Thread: I love Satan

Originally Posted by Xei

So you wouldn't have told Hitler to think otherwise because that might have made him sad?

inb4 Godwin's law.

Lol such extremes with you Xei. Why does everyone pull the Hitler card when people speak of peace and goodwill toward men?

Hitler massacred many. It's pretty obvious that that had to be taken care of. My point was meant to mainly illustrate why it's not necessary to "need" to be right all the time. There are jewels in a mans thoughts and opinions. Some of which we'll never know if we only engage others in conversation for the sake of stroking our own egos.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Lol such extremes with you Xei. Why does everyone pull the Hitler card when people speak of peace and goodwill toward men?

Hitler massacred many. It's pretty obvious that that had to be taken care of. My point was meant to mainly illustrate why it's not necessary to "need" to be right all the time. There are jewels in a mans thoughts and opinions. Some of which we'll never know if we only engage others in conversation for the sake of stroking our own egos.

Pulling the Hitler card has become cliche yes but I think he is trying to convey (and this has been discussed in R/S many many times) that there is nothing inherent about a belief that demands respect. If I believe that Bugs Bunny lives under my bed but I cannot provide adequate evidence proving this you would have absolutely no reason whatsoever for just believing me. If you demand evidence that Bugs Bunny is under my bed does that mean you are disrespecting my belief?

Either way, the hitler card STILL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JEFFS ORIGINAL QUESTION.

Originally Posted by Auron

Either way, the hitler card STILL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JEFFS ORIGINAL QUESTION.

To answer the original question, I don't believe in Satan so I really don't have much to contribute to this thread other than nit-picking peoples posts and trying to bring the thread off topic. Just kidding.

Yeah, what stormcrow said, although the emphasis was on the moral angle, not the metaphysical. If somebody believes in something really abhorrent, you shouldn't feel obliged to respect that because it's a 'sacred abhorrence'. You should challenge it... this applies to anything.

Originally Posted by Auron

Either way, the hitler card STILL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JEFFS ORIGINAL QUESTION.

Nor do any of your unhelpful rants about any interesting tangents which emerge.

Originally Posted by Xei

Nor do any of your unhelpful rants about any interesting tangents which emerge.

Which came first? The so called "rant" or the posts that clearly didn't answer the original posters statements?

Originally Posted by Jeff777

If it comes at a price of making others sad, why do it? For our own dick tugging purposes? Why do we feel the need to reaffirm our beliefs or lack thereof on an internet forum and tear down others? For me it just comes down to what affect am I leaving on people. Are people better off for having met you, or worse off? I'm just trying to understand a mans mind, not tell him its inferior.

You've gained my interest.

Trampling on Christians' beliefs is both fun and productive. What if we all had false beliefs? Then we'd all be living needlessly in fear of the invisible flying spaghetti monster just because somebody thought him up thousands of years ago and wrote a book about it. False beliefs are useless, and they only serve to confuse us. And the fact that Christians are constantly proselytizing others to join their church only adds to the delusional mass hysteria. Provoking Christians to doubt their religion by opposing their beliefs could greatly benefit them, even if it does come at the expense of a few hurt feelings.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Trampling on Christians' beliefs is both fun and productive...

I am not Christian but I stopped reading there. I hope that you grow up and out of that one day.

Satan/Lucifer was a huge headache for me growing up! Not to mention so much fear revolving around him.

Anyways, theres so many questions regarding the relationship between God and Lucifer/Satan, but theyre not really answered in the bible! New Age has offered fun answers, that is, if you dont mind story time.

First off, Lucifer is not the duality of God. Lucifer is not the lord of evil. Lucifer is virtually powerless.

Lucifer and Satan? Why the two names? It means they are not the same person, consciousness, or thing, though they are connected. Lucifer is an angel created by God. Angels, like humans, were created with duality - this sense of separation. And while Lucifer isn't separate from God, Lucifer for the time being can believe he is.

Both angels and humans have the power to create. Angels create in the same way we create in dreams. Our ideas and emotions manifest. The angels live in the mental and emotional realms talked about in astral projection. Anyways, important thing to remember is - the thoughts of angels literally manifest in their reality!

The angels created Satan.

It all started with an idea. The idea was to prove that they could create something separate from God, to prove to God that Gods model of reality was wrong. This was Lucifers idea. Well nothing can be separate from God. And therefore what they created was a nothingness. But this nothingness was fed by the thoughts, the ideas, the emotions, of millions of conscious angels for millions and millions and millions of years. And this idea, sorta has a life of its own now. The most powerful dream character in history, Satan!

Satan became manifest in the world of angels, so much, Satan declared himself their god! He was real to them. Scary. And powerful. But really. . . . . he was still just a delusion.

Being the first to concieve of this idea, Lucifer became attached to Satan. But they arent one and the same. Lucifer didn't intend to create something so malicious and dark. But that didn't stop Lucifer from being fooled by his own minds eye creation.

But anyways, moving on!

THE FALL!! Here is the real reason why Lucifer became so pissed at humanity.

This Satan dream character running around in the dream like realm of angels is totally making a mess of things. This dream like realm of the angels is intimately linked to all other realities, including our own. At this point in time, were not even ape people. Earth is barely just growing its first trees when Satan already existed. But this Satan, embodied everything that is not God. Which is bad news for us, because in this story, we are the body of God!!

Satan is like a black hole, sucking away at reality to a nothingness.

And Satan was only becoming more and more and more powerful. Because the angels were dumb and literally waged war against Satan. Like a dream character, giving the dream character attention can only make the character stronger!

This Satan delusion was threatening the whole of creation. God acted in a way in a way God has never acted before. God took away the ability to co-create from the angels who were led by Lucifer. No more could their thoughts or emotions create. This was done to save themselves from their own creation. And to save the rest of creation from the black hole of Satan.

It was not to punish.

By separating them from their capacity to create, the idea was that Satan will disappear. Just like a dream character disappears when you turn away.

Do you see where this is going? The angels create thoughts. Ideas. Emotions.

And ego identities.

Without Gods light to sustain creation, everything that they created would be un-created, including their identities. Being no different, we can understand how the angels felt - Like they were going to cease existing! When really it was only their ego that would die, but tell that to your ego!

Trying to create Satan wasn't the rebellion. By the law of free will, they had the right to create anything they so desired.

The true rebellion was when they refused to give up their false egos. This was the unforgivable sin described in the bible. When God says your ego is so fucked up it needs to be undone, then its going to be undone and there is nothing you can do about it.

Many things simultaneously happened on this dark day. Including the creation of what we call hell. That place where you are separate from the light. Where you feel separate from everything that is. Lucifer was pissed at God! Now he rebels! He refuses to give up his ego, believing God has wronged him. He conceives of a plan. If he can no longer receive the light, then he will steal it!

So the fallen angels start stealing the light from beings like ourselves.

But things are going array. Lucifer wanted to preserve his identity. But the fallen angels are falling apart. Their egos, tearing, melting away, scarcely anything left of them. They became shadows of their former glory. Soul sucking vampires who dont even remember anymore why they soul suck. On top of that, the lies that they spread to us, the lie of Satan, kept Satan and other demonic dream characters alive.

There is a famous image of Lucifer being tied in chains in the lowest depths of hell, weaping, because hes realized how much hes fallen, how we can never win, and how much he misses the damn light. In this story, Lucifer finally gave up. Surrendered his ego. The angel named Lucifer is no more. The consciousness within has been released to live again.

Satan still remains, because people believe in Satan. But in the bible, God promises that at some future time, Satan and all the demons will be destroyed and cease to exist. God is not talking about the angels that he created because they are immortal consciousness. But illusions running amok, whove fooled themselves into thinking they truly exist (egos)

Oh and....

Many of the fallen angels realized they couldn't win, and/or/ were disgusted by their brothers and sisters who willfully became soul sucking vampires. Instead they gave up their angelic egos and agreed to be reborn as humans and other physical beings across the universe instead. But the memory of losing the light, what felt like total abondonment from God runs deep. Humans who were once fallen angels are actually more likely to be God fearing than any group. So afraid to lose the light, theyre the ones running the church.

Now I call that a story filled with irony!

niiiiiiiiiigggghhhhhhht!

Originally Posted by Jeff777

I am not Christian but I stopped reading there. I hope that you grow up and out of that one day.

Shame; the important part was actually after the first sentence.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Provoking Christians to doubt their religion by opposing their beliefs could greatly benefit them, even if it does come at the expense of a few hurt feelings.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

I am not Christian but I stopped reading there. I hope that you grow up and out of that one day.

Jefferey, imagine that we are eating dinner and I have a big chunk of spinach stuck between my front teeth. I think we can both agree that someone with a big piece of spinach stuck in their teeth looks like a complete idiot, its embarrassing for you by proximity. Would it be a childish move to keep me ignorant of the fact that I have food in my teeth?

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Jefferey, imagine that we are eating dinner and I have a big chunk of spinach stuck between my front teeth. I think we can both agree that someone with a big piece of spinach stuck in their teeth looks like a complete idiot, its embarrassing for you by proximity. Would it be a childish move to keep me ignorant of the fact that I have food in my teeth?

It's Jeff. Not Jefferey.

And to answer your question, no, it wouldn't be childish for me to help you save face by alerting you to the wedged spinach. I understand what point you're trying to make but even contextually, the spinach analogy is almost entirely irrelevant.

I don't necessarily agree with you MindGames. An uncle of mine was an alcoholic and would always get in trouble with the law to the point where he had his license taken away. It wasn't until he found a local church that he finally got his act together thanks to their help. Now I'm not praising all of the Christianity, it's just that when you move away from the "Fear God" thing, it becomes a great "tool" in a sense that allows us to improve upon ourselves as individuals. Which is what Satan can considered. He is described as the evils that we more or less want to avoid to reach that glimmering paradise we call heaven. However Gnosticism, which predated Christianity, explains that Satan is in fact actually a women by the name of "Sophia" who actually gave birth to God himself. In short, they say God is actually evil/imperfect and keeps us humans in the dark when it comes to spiritual knowledge. Hence, the banishing of Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden and that Sophia was actually the snake. So it's certainly debatable what exactly is "Satan."

The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of god, Jesus and mo hammed and other mainstream religion than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people, including myself, don't like that statement, but the truth of it is undeniable. - James R Lewis, Ph.D. in Religious Studies

It actually infuriates me that a handful of catholic priests have turned out to be child molesters.. yet people forgive and continue to support the church. What a bunch of bullshit!

Originally Posted by juroara

massive wall of text

Holy shit, you're serious.

It is odd that Lucifer is described as being the most beautiful angel and basically the crown of God's creation before he created humans. The interesting part is that he still developed pride and hunger for his creators power. Now, the Bible states that humans were created as Gods image. Were angels not? They are supposed to be more perfect, thus closer to God, than humans could ever strife for. Another curious thing is why would God not outright destroy Lucifer for rebellion, but to cast him away and let him influence his latter creations, us. Is it because he loved Lucifer despite his arrogance and pride?

I can easily understand why we like to see Lucifer as the devil. The eternal conflict between good and evil is a good excuse to explain world as it is. Still, if God is supposed to be omnipotent, he could end this war if he wanted to. ( which leads us to the big time debate about essence of God). But the most simple explanation is that Lucifer is merely a scapegoat where we can focus our hatred, fear and anguish on. It is same everywhere. To unite a group of people they need a common goal. Or common enemy.

Of course, I see Lucifer and the whole Bible is figurative tale of morals and teachings so Lucifer for me is just collection of human vices and weakness which we should overcome to be higher beings.

Originally Posted by Xivienne

It actually infuriates me that a handful of catholic priests have turned out to be child molesters.. yet people forgive and continue to support the church. What a bunch of bullshit!

The actions of a few don't justify the hatred of many.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

It's Jeff. Not Jefferey.

And to answer your question, no, it wouldn't be childish for me to help you save face by alerting you to the wedged spinach. I understand what point you're trying to make but even contextually, the spinach analogy is almost entirely irrelevant.

Ya admittedly it was a pretty terrible analogy but not a terrible as having spinach in your teeth. Sorry about calling you Jefferey, I didn't mean to offend you or anything.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Ya admittedly it was a pretty terrible analogy but not a terrible as having spinach in your teeth. Sorry about calling you Jefferey, I didn't mean to offend you or anything.

None taken.

It's a pity Satan didn't write his version of the bible. It would have been incredibly interesting.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Trampling on Christians' beliefs is both fun and productive.

I pity you.

Speaking of angels, demons, and Lucifer, I remember reading somewhere that it never actually says in the bible that Lucifer rules Hell.
Also, I don't remember exactly when I heard this little tidbit of information, though I know it was recently, I heard somewhere that the typical representations of angels that we see, beautiful, majestic people with huge wingspans, was also never in the bible. One of the angels was actually described as "a wheel within a wheel, with eyes on all sides." That's a paraphrase, I can't remember it exactly word for word.

here you go Jeff...

HYMN TO SATAN - By Aleister Crowley

I ADORE Thee, King of Evil,
By the body Thou hast fashioned
In the likeness of a devil.
By its purity impassioned
I adore Thee, King of Evil!

I adore Thee, Lord of Malice,
By the soul that Thou hast moulded
Lovely as a lily-chalice
To the sombre sun unfolded.
I adore Thee, Lord of Malice!

By its thirst, the cruel craving
For things infinite, unheard-of,
Dreams devouring and depraving,
Songs no God may guess a word of,
Songs of crime and songs of craving ---

By the drear eyes of the devil
Bleak and sterile as they glitter
I adore Thee, King of Evil,
With these lips, as dry and bitter
As the drear eyes of the devil!

I adore Thee, I invoke Thee,
I abase myself before Thee,
By the spells that once awoke the
Lust of Chaos I adore Thee,
I adore Thee, I invoke Thee!

As usual the xtians got it all wrong.

Satan is a hebrew word (Sai Tan) that means "The Accuser" or "The adversary". It is an office not a being. Any of the arch angels according to judaism could be assigned by YHVH to be the Saitan and then test the righteous (such as the story of Job) - a bit of a dick move. I mean why would and omipresent all knowing god need to test his followers ? Wouldnt/Shoudnt he already know?

Lucifer is latin for "the bearer of light" - doesnt exactly sound like the lord of darkness eh? Interestingly the "Barer of light" or Lucifer is also one of the old names for Venus - the morning star - the brightest object in the sky before dawn. In Rome at the time Xtianity was getting going was a temple of venus - it employed 1000s of temple sacred prostitues - sex was literally holy in the pagan world. The xtians of course hate sex and treat women as property - so female gods and sacred sex were "evil" - hence the pgan goddess of love and sex becomes the xtian bogey man. Sad really.

The gnostics such as the Cathars, as correctly mentioned earlier in the thread, belived that YHVH (the judeo/xtian god) was not god - but rather an insane arch angel who beleives it is god. They called this as I rememebr the Demiurge - and beleive there is a higher more benign creator who also includes female aspects (the sophia). The xtians didnt like this of course and the gnostics were all put to the sword - such as the siege and massacre of Montsegur.