Thread: Christians and Atheists - What's the Deal?

(Warning: this is a crapload of reading so only read it if you are really interested in the subject matter)

Hey everyone, my names Josh and I am a Christian and a lucid dreamer. It seems that I am in the minority on this forum since most of you don't believe in a God. I have seen a whole lot of attacks against Christians on these forums - about how we're ignorant, we're elitist, we're weak, we're imbeciles etcetera etcetera. A lot of you probably agree with Marx's famous statement, "Religion is the opiate of the masses". I'm sick of all the hating and all that other bullshit. What I want is a meaningful and honest conversation between the two sides (religious and non-religious) about why we believe what we believe. Lets have respect for each other people.

First of all, I want to get rid of some stereotypes here. I am a Christian and believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior. I do not believe that lucid dreaming is "satanic". I do not hate gays and liberals. I care about the environment. I do not think that I'm perfect. I do not "protect myself" from music, movies, books etcetera that aren't necessarily Christian. I even listen to metal. I do not reject science when it seems to go against God. I believe in evolution because it is a whole lot more logical and backed by evidence than the literal seven day creation theory. I just believe that God's hand directed evolution.

In my opinion, science and religion are not mutually exclusive but compliment each other. I see science as discovering what God has hidden for us. Kind of like an easter egg hunt. The more we know about this world the more we know about the creator of this world. I do not have blind faith in God because I have logical reasons believing in a God. First of all, I do not understand how consciousness can come out of the absence of consciousness. How could the human abilities of reasoning, intellect, love, fear, and memory emerge from the void of space? When a conscious, eternal God is put into the picture, something created from nothing makes sense. Secondly, I believe that objective moral values are not products of evolution. Without a God giving us objective moral values, moral values are just a matter of personal taste (example "I don't enjoy torturing innocent children"). Also, immoral actions such as rape and murder are taboo not simply because they "aren't beneficial for the evolution of humans" but because they are WRONG and we all have a feeling deep down that they are wrong. Thirdly, evil in the world and the existence of a God are not contradictory. God has given us free will so that we can choose to love him or not. Forcing us to love Him would be divine rape. God respects us so much that he lets us think for ourselves. God created the best possible world. A world with no war, disease and poverty and yet no free will would be worse than the world we live in. For the things that I don't understand yet I give God the benefit of the doubt and know because thats what faith is. Whenever I encounter something that appears to put God in the wrong, I realize that I'm the one in the wrong since I don't understand it due to my human limitations and that God is in the right.

I have a big problem with people who look at the hypocrisy of the Westborough Baptists and Pat Robertson and conclude that Christianity is bullshit. The way I see it, the Westborough Baptists and Pat Robertson are not Christians but are instead people who are perverting and twisting Christianity. I don't think that all Islams are terrorists because of 9/11 and the Al-Queda. I do not think that all atheists are pretentious douchebags like Christopher Hitchens that call anyone who believes anything besides their own opinion weak and ignorant. I personally know atheists that are kind and considerate. I think that other beliefs are respectable beliefs (excluding scientology) even though I may disagree with them. Please people, stop looking at the those who pollute Christianity but the people who are loving Christ followers and then judge Christianity.

I want to hear all your thoughts on this.

This thread is bound to get heated, but I trust that everyone from both sides (religious and non-religious) will refrain from personal attacks.

No matter what sort of spin one puts on their beliefs, such as painting themselves as a fun-loving moderate who is open minded, the problem of a lack of evidence for believing in various things remains. Your post is full of assertions with no evidence to back them up, except for a vague appeal to logical reasoning, which is not evidence in the first place.

The heated arguments between those of faith and those of none probably stem from two things. One: ignorant and stubborn fundamentalists who want to impose their nonsense on everyone else, and two: moderates who will attempt to paint themselves as intelligent and reasonable people, yet still cling to similar (but certainly not identical) beliefs as the fundamentalists. There may also be a third thing which is a sort of combative attitude among atheists (I am no exception) that leads to such confrontations.

I suppose the biggest "deal" is that it's 2011, and after at least four-hundred years of amazing scientific advancement, people still cling to caveman-like notions whenever they reach a roadblock in their understanding of things. Your post is full of them. The use of such beliefs in the face of ignorance is known as invoking the "God of the gaps," where God fills the void of a gap in knowledge.

Well, pretty much this. You're free to believe whatever you like, and you may be a great person...but quite frankly, you have no evidence to back up any of your beliefs. I likely don't know you in real life, and it bears no matter on the situation at hand.

The thing is your version of believing Christianity is actually just believing whatever you thought in the first place. If the Bible says what you think is rational (treat your neighbour as you treat yourself, etc.), then you believe it and accredit that belief to your faith. If the Bible says something you think is abhorrent or stupid (being gay is a sin, force raped women to marry their rapists, genocide is fine, the world is a few thousand years old, etc. etc. ad nauseam), then you ignore it and put it down to metaphor or something.

So really a moderate belief in Christianity means pretty much nothing at all. You end up with same values as an atheist, via the same means; reason and your moral compass. It's just that you've passed it through this totally superfluous filter.

Lets have respect for each other people.

I don't respect that which doesn't deserve it. I don't respect religious beliefs, not because the people hold different views from me, but because of the numerous significant flaws in it. The contradictions. How there are thousands of mutually exclusive religions, which people all believe for the exact same reasons. Because it's evident of a lack of critical thinking.

I respect your right to believe what you want, and I might generally respect you as a person if you're deserving of that. But I won't respect your religious beliefs.

When a conscious, eternal God is put into the picture, something created from nothing makes sense.

Same old same old.

1. Where did god come from?
2. If god doesn't need a beginning, then why could the universe not have had a beginning?

I have seen a whole lot of attacks against Christians on these forums - about how we're ignorant, we're elitist, we're weak, we're imbeciles etcetera etcetera.

You're taking comments addressed to specific people and aiming them at a group ("Christians") instead, and taking it personally ("we're weak..."). Don't do that.

People here believe for different reasons. Some of the Christians here are ignorant and moronic. Some do believe themselves to be morally superior. Some are doing it because they're too weak to honestly look at things. That's not a personal attack, it's a fact in many cases. If people here believe you to be ignorant, we will say that. Don't project our words aimed at other people on to yourself and start acting offended.

Well thanks for honesty.

No one can be 100% sure of anything. Just as Christians can't prove there is a God, Atheists can't prove that there isn't a God. The best we can do is have belief in the most probable option and for me, that is the existence of God. I apologize if in my last post it seems like I was convincing everyone that I had 100% proof of God, because I don't. Arguments are just words. I hope we all remember our human limitations.

No one can be 100% sure of anything. Just as Christians can't prove there is a God, Atheists can't prove that there isn't a God.

You're right, but unless any atheist turns around and says "God does definitely not exist", then they don't have to prove anything. Christians do have the burden of proof because they are making the claim "God exists".

I can't prove Unicorns don't exist, but that doesn't mean anyone should believe they do exist.

Originally Posted by epdawg62

Well thanks for honesty.

No one can be 100% sure of anything. Just as Christians can't prove there is a God, Atheists can't prove that there isn't a God. The best we can do is have belief in the most probable option and for me, that is the existence of God. I apologize if in my last post it seems like I was convincing everyone that I had 100% proof of God, because I don't. Arguments are just words. I hope we all remember our human limitations.

Fortunately most of the atheists on these forums do not take the illogical step and say that there is, without a doubt, no God. And if they do, they need to reevaluate their reasoning.

And you're right. The best we can do is accept the most probable option. I think the case is clear that the most probable option is, however, scientific methodology and reasoning. The most probable option is that the existence of God is quite unlikely. In summary, for all the problems we see now that science has yet to explain and are attributed to God as the cause of such problems, we need only turn back the clock a few hundred years. Why do objects fall back to the Earth once thrown upwards? Why do people become diseased and sick? At one point the answer to such questions was "God" or "demons" or "sin." Now we know the answers are "gravity" and "germs/bacteria/viruses." I think the fact that we've answered such questions and are able to actually do something to prevent such problems, and build on them for our own benefit, tells how much a scientific understanding mops the floor with a faith-based understanding. We'll never get anywhere saying "God did it."

Originally Posted by epdawg62

Well thanks for honesty.

No one can be 100% sure of anything. Just as Christians can't prove there is a God, Atheists can't prove that there isn't a God. The best we can do is have belief in the most probable option and for me, that is the existence of God. I apologize if in my last post it seems like I was convincing everyone that I had 100% proof of God, because I don't. Arguments are just words. I hope we all remember our human limitations.

It's a common misconception that God is somehow separate from other phenomena in that no evidence can be given either way.

The Christian God, for example, typically has various attributes with physical consequences assigned to him. These include omnipotence, omniscience, benevolence, and the creation of life (either via straight creation or the (nonsensical) idea of 'guided' natural selection). However we can use observation to conclude that this is a total contradiction: we observe, for example, that the smallpox virus exists. This virus causes the agonising and protracted death of its host and, historically, killed untold millions of innocents. God created life so God is solely responsible for its existence (being omniscient he couldn't be ignorant of the consequences and being omnipotent its existence cannot be out of his control), but God is benevolent and so would never gratuitously cause mass death and pain. This is a contradiction and, hence, we have clear physical evidence against the existence of the Christian God.

There are of course various Gods which are compatible with the universe, but if you're going to assign the power of creation to your God then you are forced to conclude that your God is either sadistic or just plain apathetic, so the traditional Christian God is not one of these.

I wonder what an atheist likes to bitch about when there are no religious people around to ridicule.

The weather.

Originally Posted by epdawg62

When a conscious, eternal God is put into the picture, something created from nothing makes sense.

When a coscious, eternal God is put into the picture, anything can make sense. It's just like saying "because" and nothing more.

Originally Posted by epdawg62

Secondly, I believe that objective moral values are not products of evolution. Without a God giving us objective moral values, moral values are just a matter of personal taste (example "I don't enjoy torturing innocent children"). Also, immoral actions such as rape and murder are taboo not simply because they "aren't beneficial for the evolution of humans" but because they are WRONG and we all have a feeling deep down that they are wrong.

Why can't these taboos be explained by evolution exactly?

Originally Posted by epdawg62

Whenever I encounter something that appears to put God in the wrong, I realize that I'm the one in the wrong since I don't understand it due to my human limitations and that God is in the right.

Isn't that very similar to the "stick-fingers-in-ears-and-yell-LALALAICANTHEARYOU" approach? If something contradicts god, it must be wrong, but we just can't see it? Correct me if i misunderstood it.

Originally Posted by epdawg62

I have a big problem with people who look at the hypocrisy of the Westborough Baptists and Pat Robertson and conclude that Christianity is bullshit. The way I see it, the Westborough Baptists and Pat Robertson are not Christians but are instead people who are perverting and twisting Christianity.

Who are you to judge who's christian or not? Isn't that up to your God?


Personally, I don't reject the possibility of something which can in some loose sense be defined as a god, somewhere in this amazing universe. But I am quite sure that the religions of this planet doesn't hold any truth. It's much more likely that we created the christian god in our image, rather than the opposite.

Now that I have some free time....

Originally Posted by epdawg62

I do not have blind faith in God because I have logical reasons believing in a God. First of all, I do not understand how consciousness can come out of the absence of consciousness. How could the human abilities of reasoning, intellect, love, fear, and memory emerge from the void of space? When a conscious, eternal God is put into the picture, something created from nothing makes sense.

Well, first off, you're assuming consciousness just sprang out of nowhere. You're also assuming that it is outside the evolutionary process...outside the brain. But now consider that consciousness is a not-yet-understood function or process of the brain. We do have evidence to support this...namely, accident victims and trauma patients. We can see rudimentary reasoning skills and conscious thought among our ancestors, such as chimpanzees. Our mental capacities are not hugely different from theirs...and ours have been honed by hundreds of thousands of years of further evolution. In this context, the need for a benevolent sky-god goes out the window.

Secondly, I believe that objective moral values are not products of evolution. Without a God giving us objective moral values, moral values are just a matter of personal taste (example "I don't enjoy torturing innocent children"). Also, immoral actions such as rape and murder are taboo not simply because they "aren't beneficial for the evolution of humans" but because they are WRONG and we all have a feeling deep down that they are wrong.

Your case for this is weak at best, baseless at worst. We have observed, time and again, that morality is relative. It varies greatly from culture to culture. Take the Manson Girls, for example. They were, at the time, 100% convinced that the horrible crimes they committed were totally moral. They showed no remorse, no regret, no guilt.

Thirdly, evil in the world and the existence of a God are not contradictory. God has given us free will so that we can choose to love him or not. Forcing us to love Him would be divine rape. God respects us so much that he lets us think for ourselves. God created the best possible world. A world with no war, disease and poverty and yet no free will would be worse than the world we live in.

Why couldn't he just wipe out even a tiny portion of the horrendous suffering and pain that billions of people experience every single day? Why would banishing suffering automatically create a lack of free will? If you think the best possible world includes millions dying from starvation every year, you need your head examined.

For the things that I don't understand yet I give God the benefit of the doubt and know because thats what faith is.

What's wrong with simply saying "I don't know, and I'm okay with that." ?

Please people, stop looking at the those who pollute Christianity but the people who are loving Christ followers and then judge Christianity.

Y'know, my beef isn't with the kindness or morality of the followers (assuming they're both), but with the level of delusion. Religious people are exactly as capable as nonreligious people, and vice versa, at being good, kind, moral do-gooders.

Y'know, my beef isn't with the kindness or morality of the followers (assuming they're both), but with the level of delusion. Religious people are exactly as capable as nonreligious people, and vice versa, at being good, kind, moral do-gooders.

Do you have any idea how cruel and ignorant it is to assume someone who believes in something other than themselves/mankind is delusional?

Surely you've come to the conclusion that the only way to remain completely unbiased in the decision making process, as far as GOD is concerned, is to just stay the hell out of the way and let us continue to suffer from the same misery we have brought down upon ourselves since the beginning of time.

Why couldn't he just wipe out even a tiny portion of the horrendous suffering and pain that billions of people experience every single day? Why would banishing suffering automatically create a lack of free will? If you think the best possible world includes millions dying from starvation every year, you need your head examined.

Because as a people we are extremely selfish, and any real proof of [its] existence would only diminish our need for independent/creative thought. We would become addicted to GOD, followed by a deep resentment for [it] having abandoned us due to our excessive whining about ALL and EVERYTHING not understood/to our liking.

What's wrong with simply saying "I don't know, and I'm okay with that." ?

I don't know, and I'm okay with that.

Originally Posted by greenhavoc

Do you have any idea how cruel and ignorant it is to assume someone who believes in something other than themselves/mankind is delusional?

Lemme ask you this: can you supply a valid reason for believing in a god in this day and age?

Surely you've come to the conclusion that the only way to remain completely unbiased in the decision making process, as far as GOD is concerned, is to just stay the hell out of the way and let us continue to suffer from the same misery we have brought down upon ourselves since the beginning of time.

Like I said, you have the right to believe whatever the hell you want. But without any evidence, it's all just so much fanciful speculation. An absurd and unnecessary hypothetical situation.

Because as a people we are extremely selfish, and any real proof of [its] existence would only diminish our need for independent/creative thought. We would become addicted to GOD, followed by a deep resentment for [it] having abandoned us due to our excessive whining about ALL and EVERYTHING not understood/to our liking.

It isn't like he has to make his presence known or anything. Just stop sending floods and tsunamis and evil, mass-murdering fuckheads that wipe out millions of people. Or how about not making viruses like smallpox and the plague? I don't think their absence would cause people to go, "Lo! We have not been infected by a lethal, incurable disease! Praise the lord, for he must exist!"

Lemme ask you this: can you supply a valid reason for believing in a god in this day and age?

Well sure I can, though I imagine it's the same reason people all over the planet have been using in every day and age. It's called deductive reasoning and it validates not only my belief, but it also validates your non belief. Sorry for the abstract, either understand it or don't.

Like I said, you have the right to believe whatever the hell you want. But without any evidence, it's all just so much fanciful speculation. An absurd and unnecessary hypothetical situation.

Doesn't make what I said any less true.

It isn't like he has to make his presence known or anything. Just stop sending floods and tsunamis and evil, mass-murdering fuckheads that wipe out millions of people. Or how about not making viruses like smallpox and the plague? I don't think their absence would cause people to go, "Lo! We have not been infected by a lethal, incurable disease! Praise the lord, for he must exist!"

It doesn't send floods. For the sake of argument, though, if [it] stopped sending bad shit our way, then this would happen ↓

and any real proof of [its] existence would only diminish our need for independent/creative thought.

God isn't difficult to figure out Mario92, stop assigning [it] human emotions and you'll see for yourself.

Originally Posted by greenhavoc

Well sure I can, though I imagine it's the same reason people all over the planet have been using in every day and age. It's called deductive reasoning and it validates not only my belief, but it also validates your non belief. Sorry for the abstract, either understand it or don't.

I hope you're not expecting people to be content with such a vague answer like "deductive reasoning." Elaboration is necessary.

Originally Posted by greenhavoc

Well sure I can, though I imagine it's the same reason people all over the planet have been using in every day and age. It's called deductive reasoning and it validates not only my belief, but it also validates your non belief. Sorry for the abstract, either understand it or don't.

What a delightful pile of bullshit.

Doesn't make what I said any less true.

Oh, you could be right, certainly. There could be a god, there could be unicorns, and there could be a portal to an enchanted bog beneath the foundations of your house. But why should any of these claims be taken at face value, without the requirement of evidence? If I told you I have the power to vaporize mountains and send floods by raising my eyebrow, you'd naturally call BS and demand proof. But if you read it in a 2000-year-old book, you accept it as-is, no questions asked. What a ridiculous double standard.

It doesn't send floods. For the sake of argument, though, if [it] stopped sending bad shit our way, then this would happen ↓
God isn't difficult to figure out Mario92, stop assigning [it] human emotions and you'll see for yourself.

You're telling me an all-powerful lord of the universe can't stop or prevent the senseless suffering of humans without revealing himself?

And the whole "you don't know how god works" cop-out is one of the saddest excuses for an argument I've ever seen. It's tantamount to looking at a convicted serial killer and going "oh, no, really, he's perfectly moral. It's just that we don't know how his mind works. He's clearly right, and the rest of the world has it back-assward."

There is no longer a legitimate excuse to believe in a god. As a rational, logical human being, clinging to this one irrational blind spot is inexcusable. If you carry an objective eye for everything else, then religion is no exception. We cannot chalk up phenomena we don't understand to a deity with no evidence. To do so is to embrace madness.

Of course, if you DO actually have some evidence, then by all means, please come forth with it. I'd like to point out that any point that goes near "Science can't explain this yet so god is real hurr durr LOLOLOLOL" doesn't count. Neither do appeals from ignorance (e.g. I can't possibly imagine this event happening without divine intervention, even though I don't actually have any tangible evidence). So, shoot.

They're really just doing it to get a bunch of thanks.

Originally Posted by epdawg62

God has given us free will so that we can choose to love him or not. Forcing us to love Him would be divine rape. God respects us so much that he lets us think for ourselves. God created the best possible world. A world with no war, disease and poverty and yet no free will would be worse than the world we live in.

We really don't have that much free will. I mean we can't do literally everything we can imagine. Why not? Why do I not have the option to grow wings but I can go shoot someone with relative ease? Even a lot of things which are technically possible are far out of the means of many people. Try telling someone lost in the desert about to die of thirst he has the free will to drink water. Yeah, sure. Good system, god. Really well thought out. Besides, how are diseases necessary for us to think for ourselves? I'll bet god just wants us to suffer so that we can grow, because of course that's the only way we can grow. Nevermind the fact that some people seem to have to suffer greatly for their entire lives, while others seem to get away with what is comparatively a slap on the wrist? Why do some people have so much growing to do? Does god work in mysterious ways or does this god idea just not make much sense?

Originally Posted by epdawg62

For the things that I don't understand yet I give God the benefit of the doubt and know because thats what faith is. Whenever I encounter something that appears to put God in the wrong, I realize that I'm the one in the wrong since I don't understand it due to my human limitations and that God is in the right.

mysterious ways ecks dee

You really have to stop and wonder how good your answer is when it's constantly introducing mysteries and contradictions that would not exist if you accepted that your answer was wrong.

Also, faith is stupid. Let me cook up an example.

Scammer: Hey man, if you give me all your money, by tomorrow I'll have it doubled for you.
Dude: Ok but how can I be sure this is the truth?
Scammer: You must have faith. Or else you're a bad person. Faith is about abandoning reason and leaving yourself vulnerable just for the heck of it.
Dude: My eyes are opened! I must have blind trust in whatever you say, even if everything is telling me to do otherwise!
Scammer: There you go, so now when your money never comes back, you'll have faith to let you know everything will be ok.

It's because Christianity is mind control. Take this for example:

Christianity says you are evil, and must be punished eternally for it. Except there's only one way out of that punishment, and that is submitting to god.

Now look at the structure of that. Christianity presents an imaginary problem, (that you're going to hell) and then provides a "solution", which is really just something to influence your behaviours (in a way that benefits the person forcing Christianity on you).


Also, people have respect for a person's right to religion, but they don't exactly respect their stupidity though.

Like Christians believe they're bad people and must be punished but OH WAIT god killed his son for you now you don't have to die! Isn't he such a loving god? Now surrender to him.

When a lot of the atheists are arguing, yes, a lot of the arguments are about more fundamentalist styles of xianity, like people who believe in noah and the flood literally. Then, some moderate christian comes around, and says things like "hey, not ALL of us are like that, you jerk!" And the things the moderate christian needs to realize are:

1) We know that!
2) YOU should be laying the smackdown on the fundies even more than the atheists, because it's YOUR good name that's being dragged through the mud by their bronze-age superstitions, and their complete "covers-his-ears-and-goes-LALALALALA" ignorance in the face of evidence for evolution.

Here, this recent video explains it really, really well:

Atheists > Christians

Duh.

That might be your problem there lil buddy, I don't need an excuse. I have my truth and you have yours, only difference between us is you inability to accept I might be right. I have accepted that you might be - I want to add something about a double standard right now, but I feel I'm not clever enough to make good use of the word.

I would like to point out that a lack of evidence is the driving force behind my atheistic beliefs. There is just no evidence for the existence of a god. That being said, I accept that you might be right. Maybe there is some psychotic god out there who creates a universe that follows natural observable laws and then punishes people who don't accept wild statements without evidence. But, you see, there is no evidence to support this.

There is no double standard. There are claims, and then there is evidence. The burden of evidence is on the one making the claim. Making a claim and then saying you must accept this claim unconditionally on absolute faith or be punished with eternal hellfire is ridiculous. The kinds of things people do when brainwashed into fearing such authority is unbelievable. Girls are told that the menstrual cycle is a disease, condoms will send you to hell, homosexuals should be stoned, and sexuality is a sin.

I don't reject the possibility of god any more or less than I reject the possibility of invisible pink unicorns. You can't provide evidence for something that is unobservable, and you can't use the unexplained as evidence for a higher being.

I don't start getting mad until religious persons start trying to push their beliefs on others or start getting offended by true statements.