Split from: DV Christians Unite! (Christian Only Thread)

[TheSilverWolf]

I don't know if it was this forum or another one, but one guy brought up an interesting point. If you read through the bible and compare all the nasty things that god has done, and all the bad things that satan did... it makes satan look like the good guy. Satan barely did anything bad... he tempted jesus to eat when he was starving... he tempted him to jump off a cliff to prove he was really the son of god etc... He even got Adam and Eve to eat the fruit to learn good and bad. Why would he do that?? Maybe so they could see that God is the evil one, and Satan isn't??? While on the other hand, god wipes out civilizations... tells people to rape, kill babies and much more. I'm going to have to be on Satan's side Spoken like a Satanist, if you ask me. I don't know if you are but that's exactly the sort of justification that they would use to be on the side of evil. What has Satan done? He compels us to do his evil for him. He tricks us into doing things such as murder, such as rape, such as maim. Satan is not known as the "Great Deceiver" for nothing, and I'm with Darkk when he says if you say something like you did, don't blame the Christians for the ridicule you receive based on such a statement. I might point out that it's not GOD who goes around possessing people like Demon's have been known to do (though there are branches of Christianity who don't take demonic possession seriously). God doesn't force us to do evil, or even tempt us to do evil. Read what Jesus preached when he walked the earth. he always taught about loving one another, about forgiving one another when you are wronged, about how through him, God will forgive us of our sins. He taught us not to judge one another, not to hate. Satan is the one who preaches self interest and self serving and self worship, Satan is the one who tempts us to commit evil atrocities and horrendous acts of violence. How many times has a Christian ceremony ended in bloodshed? How many times have true Satanist ceremonies ended in Bloodshed? It's because Satan is about evil and God is about love and fighting evil. ~SilverWolf~

[Xei]

So really, my bad for the insults, but please understand that the quote I posted is true and simple, it doesnt need anything to back it up. This was what I meant by prevarication. How can a meaningful statement be true and yet require no evidence? If it required no evidence then it would be an empty statement. But if you thought it were an empty statement then I imagine you wouldn't have posted it, as you have done a couple of times. Spoken like a Satanist, if you ask me. I wouldn't call myself a Satanist, but I would express concern as to how you didn't even think "wipes out civilizations... tells people to rape, kill babies and much more" was something that needed repudiation.

[JoannaB]

I did not intend on participating in this thread but I feel I need to point out that some Christians do not believe that the parts of the bible where God ordained the eradication of another people and the killing of children etc can possibly be true. I am a Christian. However, I believe that the bible was written by human beings, and they had their own agendas. The part of the bible that attributes to God the blessing of such atrocities cannot be true according to my belief: the human beings who were in charge of Israel committed genocide at that time, and genocide is not right whether it is done by the Israelites or by the Nazis. Those who win wars write the history books justifying what they did. And the bible is many things, among them it is a history book and at times also political propaganda. I believe that there is much truth in the bible, but not everything in the bible is true. It is difficult for Christians who believe the way I do to figure out what parts are right and what parts are wrong at times. However, this passage is not one of the difficult ones: God cannot have ordered the Israelites to eradicate the Amalekites. This is not something a loving God could have done. If God did order this, then the God I believe in does not exist, and I am wrong to worship him. However, I believe I am right to worship God, and I believe that this is a clear example of the bible being shockingly wrong because it was written by human beings. Edit: Oh, and it would not matter what the Amalekites would do in the future no matter how much God knows the future, people do not get punished for things they did not do yet. Just as an infant who dies will not go to hell even if he could have become a serial killer if he had lived, so the eradication of a people because of something that they could or would do in the future cannot be justified.

[Sageous]

^^ Well said, JoannaB! Can I just add that I also think that one of Jesus' primary missions during his time on earth was to diminish the importance of all that was written before and try to turn people's focus away from all those stories, prophesies, rules, and "truths" written by men, and then turn that focus back onto what really matters: God, our place in His world, His love for us, and how important it is that we love one another. That went well.

[Descensus]

I did not intend on participating in this thread but I feel I need to point out that some Christians do not believe that the parts of the bible where God ordained the eradication of another people and the killing of children etc can possibly be true. I am a Christian. However, I believe that the bible was written by human beings, and they had their own agendas. The part of the bible that attributes to God the blessing of such atrocities cannot be true according to my belief: the human beings who were in charge of Israel committed genocide at that time, and genocide is not right whether it is done by the Israelites or by the Nazis. Those who win wars write the history books justifying what they did. And the bible is many things, among them it is a history book and at times also political propaganda. I believe that there is much truth in the bible, but not everything in the bible is true. It is difficult for Christians who believe the way I do to figure out what parts are right and what parts are wrong at times. However, this passage is not one of the difficult ones: God cannot have ordered the Israelites to eradicate the Amalekites. This is not something a loving God could have done. If God did order this, then the God I believe in does not exist, and I am wrong to worship him. However, I believe I am right to worship God, and I believe that this is a clear example of the bible being shockingly wrong because it was written by human beings. Edit: Oh, and it would not matter what the Amalekites would do in the future no matter how much God knows the future, people do not get punished for things they did not do yet. Just as an infant who dies will not go to hell even if he could have become a serial killer if he had lived, so the eradication of a people because of something that they could or would do in the future cannot be justified. What prompted you to adopt the idea that God is a loving deity? Was it the Bible?

[JoannaB]

What prompted you to adopt the idea that God is a loving deity? Was it the Bible? Parts of the bible (mostly in the New Testament), also community understanding (church and believers interpretation), and my own personal spiritual understanding coming from within myself (I have a strong faith in our ability to discern spiritual truth by looking into ourselves and others, that God is present in us and human conscience is a representation of God's truth (another way of phrasing it is that the Holy Spirit is present in every human being, and can guide one to discern spiritual truth). I believe in a living faith which is not written in an unchanging book that was completed 2000 years ago, but rather a faith that we Christians - correction: we human beings since this is not limited to Christians - can grow to understand better in many ways, and the bible is only one tool available for understanding that faith, but it is a flawed tool. However, just because it is flawed, does not mean that nothing in it is right. It's much like reading any other accounts written by human beings of anything that was witnessed by many people: the eyewitness accounts will not all be accurate, some will be false, some will be so mixed up with the "witnesses" agendas as to have no resemblance to the actual events witnessed, but that does not necessarily mean that all eyewitness accounts are false, just flawed and hard to analyze.

[Descensus]

Why do you favor the parts that portray God as loving but reject the parts that portray him as hateful and genocidal? Why could God NOT have ordered the genocide of the Amalekites, for instance? You say it's because God is a loving deity, but I don't understand what makes the negative descriptions of God less credible than the positive ones.

[JoannaB]

It's a matter of faith, what one believes to be true. I believe that to some extent I can discern whether something is true or not when I hear it, and so can anyone else. Of course, this is also a flawed tool, since people do not all believe the same things to be true, so obviously some of us are wrong and some of us confuse our conscience with our wishful thinking. I sincerely hope that I am not wrong in my belief that God is a loving God. I believe I have felt God's love, and seen manifestations of God's love acting through other people. However, I could be delusional, there is always that risk. Doubt and faith are two sides of one coin at times. I have strong faith, and yet I do at time grapple with strong doubt, which to me only makes my faith stronger, because it is my belief that faith without doubt is too static and not a living faith. Edit: Btw, other tools for discerning spiritual truth for me include: meditation (which I wish I were good at), prayer, intuition, discussions with other believers, discussions with atheists, discussions with children, observing human interactions, observing nature, my own experience and experience of others over time, and there are many more. As I said for me the bible is just one tool of many for spiritual growth and there are many paths to discovering spiritual understanding. I believe that many beliefs that appear contradictory and different may not actually be so, and I believe that there are many truths in many different religions and spiritual/moral philosophies.

[Sageous]

If I might butt in again: Why do you favor the parts that portray God as loving but reject the parts that portray him as hateful and genocidal? Why could God NOT have ordered the genocide of the Amalekites, for instance? You say it's because God is a loving deity, but I don't understand what makes the negative descriptions of God less credible than the positive ones. The impression I got from her post was that JoannaB was saying that men chose to do genocidal acts, and then said "God told them to do it." This would, I think, allow really bad things to make their way into the Bible -- in the name of covering the backsides of the folks who actually did the bad things -- alongside the good things about God that may actually be based on His word and intentions. Also, I think JoannaB is representing the sense of Christianity that Jesus was looking to install; and this sense can easily be found in the New Testament, which, theoretically anyway, is the primary Bible source for Christian faith.

[JoannaB]

Exactly, thank you, Sageous, for clarifying that. Yes, that is what I believe.

[Tye]

After reading through this thread and just seeing what people think in general, I think the argument of this thread is redundant. People aren't going to change one way or the other likely no matter what one side shows the other. At this point I find it best to just accept the people are different and not everyone is going to be atheist or christian simply by persuasion and discussion. Belief is not a choice, I used to be Catholic and now I'm atheist, I can't just choose to go back and believe in god. The way I look at it is if someone realizes that they what they believe may not be true and asks me what I'd think I'd tell them religion is bullshit and good for you for deciding on your own, but I'm not going to try to convert or make religious people stop believing even if I think what they believe in is horseshit. Tldr version Accept that people are different and you won't be able to convert them one way or the other.

[JoannaB]

Of course, nobody is going to convert anybody else here! At best, we can learn what others think, hopefully learn to understand others better, take new ideas into consideration, and learn more about ourselves in the process of trying to explain to others what we believe.

[Michael]

Spoken like a Satanist, if you ask me. I don't know if you are but that's exactly the sort of justification that they would use to be on the side of evil. What has Satan done? He compels us to do his evil for him. He tricks us into doing things such as murder, such as rape, such as maim. Satan is not known as the "Great Deceiver" for nothing, and I'm with Darkk when he says if you say something like you did, don't blame the Christians for the ridicule you receive based on such a statement. I might point out that it's not GOD who goes around possessing people like Demon's have been known to do (though there are branches of Christianity who don't take demonic possession seriously). God doesn't force us to do evil, or even tempt us to do evil. Read what Jesus preached when he walked the earth. he always taught about loving one another, about forgiving one another when you are wronged, about how through him, God will forgive us of our sins. He taught us not to judge one another, not to hate. Satan is the one who preaches self interest and self serving and self worship, Satan is the one who tempts us to commit evil atrocities and horrendous acts of violence. How many times has a Christian ceremony ended in bloodshed? How many times have true Satanist ceremonies ended in Bloodshed? It's because Satan is about evil and God is about love and fighting evil. ~SilverWolf~ Most "satanists" that I've met are actually just atheists. They don't believe in god or satan. And you must mean for me to read what people wrote about jesus, hundreds of years after his death.... because there is no way for me to read what jesus actually said. Why does god have to fight evil if it's omnipotent? and if god can predict the future... then it's his fault for anybody that goes to hell. he knows what's going to happen before they exist. I do agree with the text on christ's teachings. And when he says "through me" I don't think he meant that you should worship him etc.. I think he meant that you should do as he does and reach his state of mind.

[Darkmatters]

Tldr version Accept that people are different and you won't be able to convert them one way or the other. Not true. Many people do convert, often because of conversations with atheists. Many callers to The Atheist Experience say they used to be believers, but they had discussions with atheists who kept pointing out the logical inconsistencies of the Bible. Usually of course it doesn't happen right away, but many of them say they come away unable to stop thinking about it and over a period of months or even years they change their stance. In fact that's exactly how it happened for Matt Dilahunty, the main host of the show, who used to be a minister or preacher or something.

[DarkKiky0]

I did not intend on participating in this thread but I feel I need to point out that some Christians do not believe that the parts of the bible where God ordained the eradication of another people and the killing of children etc can possibly be true. I am a Christian. However, I believe that the bible was written by human beings, and they had their own agendas. The part of the bible that attributes to God the blessing of such atrocities cannot be true according to my belief: the human beings who were in charge of Israel committed genocide at that time, and genocide is not right whether it is done by the Israelites or by the Nazis. Those who win wars write the history books justifying what they did. And the bible is many things, among them it is a history book and at times also political propaganda. So, it's not possible for God to have ordered the eradication of the Amalekites, but it's perfectly accepted that he destroyed Saddam and Gomorrah, not to mention flooded the entire world, eradicating everyone except Noah and his family. The Amalekites worshipped false gods and did blasphemous things just like the people of Saddam and Gomorrah and the entire world. They knew what they were doing, and were warned, but did all those things anyway. Things in the old testament were very different then the new testament. In the old testament they sacrificed animals instead of praying, not to mention what happened with Job, which was condoned by God. Did you know that the phrase "An eye for an eye." is in the bibles old testament. When Jesus died for our sins things changed, he wouldn't condone those things now of course. It is possible that they used the excuse that God commanded it, but then again it's also not. I'm a religious, God loving person but as the bible says, Gods ways are above ours and we have to trust his higher judgment and know that not everything he does we can fully understand.

[TheSilverWolf]

I think what you said Darkk, is something very important that non-believers often miss. People view the Bible as one giant book, which it is, but they fail to account the two very different era's; pre-Jesus and post-Jesus. Prior to Jesus, one had to perform animal sacrifices to be forgiven by God (if my understanding of that is true anyway; I don't believe prayer was enough in those days, and animal sacrifice was once a very common practice among Christians. That's what it seems to be, anyway). This ended after the New Testament, what one could call the second part of the Bible. Jesus made it to where we could be forgiven our sins simply by asking, and by being truly repentant of them. In a sense, God changed, becoming a much more forgiving God. Even Jesus acknowledged the change from the old "An Eye For An Eye" mentality to one of forgiveness. ~SilverWolf~

[Descensus]

In a sense, God changed, becoming a much more forgiving God. I won't see you running around here claiming God is perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent then?

[Universal Mind]

God is a lot nicer now because he FINALLY went to rehab and got help with his meth addiction. That guy lost his mind for a while there. I suspected that something wasn't right when he drowned the world, but I didn't really start coming out of denial until he sacrificed himself to himself. That was a red flag.

[TimeDragon97]

I think what you said Darkk, is something very important that non-believers often miss. People view the Bible as one giant book, which it is, but they fail to account the two very different era's; pre-Jesus and post-Jesus. Prior to Jesus, one had to perform animal sacrifices to be forgiven by God (if my understanding of that is true anyway; I don't believe prayer was enough in those days, and animal sacrifice was once a very common practice among Christians. That's what it seems to be, anyway). This ended after the New Testament, what one could call the second part of the Bible. Jesus made it to where we could be forgiven our sins simply by asking, and by being truly repentant of them. In a sense, God changed, becoming a much more forgiving God. Even Jesus acknowledged the change from the old "An Eye For An Eye" mentality to one of forgiveness. ~SilverWolf~ Here's what I really don't get about Christianity: why doesn't God just forgive? Why does he need death to forgive? You seriously believe that God requirement for forgiveness was killing livestock? "Hey, you did a bad thing, but if you kill a goat, I'll forgive you."

[Universal Mind]

Who came up with the idea of sacrificing animals? A. The infinitely intelligent creator of the universe B. Some dumb ass primitive humans Hmmm, that's a hard one.

[Sageous]

^^ That just says it all, doesn't it?

[DarkKiky0]

If this thread is going to go down the way of insulting God and making jokes that you know will offend Christians, then I think my time here is done. I have said all I really wanted to anyway, and apparently it's not being taken seriously, except by a few, so it was nice and all, but I'm good. If you really don't want to hear the word of God on a Christian thread then no one can force you, I have done all I can do.

[Sageous]

^^ So... questioning anything about God is an insult? You'd think God wouldn't be that sensitive. Or his followers. For what it's worth, I'm a christian, and didn't feel like anyone was trying to insult God (again, somehow I don't think He cares much about insults anyway; he's probably above all that). Unless failing to agree exactly with what you believe, or not agreeing with everything you say, is an insult? If so, that is very sad; and remarkably unchristian. Take care.

[Darkmatters]

Really you can't blame the Hebraic religion for doing the sacrifice thing - it was very fashionable among all the religions of the time.

[OneUp]

This was what I meant by prevarication. How can a meaningful statement be true and yet require no evidence? If it required no evidence then it would be an empty statement. But if you thought it were an empty statement then I imagine you wouldn't have posted it, as you have done a couple of times. I wouldn't call myself a Satanist, but I would express concern as to how you didn't even think "wipes out civilizations... tells people to rape, kill babies and much more" was something that needed repudiation. You really seem as though you have no idea what your talking about. Look at the quote, it is only making a comparison. There is NO evidence in a comparison, stop trying to tell me there is. It is a simple comparison which also declares something more. I can say "Dr. Pepper is good" and theres no evidence for it other than my taste and my opinion and yet its true. Your argument against it is pointless. Please gaze at the quote for a few minutes and then realize that what you are saying makes no sense. There is no such thing as an empty statement, any statement is a statement because is states something, your claim was not well thought on it being an "empty statement". Here's what I really don't get about Christianity: why doesn't God just forgive? Why does he need death to forgive? You seriously believe that God requirement for forgiveness was killing livestock? "Hey, you did a bad thing, but if you kill a goat, I'll forgive you." Thats why Jesus came, to end all of the sacrifices. Its sad seeing people with certain mindsets comlpetly doubting something just because they dont understand it. A finite mind can only barely understand the infinite. In the Old testament if God just forgave with no punishment, literally no one would learn, likewise for todays society pertaining to jail. Then in the new testament Jesus came to end all the killing of animals and punishments. Jesus wasnt sacrificed? In the Bible Jesus states that he knows why he has come to earth and his whole purpose. Why do you think he preached and did everything that he did?