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    1. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Why does existence exist?
      That is self-evident, just as non-existence is self-evidenlty non-existent.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Wouldn't any cause of existence be a form of existence?
      No. Viewing the Universe, causes and effects are merely artifacts of perception. In Reality, everything happens on its own in Absolute Perfection.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Can something create itself?
      Form is something created out of the Formless. Both exist, yet of different nature. Together they are one and the same.

    2. #52
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by NeoSioType View Post
      I got this one!!! That is if no one said it. I'm too lazy to read through the book you guys created.

      The reason existence exists and that we see it is because we wouldn't see it if it didn't exist. So...because we see it it's only natrual that it does exist.

      Does that make sense to any of you?
      Thanks for digging up this oldie. I like reading what people have to say about the issue.

      It looks like your argument explains why we see existence (because existence exists), but not why existence is there for us to see it in the first place. You say that our seeing it necessitates that it exist, and I agree with that, but didn't it have to already be there for us to see it?

      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      The question seems flawed. Why is a rose a rose? Because if it were anything else, it would be something else, of course. I'm refering to the particular phrasing of 'why does existence exist?'

      As far as the title of the thread is concerned, I think you know what my stance on the subject is, since we've discussed it ad nauseum. I'm still not sure why you have such a hard time grasping the concept of an infinite thing not requiring a cause. Or, perhaps its that you simply believe that the universe must have had a beginning, in which case you really are a theist after all. Something from nothing just doesn't work, as far as we can tell, and so the only available option for that explanation is a being that has the ability to create itself, which I believe to be non-existent.

      But, since you will inevitably disagree with me, I'll leave you with some wiser words than my own on the subject, and kudos to anyone who recognizes them;
      I do believe that even something infinite would have to have a cause. There would have to be reasons the infinite reality exists in the exact state that it does instead of some other state. However, existence itself is such a vague principle that it might be the one thing that does not require a cause. It is the one form that all other forms have, so it is the most general form there is. When you talk about an infinitely powerful God that has human emotions or whatever, like you and I have a zillion times before, I think we are definitely talking about something that would have to have a reason for its existence even if it has always existed. A cause does not have to be something that exists in time and precedes its effects in a time sequence. It can be a metaphysical principle at the root of the existence of something eternal. But like I said, existence itself might not require a cause. Cause is a form of existence, and that is what makes this issue really warped.

      By the way, I am not certain that the universe had a beginning, but I am certain that it has some type of causal root. If existence has a causal root, that causal root exists, making it a form of existence. That would be a circular scenario. So either a circular causal scenario exists, or there is at least one thing that does not require a cause, so it seems. Don't both of those defy the laws of reality as we know them? Hmmmm....

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Form is something created out of the Formless. Both exist, yet of different nature. Together they are one and the same.
      After all of my brainstorming, what you said is pretty close to what I think the answer might be. It is just so difficult to explain it without contradiction. The answer seems to transcend language.

      Logic is a form of existence, so existence itself is at the root of logic. Therefore, the most fundamental nature of existence might be something illogical, yet real. It is almost painful for me to say that, but it seems like it might be the case, based on... logic.
      Last edited by Universal Mind; 05-14-2008 at 07:27 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    3. #53
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      I have never advocated the existence of a personal god with purely human emotions. (except that humans, as a small and largely insignificant part of god give it their emotions in a largely insignificant capacity)

      The ability to happily respond to any adversity is the divine.
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    4. #54
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      I have never advocated the existence of a personal god with purely human emotions. (except that humans, as a small and largely insignificant part of god give it their emotions in a largely insignificant capacity)
      You haven't advocated it, but many others have, and I have talked about it a lot. I guess you and I just talked about "God". When I use that term, I am talking about something that at least has a mind and other specific characteristics.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    5. #55
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      This is the ultimate philosophical question in my opinion.

      The answer may eventually just be mathematical. We can't cope with this concept because we live in a universe with linear time. It may be that reality has many time dimensions in which spontaneous existence is completely logical. However, sadly, we may never be able to emulate such logic, let alone comprehend it.

    6. #56
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      However, sadly, we may never be able to emulate such logic, let alone comprehend it.
      I know, and I just can't deal with that. I don't want to die never having understood why there is existence instead of complete nothingness and why existence is in the specific form it is in, but I will probably never understand it. So... let's drink Budweiser and yell about football.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    7. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      This is the ultimate philosophical question in my opinion.

      The answer may eventually just be mathematical. We can't cope with this concept because we live in a universe with linear time. It may be that reality has many time dimensions in which spontaneous existence is completely logical. However, sadly, we may never be able to emulate such logic, let alone comprehend it.




      /thread

    8. #58
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      nothing can't create. how can nothing create? there is nothing in it. no atoms, no cause, nothing.

      existence came from something - its the something we don't understand. as this something is outside of time, existed before the universe, as we know it. and the best we can say is, this something, always was

    9. #59
      Xei
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      nothing can't create. how can nothing create? there is nothing in it. no atoms, no cause, nothing.
      Thanks for demonstrating my point so well. You're talking in terms of linear causality.

    10. #60
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Thanks for demonstrating my point so well. You're talking in terms of linear causality.

      no, I don't agree

      even atoms magically appearing into existence, I don't agree with that either. I don't agree those atoms came from nothing - but came from something we don't understand yet, like ether.

      nothing is nothing, existence is.

    11. #61
      Xei
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      You're still thinking, 'first there was nothing, then there was something, what caused that?'. You can't deny that that is a product of thinking in terms of linear time.

      Linear time simply cannot be the structure of overlying reality in my opinion, because it gives paradoxes. There cannot be an infinite string of causes and effects because the whole string must have a 'cause' (interestingly this is where the prime mover argument for God comes from). However neither can there be a finite string of causes and effects because the first cause is in turn an effect and requires a cause itself, and is hence not the first at all.

    12. #62
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Why does existence exist?

      Wouldn't any cause of existence be a form of existence? Can something create itself?
      First of all, the smallest particle of matter isn't matter, but a wave of energy that behaves in a way that an obsever expects it to. It responds to mind. Why does existence exist? that is the mystery of mysteries and anything I way would be wrong. So don't bother trying to argu with me. Here goes:

      existence doesn't exist. It is a dream. A dream of the mind. But why does the mind exist? The mind is nothing. Nothing is the mind. Matter is dreamed up from mind. That is why it is empty energy that responds to the mind. So although all phenomena are essentially void and empty of any inherent reality, it still continues to manifest. This is the fertility of the mind.
      Now someone asked the good question, why do (we,you,I) exist? Why does the one quantum field of universal mind exist? A good answer was why not? This is the mystery this is the paradox at the heart of creation that cannot be known ever. All that can happen is hypothesis and philosophies. But this is the Riddle with no answer. Existence is a mystery to be lived, not a puzzle to be solved. Enjoy!!!

    13. #63
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      You're still thinking, 'first there was nothing, then there was something, what caused that?'. You can't deny that that is a product of thinking in terms of linear time.

      Linear time simply cannot be the structure of overlying reality in my opinion, because it gives paradoxes. There cannot be an infinite string of causes and effects because the whole string must have a 'cause' (interestingly this is where the prime mover argument for God comes from). However neither can there be a finite string of causes and effects because the first cause is in turn an effect and requires a cause itself, and is hence not the first at all.
      no, im not thinking in linear time

      you are turning my words into linear time

      I am saying there is something OUTSIDE of time all together, something that is eternal - but we understand eternal is something that is lasting for a very long period of time, and even that is not an accurate description. I am saying there is something that simply IS.

      I am saying nothing is just that - nothing. nothing. nothing. nothing. nothing.

      what I am talking about is the something, that always was. it is outside of time, outside of this universe and outside of everything that we know and understand. from this something came the birth of our universe and time as we understand it.

      in this scenario, God is not the cause. God IS.

    14. #64
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      Like he said.

    15. #65
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      At this moment in time, we call it "nothing." We call it "void," "vacuum," and "empty space."

      But still, it has a name. It has qualities. What if, one day, we find that a "void" can be quantitatively measured? Remember that nothing is certain in science. A theory suggests everything is strings, another says light is the absorbtion of darkness. The truth shifts.

      @everyone claiming there is no beginning: Thank you. I thought I was alone in this viewpoint. <3
      Abraxas

      Quote Originally Posted by OldSparta
      I murdered someone, there was bloody everywhere. On the walls, on my hands. The air smelled metallic, like iron. My mouth... tasted metallic, like iron. The floor was metallic, probably iron

    16. #66
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      After all of my brainstorming, what you said is pretty close to what I think the answer might be. It is just so difficult to explain it without contradiction. The answer seems to transcend language.
      It does actually, you won't know for sure unless you experience it - language always falls short in description; nothing can measure the non-linear.

      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Logic is a form of existence, so existence itself is at the root of logic. Therefore, the most fundamental nature of existence might be something illogical, yet real. It is almost painful for me to say that, but it seems like it might be the case, based on... logic.
      That is why we can barely grasp it with words. Try to picture science and logic, as they only formulate explanations based on the surface of things, and not the essence of things (being). You cannot measure "beingness" or anything of experiential nature.

    17. #67
      Xei
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      no, im not thinking in linear time

      you are turning my words into linear time

      I am saying there is something OUTSIDE of time all together, something that is eternal - but we understand eternal is something that is lasting for a very long period of time, and even that is not an accurate description. I am saying there is something that simply IS.

      I am saying nothing is just that - nothing. nothing. nothing. nothing. nothing.

      what I am talking about is the something, that always was. it is outside of time, outside of this universe and outside of everything that we know and understand. from this something came the birth of our universe and time as we understand it.
      That's kind of what I said, though. I'm saying the overlying layer of reality has more than one time dimension, so in a sense it is 'eternal beyond time' because a linear period of time makes no sense in that context.
      in this scenario, God is not the cause. God IS.
      Debateable.

      What evidence do you really have to jump to that conclusion? And how are you defining God here, what kind of God are you talking about?

      In my opinion there is only one thing that transcends time and space. Consciousness is not limited by space but is bound to time. Everything physical is firmly bound in both space and time. However, there is one thing remaining; that thing is mathematics, which is an aspect of pure logic. Logic alone is nowhere and notime.

    18. #68
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      Existence is a paradox. Every answer just brings more questions. Logic fails when contemplating the mystery because at the heart of every question is a paradox. Those who don't see the unverse as paradoxical haven't looked deeply. If you don't find life to be a paradox that shows that you have only lived superficially. When attempting to make sense of life's mysteries we are in danger of trying to explain it with philosophies. And with philosophies everything we can say about it is untrue, or at the best, partially true.
      We would be wise to keep in mind that we are a part in this ultimate reality, and our minds are just a small part of us. Any philosophy is a collection of thoughts and concepts generated by our small minds. The ultimate reality is larger than the sum of all beings, minds, thoughts, and concepts. Any philosophy, any logic, any religion, any science cannot explain the mystery which is by necessity larger than the sum of all experience. For it is the mother of all experience. It is the mother of all thoughts and all concepts.
      Therefore, remember that we are just playing with philosophy, we are entertaining ourselves. But we would be foolish to believe in anything our minds think up because no mind and not even all the minds can comprehend the vastness of the paradoxical mystery.

      That being said, why is there existence? I think it has something to do with orgasm.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      vague


      What the hell do you mean by "ultimate reality"? Are there many little lesser fake realities or what?

      Reality is a stupidly vague term to begin with.

    20. #70
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omicron View Post
      What the hell do you mean by "ultimate reality"? Are there many little lesser fake realities or what?
      The Ultimate Reality actually connects with Spirituality. It is God/Universal Mind/Supreme Truth, etc. (However that would lead off-topic)

      The other "fake" realities are really illusions of the mind.
      Last edited by really; 05-19-2008 at 09:53 AM.

    21. #71
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God/Universal Mind
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    22. #72
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      The Ultimate Reality actually connects with Spirituality. It is God/Universal Mind/Supreme Truth, etc. (However that would lead off-topic)

      The other "fake" realities are really illusions of the mind.
      I don't like the 'illusions of the mind' part, since the mind is supposedly a part of the illusion as well. In order for this explanation to hold water, you're going to have to come up with what exactly it is that is entertaining this illusion.

      The ability to happily respond to any adversity is the divine.
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    23. #73
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      The Ultimate Reality actually connects with Spirituality. It is God/Universal Mind/Supreme Truth, etc. (However that would lead off-topic)

      The other "fake" realities are really illusions of the mind.
      Ok give me an example of a fake reality plz.

    24. #74
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      For example: a dream at night. The perception that we are all separate beings with separate minds. The ego is a thought. A definition of reality depending on thoughts and perceptions ABOUT reality as sensory input into our limited five senses. I could go on and on but this sums up the most important points.

    25. #75
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
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      Hahaha I can't believe you think things exist.

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