and is therefore freed from its accidental properties that only hinder the self from realizing its true essence.

Let me be clear here: your conception of eternity has no meaning in what I'm talking about. To think of eternity as the indefinite passage of time is to put it in terms of a limited, physical time, which is to completely miss the point. One should not think of the present moment as a point caught between the past and future indefinitely continuing in an irreversible direction, but rather as a Whole that contains both past and future. Also, a spiritual progression is very different from a physical one. Spiritual progression consists of a hierarchy of states of being, each the limitation of the one previous, which one can pass through, creating a reversible time, so to speak. This symbolism of a Time being equivalent to a state of being can be found in many religions. A spiritual state of being is its own Time.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I still see no reason as to why a 'spiritually enlightened state' will somehow give me the ability to withstand an eternity. Also, what purpose do I gain out of such a thing? Do I simply kick-back and relax for all eternity?

This change in perspective I am talking about does not make this physical life any less meaningful; it actually gives it more meaning. To think of eternity as something that has to be withstood is an error in thinking. It is not some mindless drone state as you keep insisting. The difference is that you are trying to conceive of Heaven in terms of the sensory world. I can't explain it to you in the way I would explain something physical. It is something that has to be experienced within your own being. The best language can do is to point to this state of being, but it should not be confused with the state itself. The purpose is that you gain a deeper understanding of your Self, your World. This reminds me of the Sufi saying "to know oneself is to know one's lord". By truly recognizing what one is and what one is not and then to be able to trans-form the more limited self into the higher Self, one's lord, one's heaven is the purpose of a spiritual life.

Originally Posted by syzygy

Like I said before, I am not using the term religion in the sense that is commonly known today, as an institution/organization heavily based in sentimentality, but rather as a personal discovery of one's essence. Exoteric religion, although it is able to sustain the symbols with which one can use to explore inner worlds, is very suspect in its capacity to understand these symbols in their true esoteric sense without confusing them with one's own selfish desires or agenda, whether they be personal, political, or otherwise. Once one can see past this distortion that exoteric religion places on symbols to their essence, having reality only in one's Being, then one can understand their original meaning.

In my eyes, it is still spirituality, not religion. Semantically different, but the only reason I suggested the use of spirituality was not to get the nastier connotations of the word religion embroiled into the discussion.

Originally Posted by syzygy

I agree with you that the rational mind is able to reflect on itself and come to a deeper understanding of what it is, but ultimately it is limited by its own nature. The limitations of the mind that you speak of are subrational, but what I am talking about is supra-rational, beyond the rational mind's capabilities. The mind is able to reflect on its existence, but it is not that existence in itself. There is something beyond the rational mind that gives it its existence, and this, being supra-rational, can only be exprienced. It can never be explained rationally without distorting its true essence, because it cannot be related to any other existent thing; it is that which allows existent things to be related and not a 'thing' itself.

Okay, but as I have to admit, I'm not a believer of higher planes or forms of existence, I feel my own 'enlightenment' comes from being to think logically and rationally, ultimately using reason to investigate and probe deep matters such as the meaning of one's existence. To me, there is nothing beyond this existence and therefore there is no need to speculate on the meaning of the unknown. I can argue for debate's sake on how certain concepts can be worse than they seem, but from my understanding on such topics, what I have reasoned does not equate to the ideal situation that these concepts promote.

Originally Posted by syzygy

I am not saying that being a limited thing is inherently a bad thing; I am saying that when a being becomes a victim of its limitation by refusing to acknowledge any reality higher than itself due to its tendency to reduce everything to its level of understanding (i.e. anological thinking) it can cause unnecessary suffering.

Unnecessary suffering? I don't think that is the case for me. I take a very naturalistic viewpoint and perspective on these matters, and yet I am quite content with my existence. I accept my fear of my own mortality, knowing it is a product of my survival instinct, but that does not push me into matters concerning the supernatural. My perspective differs because despite the harsh reality that exists, I still see beauty in this life, I see no point in concepts like heaven, because ultimately, I don't see how I could gain a sensation of bliss from such an existence, 'spiritually enlightened' or not.

Originally Posted by syzygy

First of all, I wouldn't expect anyone to accept these things without 'Realizing' them within their own Being. If you are expecting empirical evidence for this state of being in physical terms, there is none. The only way to 'understand' this state is to experience for one's self, to 'Realize' it within your Being. Of course your ego will always be there (it is necessary to interact within this world) after, as you say, "come out" of this state, but what is important is for the ego to give up its control by understanding its relationship to the essence of Being.

The Ego and The Being are two complementary parts of what essentially constitutes our mind. It doesn't matter whether one is in control or not, the fact is neither can exist without each other. A naked Being or a naked Ego are both essentially hollow, one lacking expression, the other lacking substance. When I mean Being, please taken into consideration that I mean the subsconscious mind, not soul (because again, I have to admit, I'm not a believer in those things).

Originally Posted by syzygy

The spiritual self is different from the physical self in that it is not limited by the physical world. The relation between the two is that the spiritual self 'contains' the physical self, or that the physical self is a limitation of the spiritual self. One doesn't lose any definition of Self, on the contrary, one expands their definition of Self and is therefore freed from its accidental properties that only hinder the self from realizing its true essence.

Unfortunately, all I can bring to this is simply the possibility that all the supernatural and seemingly spiritual experiences are products of the rationalisation and creativity of the ego. You said it yourself that we are inherently limited, and I concur with that, but what if these very limitations are the source of the experiences or at least concepts we are talking about?

To me, the whole spirit thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Intangible concepts and speculation just doesn't motivate me in the spiritual sense, as my idea of enlightenment is essentially very different.

Originally Posted by syzygy

Let me be clear here: your conception of eternity has no meaning in what I'm talking about. To think of eternity as the indefinite passage of time is to put it in terms of a limited, physical time, which is to completely miss the point. One should not think of the present moment as a point caught between the past and future indefinitely continuing in an irreversible direction, but rather as a Whole that contains both past and future. Also, a spiritual progression is very different from a physical one. Spiritual progression consists of a hierarchy of states of being, each the limitation of the one previous, which one can pass through, creating a reversible time, so to speak. This symbolism of a Time being equivalent to a state of being can be found in many religions. A spiritual state of being is its own Time.

Non-linearity of time, yeah, I get you... BUT I'm talking about clear-cut definitions. You are talking about timelessness, in the sense that the normal progression of time that we experience at this moment does not apply. Unfortunately, I have little patience for fluffy terms, so don't take this personally when I point these things out.

Originally Posted by syzygy

This change in perspective I am talking about does not make this physical life any less meaningful; it actually gives it more meaning. To think of eternity as something that has to be withstood is an error in thinking. It is not some mindless drone state as you keep insisting. The difference is that you are trying to conceive of Heaven in terms of the sensory world. I can't explain it to you in the way I would explain something physical. It is something that has to be experienced within your own being. The best language can do is to point to this state of being, but it should not be confused with the state itself. The purpose is that you gain a deeper understanding of your Self, your World. This reminds me of the Sufi saying "to know oneself is to know one's lord". By truly recognizing what one is and what one is not and then to be able to trans-form the more limited self into the higher Self, one's lord, one's heaven is the purpose of a spiritual life.

Unfortunately, all I have is knowledge of this world and sensory experience, even in the context of dreams (as they are essentially virtual experiences, simulated within your own mind), so again, such concepts are essentially meaningless to me. My line of reasoning takes in completely different directions in which the Natural World is the one that makes sense, for it can be understood through science, and I can take logic and reasoning to understand my position in this existence. My Self is collection of experiences that have accumulated over time and effectively created who I am today, and I'm sure future experiences will only enhance and augment my Self, or maybe even change me completely if the experience happens to be traumatic enough.

I am who I am, because of the path I have walked and will continue to walk, but in the end, no matter what path I take, it'll always lead to the same destination. Therefore it is not reaching the destination that matters, but the journey itself.

Ha oh blue, you're so negative. But it's all good.

When you say the idea of heaven promotes apathy, I suppose that's your subjective opinion. Personally, I feel that the concept of eternity is an experience that I'll be able to fully enjoy after living out my mortal life. Many people also feel this way... look at the hundreds of Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists that all have their own beliefs about the eternal afterlife; almost all people on the planet are one of these three religions, yet there is no global "epidemic of apathy." (I've found most of the atheists I've ever been friends with are far more apathetic than anyone else, ironically.)

However, I'm not one to dictate how anyone should feel about life after death. It is your opinion and if you feel believing in eternity is frightening or unsatisfying, then by everything... don't believe in it!

The only problem I have with your argument is that you call eternity a "greedy" idea. You keep using that word, but I don't think you're using it correctly. Greed connotates a self-servient characteristic of a person that compels them to seek their personal gain above all else (usually through raising the value of their assets or attaining power.)

If heaven, eternal life, and infinite neutrality all amount to "a tasteless existence" that is the "worst thing that can happen to a sentient being," then we must assume that eternity has no value (if not negative, by the logic of your own statements.) Therefore, a greedy person would be able to find no direct source of profit, and thus lose interest in the concept of eternal life.

Greed does not find solace in the promise of eternal nothingness.

[Q.E.D] You fail.

Originally Posted by bcomp

Ha oh blue, you're so negative. But it's all good.

When you say the idea of heaven promotes apathy, I suppose that's your subjective opinion. Personally, I feel that the concept of eternity is an experience that I'll be able to fully enjoy after living out my mortal life. Many people also feel this way... look at the hundreds of Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists that all have their own beliefs about the eternal afterlife; almost all people on the planet are one of these three religions, yet there is no global "epidemic of apathy." (I've found most of the atheists I've ever been friends with are far more apathetic than anyone else, ironically.)

However, I'm not one to dictate how anyone should feel about life after death. It is your opinion and if you feel believing in eternity is frightening or unsatisfying, then by everything... don't believe in it!

The only problem I have with your argument is that you call eternity a "greedy" idea. You keep using that word, but I don't think you're using it correctly. Greed connotates a self-servient characteristic of a person that compels them to seek their personal gain above all else (usually through raising the value of their assets or attaining power.)

If heaven, eternal life, and infinite neutrality all amount to "a tasteless existence" that is the "worst thing that can happen to a sentient being," then we must assume that eternity has no value (if not negative, by the logic of your own statements.) Therefore, a greedy person would be able to find no direct source of profit, and thus lose interest in the concept of eternal life.

Greed does not find solace in the promise of eternal nothingness.

[Q.E.D] You fail.

Firstly, before you declare any failures here, you kinda used a logical fallacy in the first paragraph, appeal to a majority. An idea that is supported by a large group of people doesn't necessarily make it correct or more valid.

On the greed thing, well, I guess the better term to use is fearful then. A person may only cling onto such concepts as Heaven due to the fact he is afraid of his/her life ending. This is simply an emotional crutch in my eyes.

I find eternal life and an infinite neutrality to be a tasteless existence, that doesn't mean others see it in the same way. I simply applied my argument on the context of other people. It doesn't necessarily fail, I'm simply expressing my subjective viewpoint in order to highlight to others my objection on the concept of heaven, a devil's advocate in a way. If someone doesn't question the validity of an idea or concept, nobody will think deeply about it or try to fully understand the concept.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

The ego is but a facet of the human mind.

The ego is the mind.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

If it is neither good or bad, why shed it in the first place?

Because it is not Reality, you balloon!

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Spirit made man? Not evolution then, huh? Right...

When I say Spirit, do not think of anything material, think of that which animates material: The essence of evolution.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Yawn... too much fluff...

What is misunderstood?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Reality, like the dreamworld, is nothing but a subjective experience.

The Reality I speak of is not the dreamworld, it is the real world; beyond worlds. All experience is subjective.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Word salad... all these terms but little substance.

The Spirit is not of substance, substance is of Spirit.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Because all you do is kiss God's ass? Come on, I'm growing weary of this broken record stuff...

Ok, if you are going to act like an idiot, put "kiss God's ass" in formal terms please.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Your argument is not consistent here. If the ego wasn't bad, then why the need to shed it, or overcome it?

Are you entirely missing the point?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Because in actuality, it is nothing. Just like I was nothing hundred years ago, hundred years from now, I'll be nothing as well.

Nothing proves itself to be non-existent - just as non existence self-evidently is non-existent. I don't see your point anyhow. What do you mean?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

More negative portrayals of the ego, if though you said it was neither good or bad. Not being consistent here.

Where is the negativity?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

See above response.

Enlightenment is not negativity, it is beyond the world of duality. (Non-duality)

Originally Posted by bluefinger

The Deus Ex Machina of spirituality. Shed the body and become a spirit, and everything will be just swell.

Be aware of Spirit/Reality is all it means, one is not "becoming" anything but ones true Self (which has always been).

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Whatever floats your boat, mate...

He who says that is afraid of sinking. But one cannot sink if he knows He is the Ocean.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I chose to exist? Since when? I exist because of decisions made beyond my control, and as a consequence, I came to be.

The ego has no control, nor is it good at guessing.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

However, despite my existence being not of my own volition, I still accept it and also accept the limits that are imposed by such an existence.

Great! Then hold no judgment of what you have yet to reveal, because they are limitations to your growth.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

I have not forgotten anything, since there was nothing to forget from before I even existed.

That is another illusion. Since God is beyond the mind, He is beyond memory. God has no memory if He is Omniscient, and so has no shrouds of uncertainty or forgetfulness.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You know, you could make so much more sense if you simply conveyed it in the sense of dreaming. I dream all the time, but dreams too come to an end, no matter how pleasant they are.

Yes, the ego would love to deny Perfection! Isn't survival clever!? No, Eternal Peace has no end; no beginning.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Newsflash, we are animals. Get over it and accept who you are.

I know we are animals; hence my talk of survival. But who experiences the animal? The Self. The Self experiences everything, it drives the Universe.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You know, did you ever consider the possibility that this whole heaven concept is a construct of the ego?

Yes. I also considered that the ego protects itself. (From the "unknown").

Originally Posted by bluefinger

A fantasy to rationalise and comfort one's fear of their mortality. If I were to place you on the edge of a cliff, and to push and grab you as you looked over, you'd shit your pants.

You don't know me, I might not do anything at all. But I see your point.

Heaven is not revealed so one can not be afraid of heights, it is revealed because it is Reality.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Your subconscious mind instinctively knows danger and will do its best to avoid it. It knows the finality of death much better than you, and old instincts are hard to break.

All instincts can be hard to break. Why do you think that is?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

All this heaven nonsense is a direct result of our rationalising, conscious mind (the ego, if you must). Also... any existence with no meaning and no purpose is equivalent to hell, no matter how you rationalise it.

Exactly. Nonsense, hell, chaos - whatever you call it, are found when something tries to rationalize something which is beyond rationalization.

Try decoding a tree. Now, if you can do that, grow a Tree right here in front of your computer screen. Only God knows how to do that.

Originally Posted by really

Because it is not Reality, you balloon!

Why should I accept that claim though? Reality in itself is defined by your senses and not by some nebulous concept.

Originally Posted by really

When I say Spirit, do not think of anything material, think of that which animates material: The essence of evolution.

Even though at the very basic level, we are nothing but self-replicating chemicals? If this sounds a bit nihilistic, fair enough, but that is the harsh reality.

Originally Posted by really

The Reality I speak of is not the dreamworld, it is the real world; beyond worlds. All experience is subjective.

Hence why I can't accept your claim that somehow True Reality™ is something beyond 'mental comprehension'. There is no way to objectively know about such things, therefore to take a gnostic approach on this argument is a little... dogmatic.

Originally Posted by really

Ok, if you are going to act like an idiot, put "kiss God's ass" in formal terms please.

What's this? A challenge? I accept!

Kissing God's ass becomes "To brush one's lips sensually against a deity's sphincter"

Man, this is fun

Originally Posted by really

Nothing proves itself to be non-existent - just as non existence self-evidently is non-existent. I don't see your point anyhow. What do you mean?

I mean that nothing is really the status-quo, that life itself is the disturbance, the ripples on the surface of a pond. Once the ripples fade, the ripples do not ascend to some higher plane, they simply merge back into the water, and everything becomes still once more.

Originally Posted by really

Enlightenment is not negativity, it is beyond the world of duality. (Non-duality)

Be aware of Spirit/Reality is all it means, one is not "becoming" anything but ones true Self (which has always been).

Enlightenment is knowledge of one's self and the world around him. That is how I define enlightenment. For me, it has nothing to do with matters concerning spirituality. What I am doing here is simply questioning certain spiritual matters so to provoke thought and understanding.

Originally Posted by really

He who says that is afraid of sinking. But one cannot sink if he knows He is the Ocean.

No, I was acknowledging a difference of opinion through a colloquialism.

Originally Posted by really

The ego has no control, nor is it good at guessing.

No, I came to be through the actions of my mother and father. My existence came about from actions beyond my own control.

Originally Posted by really

Great! Then hold no judgment of what you have yet to reveal, because they are limitations to your growth.

Superiority complex... great.

How are you to determine that what I have mused upon is a "limitation to [my] growth"? All I'm doing here is questioning the validity of a concept.

Originally Posted by really

That is another illusion. Since God is beyond the mind, He is beyond memory. God has no memory if He is Omniscient, and so has no shrouds of uncertainty or forgetfulness.

Illusion this, illusion that... so you believe in a deceptive God?

Originally Posted by really

Yes, the ego would love to deny Perfection! Isn't survival clever!? No, Eternal Peace has no end; no beginning.

Then eternal peace is simply non-existence, if it is timeless.

Originally Posted by really

I know we are animals; hence my talk of survival. But who experiences the animal? The Self. The Self experiences everything, it drives the Universe.

The universe is just the universe. The sun is nothing but a hot ball of gas, and so are all the distant stars. Galaxies are gigantic collections of stars and the superclusters are nothing but gigantic collections of galaxies. A mere human, even as a spirit, does not drive this enormous universe.

Originally Posted by really

Yes. I also considered that the ego protects itself. (From the "unknown").

Great. You should ponder about it more then... it might bring a fresh perspective to some of your beliefs.

Originally Posted by really

You don't know me, I might not do anything at all. But I see your point.

Heaven is not revealed so one can not be afraid of heights, it is revealed because it is Reality.

Again, reality is defined by our experiences, not by nebulous concepts such as heaven or spirits.

Originally Posted by really

All instincts can be hard to break. Why do you think that is?

Because our mind is actually a deterministic system that creates the illusion of free will. This is what Neuroscience has pretty much found to be the case.

Originally Posted by really

Exactly. Nonsense, hell, chaos - whatever you call it, are found when something tries to rationalize something which is beyond rationalization.

Try decoding a tree. Now, if you can do that, grow a Tree right here in front of your computer screen. Only God knows how to do that.

lolwut?

Technically, plants can be grown without soil. As long as they can obtain the nutrients they need, then soil is irrelevant. All I need is a way to provide the nutrients (water with all essential nutrients dissolved in it) and a source of light. A little harder to do than growing a plant in soil, but possible. Also, I wouldn't want a plant in front of my screen... because then I can't read the screen. That would be silly.

Nothing is beyond rationalisation. If something can be observed and documented, it will be understood. Computers themselves function upon strange quantum phenomena that go against conventional understanding of electrons, but yet through observation and application of the research done on these phenomena, we now have these marvellous machines.

The world doesn't have to have all this spiritual stuff attached to it. People will have spiritual ideas nonetheless, but whether they can justify these beliefs articulately varies from person to person. All this shows is that everyone experiences things differently and thus one standard that one individual may have cannot be applied to all. You say Reality exists beyond this illusion being Life... but to me, all I see is this life, because I know nothing else apart from this existence. I only form my ideas upon what I know, and not what is unknown to me. Until the unknown is made to be known through discovery (and/or through science), then I can't base any of my ideas on the unknown as that is irrational.