Thread: Dreams of Jews loving Hitler as Christians love their genocidal God.

I'm an agnostic, but here goes...
The argument is God gives humans free will to choose evil or good. Because when humans choose good then that means something, that has value.
Otherwise if God pulled all the strings then we're just puppets. No meaning, purpose or value whatsoever.

Now, God created the system where it was possible for humans to choose evil and hurt people. So you could call that a flawed design if you want. But the alternative is what, no free will?
Better for there just to be no existence at all I suppose, eh?

I'll decline commenting specifically on the Jewish/Hitler stuff, war history really bores me. Especially US civil war.

Originally Posted by Artie J

I'm an agnostic, but here goes...
The argument is God gives humans free will to choose evil or good. Because when humans choose good then that means something, that has value.
Otherwise if God pulled all the strings then we're just puppets. No meaning, purpose or value whatsoever.

Now, God created the system where it was possible for humans to choose evil and hurt people. So you could call that a flawed design if you want. But the alternative is what, no free will?
Better for there just to be no existence at all I suppose, eh?

I'll decline commenting specifically on the Jewish/Hitler stuff, war history really bores me. Especially US civil war.

Thanks. I did not include it for the history. Just the irony.

As an agnostic, you might gain something from this following.

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

O Necessary Sin of Adam (Does Christian Theology Need Adam & Eve?) - YouTube

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

Magazine - Can Babies Tell Right From Wrong? - nytimes.com/video - YouTube

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

1. I don't believe God sends people or anyone or anything to hell, or punishes for that matter

2. I don't believes God justifies any genocidal act

3. In the concept of Highest Power-Highest Intelligence-Highest Love, it is not possible for a human to have MORE compassion than that concept of God

4. therefore if you feel something is morally wrong out of compassion, so does THAT God

5. Omnipresence, try harder to understand that. Harm the least of these and you harm God. Yes, that part is actually in the bible.

6. Free will, yes, free will. We live in a universe where anything goes, where anything that is possible will eventually happen. Every horrible thing. Every beautiful thing. Everything.

7. No one has to justify their belief or worship of God to you. No one. Not a single soul anywhere on this earth has to prove anything to you.

"If you are a Christian or Muslim, please justify why you bend the knee to a God that does not deserve that title."
That's YOUR issue with God, not theirs.

Now then, if you really want to talk God, then you need to be quiet and ask theists what it is that they actually believe in. Each theist, individually, one on one.

Originally Posted by juroara

1. I don't believe God sends people or anyone or anything to hell, or punishes for that matter.

You have a new age non-judgmental all-inclusive, loveable and fuzzy God.
Christian dogma is ripe with damnation, insufficiency, conflict and contradiction.
You're comparing apples and snakes.

But speaking to the concept of evil is simply competition, I don't think that's a complete definition.
Is evil a mental disorder?
Doing wrong to someone else even if there is no survival advantage.
When seeing someone else suffer brings you pleasure. An illogical aberrant mental process, some kind of empathy disconnect in the brain.

Originally Posted by Artie J

You have a new age non-judgmental all-inclusive, loveable and fuzzy God.
Christian dogma is ripe with damnation, insufficiency, conflict and contradiction.
You're comparing apples and snakes.

Actually, my belief in God was shaped through Christian mysticism. And no, its really not apples and snakes. Its the difference between Christian DOGMA and Christian spirituality. There is Christian mysticism which for whatever reason, forums like this one, like to pretend don't exist. But Christian mysticism is BIG and as old as Christianity. Its not new.

Let me give you an example of just how fluffy and loveable the Catholic God can be to thousands of Catholics worldwide. There is a special necklace that lots of Catholics wear, this necklace is a promise. The promise was made by Mother Mary, that whoever wears this necklace will enter the kingdom of heaven, easy as pie!

Sounds pretty simple right? Wear the necklace and go to heaven. At first, the young catholic might be afraid to ever take off the necklace, for fear of damnation. But eventually, one day, that catholic might understand the mysticism behind the promise. That going to heaven is as simple as believing in heaven.

When that Catholic understands that they can go to heaven by simply believing they can go to heaven, they no longer have any need to wear the necklace or fear taking it off!

To this Catholic, God transforms to a non-judgmental and all-inclusive loving God! In Puerto Rico, which is very catholic, there is a song about how simple and easy it is to go to heaven. The lyrics say, all you have to do is be like a child! In other words, children aren't concerning themselves with a judgemental hateful God. They are just enjoying life and living in the moment.

I understand that hell fire and brimstone is the dogma of the Christianity. But for as long as Christianity has been around, there has been Christian mysticism reforming it. And you can sum it up as Jesus vs Paul.......PAULISM. For Christian mystics, the church has denied Christ at every turn and follows the delusions of Paulism.

Just how different is God to this Christian mystic who rejects Paulism? Drastically different. Let me give you an example. Who was it that said "Believe I died on a cross for your sins and was resurrected, or burn in hell forever!!!"

Who said that? Paulism. Who has never said those words? Jesus. To the Christian Mystic, this changes everything. It changes the true purpose of Jesus teachings, his mission, his death, his resurrection, everything. And to those Christians, which are many, it transforms God to a much more loving and all-inclusive God.

Point is, I get it. You have this old testament God. Hellfire and Brimstone. And you have Paulism God, which is basically still old testament God, worship cross or burn in hell.

And then you have modern day christians, many of which do not subscribe to old testament God and reject Paulism. So what God do these Christians worship and love? Not one described in this thread. Which is probably why the Christians of this forum aren't participating in this thread....

Originally Posted by juroara

1. I don't believe God sends people or anyone or anything to hell, or punishes for that matter

2. I don't believes God justifies any genocidal act

3. In the concept of Highest Power-Highest Intelligence-Highest Love, it is not possible for a human to have MORE compassion than that concept of God

4. therefore if you feel something is morally wrong out of compassion, so does THAT God

5. Omnipresence, try harder to understand that. Harm the least of these and you harm God. Yes, that part is actually in the bible.

6. Free will, yes, free will. We live in a universe where anything goes, where anything that is possible will eventually happen. Every horrible thing. Every beautiful thing. Everything.

7. No one has to justify their belief or worship of God to you. No one. Not a single soul anywhere on this earth has to prove anything to you.

"If you are a Christian or Muslim, please justify why you bend the knee to a God that does not deserve that title."
That's YOUR issue with God, not theirs.

Now then, if you really want to talk God, then you need to be quiet and ask theists what it is that they actually believe in. Each theist, individually, one on one.

I already have. It is some ugly.

For the evils of religion to grow, read any scripture literally.

Any and all harmless beliefs are allowed by Gnostic Christians. We know that any myth can be internalized for good results and as esoteric ecumenists, we enjoy knowledge of all the myths that man has created about Gods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02...list=PLCBF574D

When there is a victim is when that view changes. Then you see why Christianity annihilated Gnostic Christianity. We do not let the evils of forced literalism go unopposed. To a tyrant like Constantine, we were poison. One of his first commands to his new Church was to kill off the free thinkers and of course, his new tool, his Church, did as bid. It was quite a ride for free thought for the next 1,000 years.

How can a Gnostic Christian, --- and any other free thinking moral person, --- not judge other's morals when seeing someone hurt other because of the same Church's teachings today?

Can you ignore such things if you have decent morals? Impossible. Especially with Islam pulling the same murderous, freedom stifling ****.

We must discriminate and judge constantly. Every law is a compulsion on all of us to judge.

It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe. Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2zhlDbMfDg

They also do much harm to their own fellow adherents.

African witches and Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI

Jesus Camp 1of 3
LiveLeak.com - Jesus Camp - Part 1 (3)

Death to Gays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE

For evil to grow my friend, all good people need do is nothing. Fight literalism when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Artie J

But speaking to the concept of evil is simply competition, I don't think that's a complete definition.
Is evil a mental disorder?
Doing wrong to someone else even if there is no survival advantage.
When seeing someone else suffer brings you pleasure. An illogical aberrant mental process, some kind of empathy disconnect in the brain.

I would say that some who are not sane will do evil but we cannot hold them culpable.

Even when we compete, how many of us see the line of evil that continues till someone down the line dies?

I would wager almost none and if they are competing for resources they need to survive, then I do not thing they can be held culpable either as we must promote the survival of the fittest or we all weaken and risk extinction.

Good that you seem to have grasped what I was trying to show.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by juroara

And then you have modern day christians, many of which do not subscribe to old testament God and reject Paulism. So what God do these Christians worship and love? Not one described in this thread. Which is probably why the Christians of this forum aren't participating in this thread....

My analogy is near perfect and it is shame that is keeping so called theists away.

They, cannot justify their thinking.

Even you could not so you went to your other mysticism tract.

BTW, I push the esoteric Jesus quite hard where I post.


This thinking is the Gnostic Christian’s goal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRN...layer_embedded

This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, then you will begin to know the only God you will ever find.

Literalists and churches hate that Jesus but he is the inly worthy Jesus as far as I am concerned.

He is a thinking mans Jesus and the last thing religions want are people who can think.

Regards
DL

Well now you are making sense to me! I wish that was your first post. Nobody has any need for church when you can say I Am That I Am. Hah!

Sadly, I can't even consider fundamentalist christians as real christians, they are just too far off the deep end for me. I mean if they're gonna be that literal, they might as well start preaching that heaven is inside their butt. Or however else they want to literally interpret "heaven is within you".

But I can't complain much. I don't live in bible belt. I just want those who do live in bible belt to know, that is not the end all-be all of christianity.

Originally Posted by Gnostic

I think this all began when the Christian and Muslim version of Eden were called a fall. This is the reversed of the Jewish version and is wrong. Christians and Muslims should have usurped the moral of the story when they usurped and altered the Jewish myths.

I'm not at all familiar with Jewish religious mythology - could you do a brief synapsis of this part? In fact, how does the Muslim version differ as well? A comparison/contrast of the 3 would be much appreciated.

According to my control panel you quoted me on this thread Gnostic, but I don't see the post?

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

According to my control panel you quoted me on this thread Gnostic, but I don't see the post?

posts were taken down and gnostic was asked to repost

Aw man, and I missed it?? Well, thanks for letting me know what happened anyway.

Originally Posted by juroara

Well now you are making sense to me! I wish that was your first post. Nobody has any need for church when you can say I Am That I Am. Hah!

Sadly, I can't even consider fundamentalist christians as real christians, they are just too far off the deep end for me. I mean if they're gonna be that literal, they might as well start preaching that heaven is inside their butt. Or however else they want to literally interpret "heaven is within you".

But I can't complain much. I don't live in bible belt. I just want those who do live in bible belt to know, that is not the end all-be all of christianity.

Let's hope they hear you.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I'm not at all familiar with Jewish religious mythology - could you do a brief synapsis of this part? In fact, how does the Muslim version differ as well? A comparison/contrast of the 3 would be much appreciated.

Something got lost but let me give you this bit that speaks more to the Jewish view. Islam follow close enough to the Christian one that I have not bothers looking for anything short and sweet enough to post. Everything I.ve found to date is too long.

2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

I also have this for the Jewish overall view of their myths.

RaceandHistory.com - Doubting the Story of Exodus

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by gab

posts were taken down and gnostic was asked to repost

Just so you know. I did try to multi-quote today and did all the right moves and it is you system that wont let me.

Do as you will. There is not a think I can do differently.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Just so you know. I did try to multi-quote today and did all the right moves and it is you system that wont let me.

I think you pulling my leg. But I'll humor you, because by god, you will learn how to multiquote : P



1. Icon with plus next to it, the one circled in red, is the elusive "Multi-quote" button. You click on it on the post, from which you want the quote to appear in your reply. If done right, you will see a checkmark appear on the button you just clicked.

2. Scroll down to next post from which you want a quote to appear in your reply and repeat above steps.

3. Keep going like that, till you come to the last post from which you want a quote to appear in your reply.

On this last post, also click the multiquote button and then the button to the left of it - "Reply with quote"

4. A window that opens below now has all quotes that you wanted.

5. Delete from those quotes all irrelevant parts and keep only few most important sentences. DO NOT leave the whole 1/2 page long quote in there.

6. Type up your replies.

7. Hit "post reply".

Please let me know if this doesn't not work for you.

The links aren't working - but I just searched the exact terms and found the page (the 1st one anyway, I'll look for the other one in a bit):

Strange and sombre doctrines have been built on this chapter of the Garden of Eden, such as the Christian doctrine of Original Sin (e.g. ‘In Adam’s fall, we sinned all’—New England Primer. ‘The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself by his own natural strength and good works to faith and calling upon God’—Art X, Free Will, of the Thirty-nine Articles). This Christian dogma of Original Sin is throughout the Middle Ages accompanied by an unbelievable vilification of Woman, as the authoress of death and all our earthly woe. Judaism rejects these doctrines. Man was mortal from the first, and death did not enter the world through the transgression of Eve. Stray Rabbinic utterances to the contrary are merely homiletic, and possess no binding authority in Judaism. There is no loss of the God-likeness of man, nor of man’s ability to do right in the eves of God; and no such loss has been transmitted to his latest descendants. Although a few of the Rabbis occasionally lament Eve’s share in the poisoning of the human race by the Serpent, even they declare that the antidote to such poison has been found at Sinai; rightly holding that the Law of God is the bulwark against the devastations of animalism and godlessness. The Psalmist oftens speak [sic] of sin and guilt: but never is there a reference to this chapter or to what Christian Theology calls ‘The Fall’. One searches in vain the Prayer Book, of even the Days of Penitence, for the slightest echo of the doctrine of the Fall of man. ‘My God, the soul which Thou hast given me is pure,’ is the Jew’s daily morning prayer. ‘Even as the soul is pure when entering upon its earthly career, so can man return it pure to his Maker’ (Midrash).

Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue [see * below], the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants. ‘There is no generation without its Abraham, Moses or Samuel,’ says the Midrash; i.e. each age is capable of realizing the highest potentialities of the moral and spiritual life. Judaism clings to the idea of Progress. The Golden Age of Humanity is not in the past, but in the future (Isaiah II and XI); and all the children of men are destined to help in the establishment of that Kingdom of God on earth. (195–196—emphases in original)

SOURCE

Very interesting! I'm glad you came back and re-posted. I wasn't feeling up to an interminable search through Jewish orthodox beliefs (though I guess it would have been pretty easy if I included the right terms.. )

Here's the second one. Also fascinating stuff. I was already largely aware of this one, as I suspect anyone is who watches NatGeo or the History Channel (before it became the ridiculous joke it is today anyway).

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

The links aren't working - but I just searched the exact terms and found the page (the 1st one anyway, I'll look for the other one in a bit):



SOURCE

Very interesting! I'm glad you came back and re-posted. I wasn't feeling up to an interminable search through Jewish orthodox beliefs (though I guess it would have been pretty easy if I included the right terms.. )

Here's the second one. Also fascinating stuff. I was already largely aware of this one, as I suspect anyone is who watches NatGeo or the History Channel (before it became the ridiculous joke it is today anyway).

Yes. Both of those have opted for the popular and not the accurate.

People may be forcing them to be so poor. I have noted that most intelligent programming does not last too long.

My kingdom for intelligent programs.

Regards
DL